Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros

[HowieW]

1. Various steroids and HGh class drugs, etc are a definite advantage in bodybuilding contests.
2. Without any viable drug testing program, pros have to use these drugs to be able to compete on a level playing field.

3. Much of this kind of drug use is against the federal drug laws.

4. Thus, in order to compete as top pro and do well, you are REQUIRED to break the current drug laws.

Please don't refute it based on something other than THIS legal issue.I have heard some defend drug use in the IFBB pros as "what the fans want" which is PERSONAL opinion. It doesn't change the LEGAL reality.
If you drive at 100 mph down a US highway, you can't use " most want to drive this fast" as defense for breaking the speed limit.
Thanks Howard

[columbusdude82]

Your premises 1 - 3 are correct.

Conclusion 4 follows immediately from premises 1 - 3.

Your argument is correct and valid.

Congrats Howie. You can pass a freshman philosophy class

[webcake]

That was very enlightening Howard, thankyou

[MAXX]

1. Various steroids and HGh class drugs, etc are a definite advantage in bodybuilding contests.
2. Without any viable drug testing program, pros have to use these drugs to be able to compete on a level playing field.

3. Much of this kind of drug use is against the federal drug laws.

4. Thus, in order to compete as top pro and do well, you are REQUIRED to break the current drug laws.

Please don't refute it based on something other than THIS legal issue.I have heard some defend drug use in the IFBB pros as "what the fans want" which is PERSONAL opinion. It doesn't change the LEGAL reality.
If you drive at 100 mph down a US highway, you can't use " most want to drive this fast" as defense for breaking the speed limit.
Thanks Howard

thanks!



captain obvious to the rescue

[HowieW]

ok, I know this is obvious and that is why I posted it.
The big question is, why doesn't anyone care?Especially the actual pro bodybuilders that are taking the lions share of the legal risks here.
Look, I personally don't think personal steroid use should be illegal.
My concern is for the pros I admire. Under the current lack of testing policy, the IFBB is essentially makes it mandatory to take illegal drugs, yet they have no intention of trying to change thr drug laws as they now exist. The fans get a good show and bigger , better pro on stage. The promoters can sell more tickets. At the end of the day, after the dust clears, it is the pro bodybuilder who suffers the legal and health risks and finacial burdens of extreme drug use.
One would think , that based on these negative aspects, most pros would lobby for a complete change in policy. I have met many of the pros and find some of them to very smart ,sensible people.
I once considered trying to go hardcore and making all or none run for a pro card. I then weighed the cost-risk/ bennefit ratio of extreme bodybuilding drug use vs the possible bennefits and concluded it was too skewed to the negative side.To me, it wlould be like buying a house and not bothering to get insurance . Am I just wrong or misguided here? What am I missing?
I just don't "get" the whole attraction to extreme drug use considering all the negative aspects?? sorry?
Howard

[Rimbaud]

The IFBB has a drug testing policy. 

[Royalty]

Do you guys think that Jay, Ronnie, or other top guys have at least some drug access via legal prescription?

[HowieW]

The IFBB has a drug testing policy. 

It does and THAT is part of my issue. Imagine this( idea based on something Ramano wrote in MD years ago):
The Team U winner gets his/her pro card and competes in a pro show as a clean bodybuilder.
They don't place in the money and then file suit against the IFBB pro div. The suit would be based on the idea that the IFBB failed to enforce its' own rules and failed to provide a fair venue of competition to a pro athlete that obeyed the actual, established, written rules.
What do you think?
Howard

[HowieW]

Do you guys think that Jay, Ronnie, or other top guys have at least some drug access via legal prescription?

It  is possible. But Is suspect that much of it is "off the record". No way would a legit MD prescibe the doseage these guys use.
Plus, the IFBB has 48 pgs of rules against it.

[Rimbaud]

It does and THAT is part of my issue. Imagine this( idea based on something Ramano wrote in MD years ago):
The Team U winner gets his/her pro card and competes in a pro show as a clean bodybuilder.
They don't place in the money and then file suit against the IFBB pro div. The suit would be based on the idea that the IFBB failed to enforce its' own rules and failed to provide a fair venue of competition to a pro athlete that obeyed the actual, established, written rules.
What do you think?
Howard

It's simple...they pick & choose when to use it & when not to. That's all....you think guys like Ronnie, Jay, Dexter, etc are tested? No. They may test the random forth tier guy or something (if that). But then again the rules regarding drug testing are no different then the other rules. They'll pick & choose when to enforce those too.

[HowieW]

It's simple...they pick & choose when to use it & when not to. That's all....you think guys like Ronnie, Jay, Dexter, etc are tested? No. They may test the random forth tier guy or something (if that). But then again the rules regarding drug testing are no different then the other rules. They'll pick & choose when to enforce those too.

