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Author Topic: CYTOMEL T3 "Natural Shut Down Myth"  (Read 10022 times)
Mega Man
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« on: February 27, 2008, 01:42:22 AM »

I got this from cytomel profile....

http://www.steroid.com/Cytomel.php

Going off cytomel

"Finally, I would like to address the issue of recovery of your natural thyroid function after you stop taking cytomel. The horror stories of people on permanent thyroid replacement just aren´t true. I remember a few years ago, the rumor was circulating that the current Ms.Fitness had permanently shut off her thyroid gland, and was now fat and on thyroid hormone permanently. This is just another horror story based in nothing but conjecture and rumor, the studies I´ve looked at have shown people recovering their thyroid hormone relatively quickly (within months, at most) after going off of several YEARS (!) of thyroid replacement therapy (10)(11). I speculate that you can optimize your metabolic rate with Cytomel for 9-10 months a year, and just normalize yourself for 2-3 months (perhaps the winter, when you are mostly covered up), and then go right back on. Some people in the studies I read were on T3 for 30 years and recovered their natural thyroid function within short order. I think we can safely spend an athletic career using Cytomel 9-10 months out of the year, and just taking those few months off to normalize ourselves. Is this aggressive? Yes. Is this unsafe? NO."

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TNTBOOM
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2008, 07:31:28 AM »

I got this from cytomel profile....

http://www.steroid.com/Cytomel.php

Going off cytomel

"Finally, I would like to address the issue of recovery of your natural thyroid function after you stop taking cytomel. The horror stories of people on permanent thyroid replacement just aren´t true. I remember a few years ago, the rumor was circulating that the current Ms.Fitness had permanently shut off her thyroid gland, and was now fat and on thyroid hormone permanently. This is just another horror story based in nothing but conjecture and rumor, the studies I´ve looked at have shown people recovering their thyroid hormone relatively quickly (within months, at most) after going off of several YEARS (!) of thyroid replacement therapy (10)(11). I speculate that you can optimize your metabolic rate with Cytomel for 9-10 months a year, and just normalize yourself for 2-3 months (perhaps the winter, when you are mostly covered up), and then go right back on. Some people in the studies I read were on T3 for 30 years and recovered their natural thyroid function within short order. I think we can safely spend an athletic career using Cytomel 9-10 months out of the year, and just taking those few months off to normalize ourselves. Is this aggressive? Yes. Is this unsafe? NO."



I've been always been afraid of using this compunds for fear of messing with my thyroid permanently .... for some reason i rather run the risk of balls shrinking than thyroid problems.... Huh Huh


but im thinking about it thou
 Grin Grin
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...............
Fulgorre
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2008, 07:06:29 PM »

Hope not because I'm using it lol
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Vet
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2008, 10:40:44 PM »

I got this from cytomel profile....

http://www.steroid.com/Cytomel.php

Going off cytomel

"Finally, I would like to address the issue of recovery of your natural thyroid function after you stop taking cytomel. The horror stories of people on permanent thyroid replacement just aren´t true. I remember a few years ago, the rumor was circulating that the current Ms.Fitness had permanently shut off her thyroid gland, and was now fat and on thyroid hormone permanently. This is just another horror story based in nothing but conjecture and rumor, the studies I´ve looked at have shown people recovering their thyroid hormone relatively quickly (within months, at most) after going off of several YEARS (!) of thyroid replacement therapy (10)(11). I speculate that you can optimize your metabolic rate with Cytomel for 9-10 months a year, and just normalize yourself for 2-3 months (perhaps the winter, when you are mostly covered up), and then go right back on. Some people in the studies I read were on T3 for 30 years and recovered their natural thyroid function within short order. I think we can safely spend an athletic career using Cytomel 9-10 months out of the year, and just taking those few months off to normalize ourselves. Is this aggressive? Yes. Is this unsafe? NO."




I find everything above very, very hard to believe. 
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Arnold jr
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2008, 11:05:49 PM »


I find everything above very, very hard to believe. 
If it makes you feel better, the above is backed by the "New England Journal of Medicine" & "The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism." This info was pulled form there not out of thin air.

Second thing...if it were not true, I'd be as fat as a cow and so would the people I do prep for.

From what I've gathered and from what I've seen, there is only one person who typically has bad problems after use of liothyronine sodium....and that problem is...once they come off their diets they typically eat like a pig for wks or even months on end...self control is thrown out the window. tell me, how could one not expect to get fat doing this? I Know, it's an easy out to just blame the t-3.
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« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2008, 11:43:21 PM »

If it makes you feel better, the above is backed by the "New England Journal of Medicine" & "The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism." This info was pulled form there not out of thin air.

