I was referring to the particular shot I posted, in which Ronnie visibly has good abs, not something he's known for, which is why I made a point of saying 'actual abs', because it's a good shot of him. If we are talking this one pose at their respective bests, then you have to look at this pic, and see that his midsection looks good.
I know it's all about what the judges are looking for, that is why I immediately mentioned the whole physique being important in every shot. The shot in question, the front lat spread, Ronnie has Dorian beat on chest size/detail, arm size/detail, delt detail, quad size/detail, and calves obviously not, but you are flat out not being truthful if you think they look "pathetic".
To be honest I'm not sure what weight has to do with this argument at all. So why you throw numbers at me is quite baffling, especially when Dorian never competed at 282 lb. If you are prepared to be awed by off-season size and totally overlook competition dryness and BF levels then I'm not sure what kind of discussion this is. Where do you think a 282lb Dorian would place in the judges eyes at any Mr Olympia with the 15lb or so of excess fat and water? 257lb Ronnie vs 257lb Dorian is interesting, but debating poundage is very intricate and hard to quantify. If Ronnie's waist is smaller doesn't that mean more of his weight is in the desired places like upper and lower body? etc etc
So muscular bulk seems pretty damn close to me.
Dryness goes to Dorian.
Symmetry, I think most people, including judges, would say Ronnie's symmetry is pretty damn spot on in this pic. If you pick fault in his arm proportions then you play with fire given your man's arms. If you think Dorian's quads aren't made to look average by their actual size and by his massive calves, then I suggest looking at him with fresh eyes. 10 years have passed and quad standards have gone up a notch also.
I'm surprised you say Ruhl's latspread is the next best after Dorian, as in the famous freaky NOC 2002 pics you can't even see his lats because his delts and bicep-heavy arms are so big. Symmetry indeed. Talk about cherry picking. Dorian's waist, while not massive at his best is still blocky enough to relegate him below Haney's alien latspread. His lack of quad sweep is highlighted by the wide waist also, they don't flare out like Ronnie's, giving him an inferior X frame appearance. Although powerful looking, he is less aesthetic in this example. You know it to be true.
Finally, of the retaliation pics you posted, only 1 was from a contest. Judges cannot mark physiques 3 weeks out in black and white. Please stop posting pics from studios and ones which are not in colour. You degrade only yourself, and I would prefer to debate with a fair and worthy opponent.
Regards,
I was referring to the particular shot I posted, in which Ronnie visibly has good abs, not something he's known for, which is why I made a point of saying 'actual abs', because it's a good shot of him. If we are talking this one pose at their respective bests, then you have to look at this pic, and see that his midsection looks good.
you're just repeating what you said before
I know it's all about what the judges are looking for, that is why I immediately mentioned the whole physique being important in every shot. The shot in question, the front lat spread, Ronnie has Dorian beat on chest size/detail, arm size/detail, delt detail, quad size/detail, and calves obviously not, but you are flat out not being truthful if you think they look "pathetic".
he beats Dorian in chest size and detail? how do you know? you're solely basing this on pics alone in which a slew of people already explained pictures don't do him justice and he looks 20 times better in person so unless you seen them both live and in person well dismiss as ignorant , Arm size? you mean biceps size? and you can't tell the size of each compared to the other based on two separate pics especially if Dorian's much heavier , same with quad size and detail and calves ? give me a break they're pathetic ONLY Coleman fans will try and minimize how bad they are because of their agenda , they lack shape the classic diamond shape , they're high to boot , they lack any separation of the gastrocnemious inner & outer heads ontop of being asymmetrical now normally I wouldn't bring this up because nothing in nature if truly symmetrical but Coleman fans like to harp on Dorian's ' asymmetries '
and what you just did is cherry-picked ALL the things you think he wins in this pose it doesn't work that way
To be honest I'm not sure what weight has to do with this argument at all. So why you throw numbers at me is quite baffling, especially when Dorian never competed at 282 lb. If you are prepared to be awed by off-season size and totally overlook competition dryness and BF levels then I'm not sure what kind of discussion this is. Where do you think a 282lb Dorian would place in the judges eyes at any Mr Olympia with the 15lb or so of excess fat and water? 257lb Ronnie vs 257lb Dorian is interesting, but debating poundage is very intricate and hard to quantify. If Ronnie's waist is smaller doesn't that mean more of his weight is in the desired places like upper and lower body? etc etc
What does weight have to do with the bodybuilding criteria?
it doesn't matter if he competed at 282 pounds there is an outstanding shot of him at that weight and I can use it to prove my point , the argument was at their best NOT at their best contest showing which I already gave examples of how 1993/1995 Olympia would still beat him.