Not really. The last time they actually tested was in 2001 and busted Jay for the diuretics ( he was a controversial 2nd behind an off Ronnie, remember). Jay is a smart guy and challenged the Dq ruling of the IFBB. The IFBb backed off and claimed it wad due to the fact that the testing was not done in an IOC approved lab.
I supect it had a lot more to do with the fact that the IFBB pro div didn't want their scam drug testing policy exposed in open court in front of a NON bodybuilding judge.
Imagine the judge asking to see the number of steroid tests on the record over the last 20 years ??!!!

[LATS]

 i have a news flash for ya.. many pros have prescripts for gear use.. that has been stated many times.. so in your logic, if a pro just goes to the uk , mexico, south america, or many other euro countries it is ok in your book?.. btw, it is also illegal to smoke pot, drive under the influence, ect ect.. yet, millions do everyday..

[Vince B]

Body building died when those drugs became necessary. Today it is lunacy to compete as a pro. The risks are too high. The IFBB refuses to do the right thing because they evolved over decades fearing that another organization would get the drug users. This thinking remains today.

For some bizarre reason a politician can co-host a contest without drug testing of competitors. How is that possible in America?

If anyone wants to see how crazy this sport is go read Nasser's interview and what he experienced with a shoulder infection and how he coped with that issue. If you didn't read it you would not believe what a so-called intelligent bodybuilder did. If his example is typical of what the pros are doing then this sport is totally sick.

Come to think about it there isn't much talk about training theories anymore. People now believe you need the latest drugs to compete at the highest level. Quite frankly, I think all bodybuilders should be ashamed of what has happened to this sport.

[HowieW]

Body building died when those drugs became necessary. Today it is lunacy to compete as a pro. The risks are too high. The IFBB refuses to do the right thing because they evolved over decades fearing that another organization would get the drug users. This thinking remains today.

For some bizarre reason a politician can co-host a contest without drug testing of competitors. How is that possible in America?

If anyone wants to see how crazy this sport is go read Nasser's interview and what he experienced with a shoulder infection and how he coped with that issue. If you didn't read it you would not believe what a so-called intelligent bodybuilder did. If his example is typical of what the pros are doing then this sport is totally sick.

Come to think about it there isn't much talk about training theories anymore. People now believe you need the latest drugs to compete at the highest level. Quite frankly, I think all bodybuilders should be ashamed of what has happened to this sport.

well said here Vince!

[HowieW]

i have a news flash for ya.. many pros have prescripts for gear use.. that has been stated many times.. so in your logic, if a pro just goes to the uk , mexico, south america, or many other euro countries it is ok in your book?.. btw, it is also illegal to smoke pot, drive under the influence, ect ect.. yet, millions do everyday..

In all honesty your counter point is classic "bait and switch". It doesn't change the basic idea that to compete in bodybuilding as a pro today, you are REQUIRED to break the US Federal  drug laws, say nothing of the 48 pgs of rules the IFBB pro dov has against the use of these same drugs!
This is like trying to compare, driving on the German Autobahn at 100 mph vs a US highway.
Plus, c'mon, if the current drug use was ok and 100% legal, why would be such a hushed up topic and why won't any IFBB official talk openly about it?For the record, again....I think drug use should be LEGAL, but I don't make or enforce the law!

[Rimbaud]

Not really. The last time they actually tested was in 2001 and busted Jay for the diuretics ( he was a controversial 2nd behind an off Ronnie, remember). Jay is a smart guy and challenged the Dq ruling of the IFBB. The IFBb backed off and claimed it wad due to the fact that the testing was not done in an IOC approved lab.
I supect it had a lot more to do with the fact that the IFBB pro div didn't want their scam drug testing policy exposed in open court in front of a NON bodybuilding judge.
Imagine the judge asking to see the number of steroid tests on the record over the last 20 years ??!!!

That was the last drug test we've heard of. I'm sure Chick will bring out a few more. I'm just saying they probably randomly test a few hear & there (so they can say they're doing it). Who knows? I'm about 100% positive no one will admit or give a reason why they don't test the top tier guys with regularity.

[AVBG]

What I find interesting is that the pro's (I've spoken to) is that they cannot wait for retirement so they can get off the drugs they're on.

[Vince B]

It isn't just the drugs. Competitors are injecting substances to make the muscles look bigger. That isn't bodybuilding. Women can have silicon boobs. That isn't natural. Cheating is allowed on so many levels. As spokesman Bob C said, if it isn't obvious then it is okay.

Anyone who has been around for decades knows that the IFBB fears other organizations. That is why they came down hard on those who 'defected'. Whoever has the best competitors controls bodybuilding. Thus, drugs have been part of the equation. If you drug test those competitors will go elsewhere.

I don't understand why Ben Weider was given a lifetime achievement award. He failed to get bodybuilding accepted by the Olympic committee. He formed an organization with rules but doesn't always enforce those rules. Ben did a lot but he also allowed bodybuilding to be contaminated and distorted beyond what he originally envisioned. I would be ashamed at what the sport has become if I were associated with running the IFBB. The buck has to stop somewhere and both Arnold and Ben have not done the right thing. Look at the result of their inaction and tolerance for drugs and injecting substances to make the muscles look bigger.