Second thing...if it were not true, I'd be as fat as a cow and so would the people I do prep for.

From what I've gathered and from what I've seen, there is only one person who typically has bad problems after use of liothyronine sodium....and that problem is...once they come off their diets they typically eat like a pig for wks or even months on end...self control is thrown out the window. tell me, how could one not expect to get fat doing this? I Know, it's an easy out to just blame the t-3.

Yeah, I have to think through the human hormone cascade involving T3, T4, and TSH carefully before I say anything other than I find it hard to believe.  That pathway is fairly straightforward, but I have to think about it so I dont' get things screwed up..........

Right now, I keep going back to birds and dogs, where a few years ago there were a couple of advocates of putting them on thyroid supplementation for lipoma (fatty tumors) and obesity issues.  What happened was they would drop weight rapidly while on thyroid supplements (just like humans taking T3), then have a rebound effect of MASSIVE weight gain to the point of morbid obesity as soon as they reached a target weight and the thyroid supplementation was discontinued (Like the reports in humans taking T3).   Some of these animals then needed permenant thyroid medication even though they were not hypothyroid prior to the weight loss. 

The other thing I'm thinking of right now is Hashimotos disease, which is autoimmune degeneration of the thyroid gland and not related to supplementation in the face of a normal thyroid.


I just need to sit down at some point when I'm a bit more awake than I am now and think the pathways through.......       
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« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2008, 01:52:03 PM »

If it makes you feel better, the above is backed by the "New England Journal of Medicine" & "The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism." This info was pulled form there not out of thin air.

Second thing...if it were not true, I'd be as fat as a cow and so would the people I do prep for.

From what I've gathered and from what I've seen, there is only one person who typically has bad problems after use of liothyronine sodium....and that problem is...once they come off their diets they typically eat like a pig for wks or even months on end...self control is thrown out the window. tell me, how could one not expect to get fat doing this? I Know, it's an easy out to just blame the t-3.

Basically they're eating like that because they're used to it eh?
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Arnold jr
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« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2008, 03:22:51 PM »

Basically they're eating like that because they're used to it eh?
Basically they eat that way because they have been dieting so long that afterwards they lose all self control
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« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2008, 04:31:13 PM »

Basically they eat that way because they have been dieting so long that afterwards they lose all self control

I see. I know a few guys who take T3 just so they can eat like shit & not worry so much.
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Emmortal
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« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2008, 04:36:57 PM »

I see. I know a few guys who take T3 just so they can eat like shit & not worry so much.

Hahaha. Fucking lame.
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Rimbaud
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« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2008, 07:44:53 PM »

Hahaha. Fucking lame.

True. I sometimes wish I could do that though. However, the sides of T3 tend to be too much for me. Even 25mcg a day gives me a horrible headache.
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candidizzle
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 01:20:36 PM »

why was my post deleted?
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2008, 07:09:21 PM »

why was my post deleted?

Why posting under two different account?
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2008, 08:21:19 PM »

Ok, I think I've finally thought this through and have it figured out.  Its more complex than my first thoughts were.  I also think its still possible to screw yourself up, but I think its less likely than what I initially thought. 
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candidizzle
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2008, 08:33:43 PM »

Ok, I think I've finally thought this through and have it figured out.  Its more complex than my first thoughts were.  I also think its still possible to screw yourself up, but I think its less likely than what I initially thought. 
i posted this before and it got deleted...   your not going to mess yourself up; i fact, t3 usage will speed your metabolism once you stop using it and take a few days to allow your natural t3 to start pumping again..

"Since long term use of T-3 /L-triiodothyronine will lead to thyroid function suppression the issue of rebound should be briefly discussed. It is commonly stated that synthetic thyroid hormone abuse will lead to permanent thyroid gland dysfunction. Though it is definitely a physiological possibility, I have not yet found a case study to support this statement. However, there is a common occurrence of thyroid gland/function rebound in natural endogenous thyroid hormone production. It seems that it was common for individuals to realize an "increase" in endogenous thyroid hormone production of 120-130 % within 3-15 days after drug discontinuance. This means an individual would commonly see an increase in their thyroid hormone production of 20- 30% above their normal pre-drug administration levels, in many cases."