A 282 pound Dorian would absolutely blow away everyone at the Olympia and you're assuming he's carrying 15 pounds of fat & water and you know what they say about that ! is he as hard and as dry as he was at the 1995 Mr Olympia? NO but it's still unmatched at that weight Kevin Horton said already his conditioning at that weight would have him top 3 in terms of conditioning and unmatched in size and thickness this speaks volumes
And again a 257 pound Dorian isn't the same as a 257 pound Ronnie , there is a big difference between being 257 pounds and hard as nails ( density ) and dry as a dessert , Ronnie perhaps matched Yates for this conditioning in 2001 & 1998 but NOT 1999 it's a FACT , so already down on density & drynes and balance & proportion , factor in posing & presentation and you have another Yates victory
Symmetry, I think most people, including judges, would say Ronnie's symmetry is pretty damn spot on in this pic. If you pick fault in his arm proportions then you play with fire given your man's arms. If you think Dorian's quads aren't made to look average by their actual size and by his massive calves, then I suggest looking at him with fresh eyes. 10 years have passed and quad standards have gone up a notch also.
Dorian a JUDGE FYI has already said he has better balance & proportion compared to Ronnie , so I beg to differ and keep cherry picking while ignoring ALL the aspects of the criteria , torso length , arm length leg length , upper/lower balance , proportion etc
10 years has passed and to this day NO ONE matched Dorian's combo for density , dryness and size some things change this hasn't and ironically you're posting a pic from you guessed it , 10 years ago
the sport has progressed from Dorian but not Ronnie , see hypocrite
I'm surprised you say Ruhl's latspread is the next best after Dorian, as in the famous freaky NOC 2002 pics you can't even see his lats because his delts and bicep-heavy arms are so big. Symmetry indeed. Talk about cherry picking. Dorian's waist, while not massive at his best is still blocky enough to relegate him below Haney's alien latspread. His lack of quad sweep is highlighted by the wide waist also, they don't flare out like Ronnie's, giving him an inferior X frame appearance. Although powerful looking, he is less aesthetic in this example. You know it to be true.
You're still cherry picking even compared to Haney Dorian has clear advantages , you think Haney's flaws are relegated moot by a small waist and hips?
I could tear his apart but his works for reasons I could explain but wont . ANd I said Rhul's came close NOT surpasses for matches and I always laugh when people type Aesthetic and Ronnie it validates my point on how ignorant you people are , more ' aesthetic ' than Yates but please , stop acting like Ronnie was truly aesthetic in insults Labrada , Paris and Reeves . you need more than a small waist & hips to be aesthetic , the hallmark muscles of an aesthetic physique are calves , abs and delts how the fuck can you be aesthetic when you're missing TWO out of three?
Finally, of the retaliation pics you posted, only 1 was from a contest. Judges cannot mark physiques 3 weeks out in black and white. Please stop posting pics from studios and ones which are not in colour. You degrade only yourself, and I would prefer to debate with a fair and worthy opponent.
Again the debate was AT THEIR BEST I'll post ANY picture of Dorian at his best showings contests or not . and those black & white shots were impromptu for Dorian's personal use ONLY these aren't professional studio shots , in fact the photographer said the photo was technically ' terrible ' and the fact that you hate them speaks volumes on how much of an impact they still have 10 years later
I'll post any picture I want that shows how impressive he is if you don't like it I don't care if you approve or think it ' degrades ' me LMAO this isn't a debate , this is me correcting you on how contests are judged , the debate can never be ' fair ' because there are to many intangibles etc
I will give you respect for at least trying to defend your position intelligently without resorting to baseless attacks and diversionary tactics for that you get kudos
