Author Topic: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros  (Read 8526 times)

Meltdown

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2008, 06:16:45 PM »
This is a question for Bob Chick he is the competitors rep and he will tell you all about the IFBB DRUG testing and how many Pros have been tested in the last five years??????It's a Fukin joke and we know it's not all illegal with the law but read the banned substance rule in the IFBB rule book.Pro Drug use = Pro.

Vince B

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2008, 06:31:45 PM »
Steroids have been around for donkeys years. That is true. When I started training in Jan 1959 there was little talk of steroids. It wasn't long before I heard about them and then when I was at university it wasn't clear that they even worked. We heard rumours that strength improved and if anyone has ever done Olympic lifting he will know how impossible the best records seemed to most of us. If you could press 255 imagine what you thought of some who did 400 pounds?

The physiques seemed to be getting bigger and bigger. Along came Bill Pearl in the 1960s looking huge. He won way back in 53 with a different physique. We heard about those drugs but few would admit to using them. There was just no way any sensible guy would even think of trying them. It was considered cheating to do so. Plus, everyone was afraid that steroids might cause cancer. When Tom Sansone died at a relatively young age we all wondered why. There wasn't much information available and most knowledge was kept in tight circles of friends.

Eventually guys started admitting they used drugs. Arnold said he used them before contests. It was a matter of time before guys were using throughout the year and stacking many kinds of drugs. Guys with weak bodyparts tried other ways to increase calves, deltoids, etc. Body enhancement became a fine art.

What do we find today? Well, would any college graduate think the risks are worth it? I doubt it. So we end up with rather ordinary guys who are virtual daredevils and try just about anything to get an advantage to look bigger and harder. It really has become crazy. I can't find another word that describes the mentality of the professionals.

Instead of discussing training programs and exercises many want to know the latest drug protocols. That isn't bodybuilding. It is chemistry. That pro bodybuilding has descended into a high risk/low return sport is bizarre. Who would have believed this would come to be the norm? The IFBB has no clue and no vision about solving this problem. Everyone puts their collective heads in the sand and hope no one tests the competitors. It is a sham, a disgrace and just plain crazy.

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2008, 06:32:52 PM »
It does and THAT is part of my issue. Imagine this( idea based on something Ramano wrote in MD years ago):
The Team U winner gets his/her pro card and competes in a pro show as a clean bodybuilder.
They don't place in the money and then file suit against the IFBB pro div. The suit would be based on the idea that the IFBB failed to enforce its' own rules and failed to provide a fair venue of competition to a pro athlete that obeyed the actual, established, written rules.
What do you think?
Howard

Howard...you don't really think the TU is clean???


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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2008, 06:34:26 PM »
 YES.. BUT, take drug use out of bodybuilding (which so many here seem to want) and you will not have bodybuilding.. plain and simple.. the harsh reality is that many of you bitch and moan about drug use yet, you dont support natural organizations.. why?.. well, the physiques  :-\.. if it bothered you then you would be at the natural muscle boards trying to help them grow..  yet, they (the organizations) dont flourish.. you cant have drug use without some drug abuse.. it cant be regulated what one takes..  so either except drug use in bodybuilding or support the naturals.. if drug testing is enforced they , the bodybuilders, will get around it.. they do at the ifbb world championships and still have 250 pound freaks winniing.. or, someone else will put together a organization which does not test ect ect..
   look guys, just enjoy the sport for what it is.. if you dont, there is numerous other hobbies you could do.. every week this argument comes around or one like it.. and guess what?.. it does not get solved.. so some might want to look into cycling (bikes  ;)) like the tour de france.. i hear they drug test too.. ::) oh and by the way.. i have known a class winner at the team universe.. one of the biggest users around..  ;)

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2008, 06:39:34 PM »
Well said and as for Natural FFS we know of the use there but the point is it is in the IFBB rules No banned substance to be used and Pros will be drug tested.So get the rule out of the rule book.Fukin clowns.

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2008, 06:39:48 PM »
YES.. BUT, take drug use out of bodybuilding (which so many here seem to want) and you will not have bodybuilding.. plain and simple.. the harsh reality is that many of you bitch and moan about drug use yet, you dont support natural organizations.. why?.. well, the physiques  :-\.. if it bothered you then you would be at the natural muscle boards trying to help them grow..  yet, they (the organizations) dont flourish.. you cant have drug use without some drug abuse.. it cant be regulated what one takes..  so either except drug use in bodybuilding or support the naturals.. if drug testing is enforced they , the bodybuilders, will get around it.. they do at the ifbb world championships and still have 250 pound freaks winniing.. or, someone else will put together a organization which does not test ect ect..
   look guys, just enjoy the sport for what it is.. if you dont, there is numerous other hobbies you could do.. every week this argument comes around or one like it.. and guess what?.. it does not get solved.. so some might want to look into cycling (bikes  ;)) like the tour de france.. i hear they drug test too.. ::) oh and by the way.. i have known a class winner at the team universe.. one of the biggest users around..  ;)

Exactly.