- http://www.steroidsprofiles.com/steroid/info/60

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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2008, 09:45:25 PM »

 
i posted this before and it got deleted...   your not going to mess yourself up; i fact, t3 usage will speed your metabolism once you stop using it and take a few days to allow your natural t3 to start pumping again..

"Since long term use of T-3 /L-triiodothyronine will lead to thyroid function suppression the issue of rebound should be briefly discussed. It is commonly stated that synthetic thyroid hormone abuse will lead to permanent thyroid gland dysfunction. Though it is definitely a physiological possibility, I have not yet found a case study to support this statement. However, there is a common occurrence of thyroid gland/function rebound in natural endogenous thyroid hormone production. It seems that it was common for individuals to realize an "increase" in endogenous thyroid hormone production of 120-130 % within 3-15 days after drug discontinuance. This means an individual would commonly see an increase in their thyroid hormone production of 20- 30% above their normal pre-drug administration levels, in many cases."


- http://www.steroidsprofiles.com/steroid/info/60



Yeah, i saw that post the other day.   I think that "rebound efffect" makes absolutely no sense what so ever physiologically and is more than likely pure bullshit.  The recovery from thyroid shutdown isn't something that happens in just a few days if there is going to be recovery.  It may take weeks to months, especially from severe effects like myxedema.  The thing you have to consider is what actually shuts down thyroid hormone production. 

Thyroid production is straightforward, but it’s a multistep process:
1:  the hypothalamus in the brain senses a low level of circulating thyroid hormones----T4 has the greatest effect with this, that’s why T4 is used in patients with thyroid carcinoma to shut down production by normal cells prior to treatment.  T3 isn't used for shutdown because of the greater negative side effects (remember T3 is more biologically active) and the fact that the hypothalamus is more responsive to T4.  By using T4, there will be shutdown of production of both T3 and T4 and Deiodinase will limit the production of T3 to what is needed by the body. 

2: the hypothalamus secretes Thyroid Releasing Hormone into the blood which travels to the pituitary gland

3: the pituitary gland secretes Thyroid Stimulating Hormone, which is the commonly measured hormone for determining thyroid function in humans (and dogs). 

4: TSH travels through the blood stream to the thyroid gland where it stimulates the secretion of T4 (about 85-90%) and T3(10-15% depending on the reference you use).  T4 is in essence a prohormone, which will be converted to the biologically active T3 by Deiodinase enzymes in specific tissues---muscle, liver, kidney and thyroid gland.

5: The T4 will feedback to the hypothalamus causing inhibition of TRH, thus shutting down Thyroid production.  This is the only feedback mechanism of Thyroid production----other than conversion of T4 to T3 by deiodinase.  T3 is the biologically active form in tissues, it has a minor feedback effect on the hypothalamus in most individuals, but not near as much as T4.  That said, there are some specific individuals who are sensitive to T3 at a more significant level than the average person.  These are more than likely the ones who experience a “permanent” shutdown---much like those individuals who experience testosterone production shutdown secondary to taking Androstenidione and DHEA.  This doesn’t happen in a large number of people, but it apparently occurs.   Other hormones such as cortisol, testosterone and estrogen can also feed back on the hypothalamus, which can decrease TRH production.  If there is complete hypothalamic shutdown, that person stands the risk of never regaining function.   Typically after a period of time with a deficiency of these hormones, the hypothalamus will regain some, maybe not all, but some function.   The hypothalamus begins secreting TRH, which stimulates TSH and so on.   Obviously, if there is any type of inhibition of the pituitary (ie decreased pituitary function), there will not be normal thyroid hormone production. 

Things get complicated with the formation of Reverse T3.  This hormone is essentially the same as T3, except it has no biological activity. This can lead to symptoms associated with Hypothyroidism, but normal TRH and TSH levels because of the feedback by T4.  Basically the body will form RT3 primarily from T4. 
 
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Rimbaud
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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2008, 06:39:01 AM »

i posted this before and it got deleted...   your not going to mess yourself up; i fact, t3 usage will speed your metabolism once you stop using it and take a few days to allow your natural t3 to start pumping again..

"Since long term use of T-3 /L-triiodothyronine will lead to thyroid function suppression the issue of rebound should be briefly discussed. It is commonly stated that synthetic thyroid hormone abuse will lead to permanent thyroid gland dysfunction. Though it is definitely a physiological possibility, I have not yet found a case study to support this statement. However, there is a common occurrence of thyroid gland/function rebound in natural endogenous thyroid hormone production. It seems that it was common for individuals to realize an "increase" in endogenous thyroid hormone production of 120-130 % within 3-15 days after drug discontinuance. This means an individual would commonly see an increase in their thyroid hormone production of 20- 30% above their normal pre-drug administration levels, in many cases."