[Van_Bilderass]

Body building died when those drugs became necessary. Today it is lunacy to compete as a pro. The risks are too high. The IFBB refuses to do the right thing because they evolved over decades fearing that another organization would get the drug users. This thinking remains today.

For some bizarre reason a politician can co-host a contest without drug testing of competitors. How is that possible in America?

If anyone wants to see how crazy this sport is go read Nasser's interview and what he experienced with a shoulder infection and how he coped with that issue. If you didn't read it you would not believe what a so-called intelligent bodybuilder did. If his example is typical of what the pros are doing then this sport is totally sick.

Come to think about it there isn't much talk about training theories anymore. People now believe you need the latest drugs to compete at the highest level. Quite frankly, I think all bodybuilders should be ashamed of what has happened to this sport.

I don't know if it died due to drugs. Perhaps drugs gave it a push instead, despite its low popularity still. Wouldn't we be bored seeing Steve Reeves being the biggest and best physique still? I know I would.

[Van_Bilderass]

ok, I know this is obvious and that is why I posted it.
The big question is, why doesn't anyone care?Especially the actual pro bodybuilders that are taking the lions share of the legal risks here.
Look, I personally don't think personal steroid use should be illegal.
My concern is for the pros I admire. Under the current lack of testing policy, the IFBB is essentially makes it mandatory to take illegal drugs, yet they have no intention of trying to change thr drug laws as they now exist. The fans get a good show and bigger , better pro on stage. The promoters can sell more tickets. At the end of the day, after the dust clears, it is the pro bodybuilder who suffers the legal and health risks and finacial burdens of extreme drug use.
One would think , that based on these negative aspects, most pros would lobby for a complete change in policy. I have met many of the pros and find some of them to very smart ,sensible people.
I once considered trying to go hardcore and making all or none run for a pro card. I then weighed the cost-risk/ bennefit ratio of extreme bodybuilding drug use vs the possible bennefits and concluded it was too skewed to the negative side.To me, it wlould be like buying a house and not bothering to get insurance . Am I just wrong or misguided here? What am I missing?
I just don't "get" the whole attraction to extreme drug use considering all the negative aspects?? sorry?
Howard

Think about this: you and me both are here talking about mostly drug physiques day in and day out. Extreme drug use DOES hold some attraction, even for you. Drug use and its effects are very attractive to most of us.

Let's say you knew you could be a top pro if you used the average amount of drugs the pros use. I bet you would seriously contemplate it even knowing about the health risks. Many of us use drugs despite us knowing we will never be anything in bodybuilding. It's just that attractive.

[timfogarty]

Body building died when those drugs became necessary.

which drugs?   steroids became necessary in the late 50s, GH in the late 80s, insulin in the early 90s, synthol and site injections in the last 5 years.

btw, you're only breaking US laws when you're in the US.  You can be a pro bodybuilders without committing felonies in parts of Europe and most of Latin America.

[columbusdude82]

which drugs?   steroids became necessary in the late 50s, GH in the late 80s, insulin in the early 90s, synthol and site injections in the last 5 years.

btw, you're only breaking US laws when you're in the US.  You can be a pro bodybuilders without committing felonies in parts of Europe and most of Latin America.

QFT! Why the US gvt has such a paranoid obsession with weird stuff, I'll never know...

They declared a war on alcohol, and alcohol prospered.

They declared a war on poverty, and poverty prospered.

They declared a war on drugs, and drugs prospered.

Now they have a war on terror... Is anyone else worried this might not go so well ?

[4thAD]

1. Various steroids and HGh class drugs, etc are a definite advantage in bodybuilding contests.
2. Without any viable drug testing program, pros have to use these drugs to be able to compete on a level playing field.

3. Much of this kind of drug use is against the federal drug laws.

4. Thus, in order to compete as top pro and do well, you are REQUIRED to break the current drug laws.

Please don't refute it based on something other than THIS legal issue.I have heard some defend drug use in the IFBB pros as "what the fans want" which is PERSONAL opinion. It doesn't change the LEGAL reality.
If you drive at 100 mph down a US highway, you can't use " most want to drive this fast" as defense for breaking the speed limit.
Thanks Howard

What about the guys who go off shore to hormonize? Where its legal to use!

[candidizzle]

Your premises 1 - 3 are correct.

Conclusion 4 follows immediately from premises 1 - 3.

Your argument is correct and valid.

Congrats Howie. You can pass a freshman philosophy class

lol...
no, because premise 3 says "MUCH of this drug use is against the law"

and his conclusion states that "breaking the law is REQUIRED"

which is not so, according to his premise, because only MUCH of the drug use is illegal, not ALL....  so that would mean that there is a way that the universe could be wher eyou are competitive and not breaking the law.

INVALID ARGUMENT!

[columbusdude82]

lol...
no, because premise 3 says "MUCH of this drug use is against the law"

and his conclusion states that "breaking the law is REQUIRED"

which is not so, according to his premise, because only MUCH of the drug use is illegal, not ALL....  so that would mean that there is a way that the universe could be wher eyou are competitive and not breaking the law.

INVALID ARGUMENT!

I must yield. You win