Get rid of the drugs and bodybuilding will dissapear (even more so). Sad but true.

Whats even more sad is that there isnt a sport out there that is clean. And if you think there is, then your crazy. This "war on steroids" will never amount to much. Its futile. There will always be a market for gear, so there will always be gear.
No doubt about it...

Van_Bilderass

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2008, 06:44:31 PM »

What do we find today? Well, would any college graduate think the risks are worth it? I doubt it. So we end up with rather ordinary guys who are virtual daredevils and try just about anything to get an advantage to look bigger and harder. It really has become crazy. I can't find another word that describes the mentality of the professionals.

Get real. Steroids are used by every part of society. There are medical doctors competing in bb on the national level.

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2008, 06:45:58 PM »
Steroids have been around for donkeys years. That is true. When I started training in Jan 1959 there was little talk of steroids. It wasn't long before I heard about them and then when I was at university it wasn't clear that they even worked. We heard rumours that strength improved and if anyone has ever done Olympic lifting he will know how impossible the best records seemed to most of us. If you could press 255 imagine what you thought of some who did 400 pounds?

The physiques seemed to be getting bigger and bigger. Along came Bill Pearl in the 1960s looking huge. He won way back in 53 with a different physique. We heard about those drugs but few would admit to using them. There was just no way any sensible guy would even think of trying them. It was considered cheating to do so. Plus, everyone was afraid that steroids might cause cancer. When Tom Sansone died at a relatively young age we all wondered why. There wasn't much information available and most knowledge was kept in tight circles of friends.

Eventually guys started admitting they used drugs. Arnold said he used them before contests. It was a matter of time before guys were using throughout the year and stacking many kinds of drugs. Guys with weak bodyparts tried other ways to increase calves, deltoids, etc. Body enhancement became a fine art.

What do we find today? Well, would any college graduate think the risks are worth it? I doubt it. So we end up with rather ordinary guys who are virtual daredevils and try just about anything to get an advantage to look bigger and harder. It really has become crazy. I can't find another word that describes the mentality of the professionals.

Instead of discussing training programs and exercises many want to know the latest drug protocols. That isn't bodybuilding. It is chemistry. That pro bodybuilding has descended into a high risk/low return sport is bizarre. Who would have believed this would come to be the norm? The IFBB has no clue and no vision about solving this problem. Everyone puts their collective heads in the sand and hope no one tests the competitors. It is a sham, a disgrace and just plain crazy.


let me tell yu ofriends something,,

i can take ANY ONE ON PLANET EARTH PUT IN THEM 5-10 TABLETS DIANABOL A DAY ,,500-1 GRAM TESTOSTERONE A WEEK ,, AND 400-600 MG NANDROLONE DECANOATE A WEEK AND MAKE THEM A NATIONAL COMPETITOR IN A MATTER OF 2-5 YEARS OF SERIOUS TRAINING  2 OF THEM ON CONSTANT USE OF NEEDED HORMONES,,

THE PLACING IN THE NATIONAL WILL BE DETERMINED ON SYMETRY ,,,MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT,,WIDNESS IN RELASHION TO TIGHTNESS OF WAIST ,,MUSCLE SHAPE,,,AND C O N D I T I O N

all of the above in 2008 should be accompanied with good size because every one is on drugs so no reason for being small any mnore unless youre light weight or under

take dianabol out of bodybuilding,,take testoterone out of bodybuilding ,,,take nandrolone out of bodybuilding and guess what...you got bonebuilding

drugs is integral part of bodybuilding and sports in general ,,,every one is on it and every one needs it for long career and inorder to compete on a level field ,,the ones who dont use it are the exeptions and always always always get screwed ,,i wish it was different but its not,,

i can take kevin tomorrow morning at a weight of 178 lb put him on 10 tablet dianabol a day and make him show at your local party within 6 weeks a screaming muscle bound 240lb looking 260 lb ,,,its not the same for everyone but trust me ,,,anyone can put the muscle to be 220lb + with thsoe hormones which are natural to the body by the way thus shouldnt be considered drugs and wont in 5-7 years
fallen angel

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2008, 06:50:43 PM »
 vince, no offense but, you are pretty detached from reality when it comes to gear.. you asked "would any college graduate take the risk".. have you seen the stats.. there has been numerous studies published that show most roid users are college grads and above average income.. the last count in the usa was that 2-3 million have used steroids.. we all know there are not many pro bodybuilders.. so that leaves quite a few other partaking.. as i stated before, the vast majority of gear users are not low lifes.. college grads and good incomes.. that stat was just on espn news not long ago also..