- http://www.steroidsprofiles.com/steroid/info/60



Why are you posting on the candizzle handle again? Why do you use two if you're able to log in under both?
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Mega Man
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2008, 11:30:22 PM »

Here is a post from the site admin at anabolic extreme....

The question was.......

"MT, how long does it usually take for the body to get back to normal after several months of continous thyroid usage? Also, does gugglesterone help in restoring normal thyroid functions?"


His reply to the question was.......

"I remember when guggle first appeared; it appeared first here on AE via Jason's relationship with Syntrax.

In the intervening years, I consider gugglesterone a waste.

But worry not. Longterm thyroid med use is nothing like the same effect which AAS has on the HTPA. If your thyroid system is healthy, to begin with, my observation is that thyroid recovery should be complete in 3-4 weeks, max"


Here is another post he made about t3........

"To answer the other question about t3 ramping, the t3 ramp down, at cycle end, is an old and obsolete concept. It's exactly the same concept that they used to preach, when it comes to AAS. The idea is that, if you ramp down, your body will somehow be stimulated to recover more rapidly.

Well, it's totally wrong, because the notion is based upon the concept that the body functions in a ramping response. But it doesn't. What happens is, as soon as you cross the threshold that the body recognized an exogenous source, there is total shutdown. And, at the other end, until the body recognizes that the exogenous source is gone, there is no recovery. So, all during that ramp down, at cycle end, the body is still seeing exogenous t3, so the system is still shut down. There is no ramp up response. In fact, all you are accomplishing with a ramp-down at cycle end is to delay your natty recovery. You are making it worse for yourself.

So, just as we go off AAS cold turkey, you also should go off t3 cold turkey. There will be no difference in your natty thyroid system recovery.

As for low dosage t3, there is no such thing as using an exogenous t3 which will not suppress your natty thyroid system. As with AAS, if it is an effective dosage to your body, then your body will shut it's own system down. These people, who think they are so clever that they can outsmart a control system that has evolved over millenia, simply do not understand how the body works.

Some people do experience a bodyfat rebound coming off t3, while others do not. You will have to be careful to keep your carb intake lower and also be sure that your carb intake avoids simple carbs, to avoid insulin spikes.

As for the crash, again, it all depends upon how your own body responds and recovers. If your body is slow to respond and recover, then you may experience some kind of crash. But it is not anything serious or devastating, so don't worry.
"
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BigIronMike25
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2008, 05:59:28 AM »

If it makes you feel better, the above is backed by the "New England Journal of Medicine" & "The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism." This info was pulled form there not out of thin air.

Second thing...if it were not true, I'd be as fat as a cow and so would the people I do prep for.

From what I've gathered and from what I've seen, there is only one person who typically has bad problems after use of liothyronine sodium....and that problem is...once they come off their diets they typically eat like a pig for wks or even months on end...self control is thrown out the window. tell me, how could one not expect to get fat doing this? I Know, it's an easy out to just blame the t-3.

EXCELLENT POINT bro.....Id be fat as shit if T3 completely shut down the natural thyroid function....it works on the neg feedback loop, which "normalizes" after staying OFF for a few wks!!!
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i
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2008, 02:32:14 AM »

This was posted by my buddie Raver yrs ago but still good info. Great read!!

This is one of my favorite articles. Here is what I have of it. I thought it would be a nice addition

Cytomel (Mexican Cynomel) Synthetic T-3 amd Clenbuterol Stacking - A Quick Weight Loss Solution
This is to be a far from scientific article, one based, rather, in practical experience in losing weight and helping others to lose weight. We are not, on the average, concerned with obese individuals, but those who have packed on an additional 12-25 pounds beyond what was expected in a traditional steroid cycle, and the weeks beyond.

Not all of us will gain this type of weight during a cycle, but those of us who use a high protein / high calorie diet in conjunction with heavy weight lifting, accompanied by a medium to high dosed androgenic (i.e., Dianabol, Testosterone, Trenbolone (Finaplix or Component T-H)) steroid cycle, will almost always pack on an additional 6-20 pounds of pure lard. Granted that Burger King, Hooters, and Papadeux are not on the traditional bodybuilders menu, many of us are either forced, or by personal inclination, choose to indulge in calorie/fat bombs in order to provide the necessary building blocks for muscle.
Who, after all, can subsist on 3-5 protein shakes a day? I certainly can't, and from what I've seen of the advice on the boards, a Whopper or 2 every other day seems to be the prescribed regimen for gaining LBM - the prized Lean Body Mass.
Let's look at that paradigm for a moment - LBM. Sure and granted, we all seek this Holy Grail of Bodybuilding, but too many novices and mid-level bodybuilders alike sacrifice gaining pure muscle mass, in favor of gaining 2-6 pounds of LBM with a $400 - $1100 steriod cycle - all because they want to stay lean.
I might be wrong (it's been known to happen, albeit once a year or so), but if I'm going to invest that kind of dough, I want to see some by God muscle appear. In order to build the kind of muscle I expect from a cycle, I need to consume 4000 - 6000 calories a day, depending upon what I'm doing (Touch Football, Softball, or Indoor Soccer season). Those calories don't ALL go towards LBM, many (sometimes too many) go towards pure lard.
Don't get me wrong, the intensity you apply in the gym does, in fact, burn some serious fat, while at the same time channeling blood, nutrients, and the cherished PUMP to your muscles. However, if you intend to gain serious mass, and here I give kudos to the WarPig, you'll bulk and bloat.
Damnit, the bloat. We don't want to look like Beachballs, we want to look like Footballs - tight, tapered, lean in all the right places. How to eat the necessary calories, the necessary protein, the absolutely essential, energy giving Carbohydrates, without the dreaded bloat?

Here's where the first application of T-3 comes in. I won't quote any studies (there are few), but from personal experience, and the experience of those amatuer and mid-level bodybuilders I've helped, a 25-50mcg dosage of T-3, per day, will help to reduce bloating and water retention, while at the same time enhancing the effect of whatever steriod (androgenic or anabolic) the user chooses. It won't, by any means, keep the mass from piling on, but it will eliminate the dreaded moon face and the hideous stomach bloat.

The second application of T-3 is intended to quickly reduce the blubber produced by a serious mass cycle, and ALWAYS, always includes Clenbuterol. Say, for example, you've done a Raver Cycle - 2g Test, 600mg Deca, and 50-75mg Dbol a day, for 12 weeks. You've devoured 3 Cornish Game Hens at a meal, wolfed down a double Whopper with cheese, but no Mayo every other day, and forced yourself to eat spaghetti with meatballs, cottage cheese, herb-seasoned chicken breasts, pork tenderloins, meatloaf, oatmeal, grits, and eggs, eggs, eggs, tuna tuna tuna, along with 2-3 daily protein shakes.
Trust me - you're fat. You look big as shit in the mirror, but you have no abs, no separation, and no definition. The remedy?
Weigh yourself. For every pound, use 1mcg of T-3. If you weigh 180, and you look fat, use 175mcg of T-3. If you weigh 250, and you look fat, use 250mcg of T-3. Round the dosage down to the nearest 25mcg, and stack Clenbuterol at 5-12 tabs a day for 6 weeks. Follow a CKD diet, such as Body Opus or Animalobolics, do 15-20 minutes of Cardio for the first 3 weeks, and watch the fat shed.

T-3 by itself produces sweat like there's no tomorrow - you'll have wet spots under your arms, under your pecs, in the crack of your ass, and, on your forehead. You might get the shakes.
T-3, stacked with Clenbuterol, will give you all of the above mentioned sweats, along with the shakes...your hands, your legs (stairs are really a bitch), and your neck, on occasion. If you have a job like mine, where the shakes are undesirable, use a potassium supplement or eat 2-3 bananas a day, it will alleviate them.

In summary, T-3 has two uses - eliminating bloat and water retention during a cycle, and rapid weight loss after a cycle. One of the things to remember while using this drug is that it DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE between LBM and pure fat - it eats tissue, period. I used T-3 exactly twice before figuring out that it should never be used without at least 400mg of Testosterone, preferably, in dieting mode, Propionate. A post cycle regimen of 1mcg T-3 per pound of bodyweight, along with Clenbuterol and a 50-100mg / day dosage of Test Prop, will work absolute wonders.
And now, for the Raver challenge (the third in 14 months) - If anyone - ANYONE can produce scientific, verifiable evidence that synthetic T-3 (Cytomel, Cynomel) causes thyroid shutdown in humans after prolonged, high dose use - I'll send them $100. A major medical journal, a study by a top 10 ranked pharmaceutical firm, or verifiable results of a personal medical evaluation (verifiable via documentation and confirmation by the physician) are acceptable. Barring that, let's not hear any further argument about the horrible side effects of T-3
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