Van_Bilderass

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2008, 06:51:20 PM »
take dianabol out of bodybuilding,,take testoterone out of bodybuilding ,,,take nandrolone out of bodybuilding and guess what...you got bonebuilding
LOL  :D

Van_Bilderass

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2008, 06:52:37 PM »
vince, no offense but, you are pretty detached from reality when it comes to gear.. you asked "would any college graduate take the risk".. have you seen the stats.. there has been numerous studies published that show most roid users are college grads and above average income.. the last count in the usa was that 2-3 million have used steroids.. we all know there are not many pro bodybuilders.. so that leaves quite a few other partaking.. as i stated before, the vast majority of gear users are not low lifes.. college grads and good incomes.. that sta was just on espn news not long ago also..
I really think Vince is the most delusional person on the whole board.

Vince B

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2008, 07:09:55 PM »
There is so much crap posted re drugs on these boards. I don't see any experts re this subject. Just a bunch of know-it-alls and that is a recipe for the status quo we find. Believers become abusers. Simple as that.

While college grads might try steroids as a fair risk I wonder how many would subscribe to what the pros are using? It isn't just the growth drugs. Guys need a lift to train and then other substances to come down and relax. The drug culture is loco. I could care less how many are practicing this lifestyle. It has nothing to do with bodybuilding.

Perhaps we can find shortcuts to size that are natural and if so this will be part of the future. When bodybuilders have to use untested substances from underground sources this compounds the lunacy and certifies everyone who is a pro. What does anyone get out of all of that risk?

I don't consider using Gh, insulin and recreational drugs natural training. The steroids are different in small doses. However, bodybuilders have pushed the line of acceptability until it is just plain crazy. Even gh15 posted a long list of substances required by the top pros to compete. That is so far beyond what is sensible I don't know what to say. We have had guys die from what they do to prepare for contests. It amazes many of us that more haven't suffered. I well remember arguing with Ray Mentzer about steroids and he called them gonad stimulators. He died age 47 in 2001. What a shame.

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2008, 07:44:59 PM »
Ray clipped himself after they found Mike not sure if his death was drug related.

Matt C

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2008, 07:54:39 PM »
ok, I know this is obvious and that is why I posted it.
The big question is, why doesn't anyone care?Especially the actual pro bodybuilders that are taking the lions share of the legal risks here.
Look, I personally don't think personal steroid use should be illegal.
My concern is for the pros I admire. Under the current lack of testing policy, the IFBB is essentially makes it mandatory to take illegal drugs, yet they have no intention of trying to change thr drug laws as they now exist. The fans get a good show and bigger , better pro on stage. The promoters can sell more tickets. At the end of the day, after the dust clears, it is the pro bodybuilder who suffers the legal and health risks and finacial burdens of extreme drug use.
One would think , that based on these negative aspects, most pros would lobby for a complete change in policy. I have met many of the pros and find some of them to very smart ,sensible people.
I once considered trying to go hardcore and making all or none run for a pro card. I then weighed the cost-risk/ bennefit ratio of extreme bodybuilding drug use vs the possible bennefits and concluded it was too skewed to the negative side.To me, it wlould be like buying a house and not bothering to get insurance . Am I just wrong or misguided here? What am I missing?
I just don't "get" the whole attraction to extreme drug use considering all the negative aspects?? sorry?
Howard

The only way for drug barons to make money is to lobby the government to keep drugs illegal.  If these drugs weren't illegal they would have no value.  They are not inherently valuable.  The cost simply absorbs the risk of these drugs being sold on the black market.  No risk = no profit.  Drugs will never become legal due to the powerful interests who benefit from the drug world.  Stop presuming that obviously failed public policy happens by accident.  Those behind the scenes know that legalizing drugs would benefit society.  The point of drugs being illegal is to sustain a one trillion dollar per year world industry.
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Matt C

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2008, 08:06:34 PM »
I don't know if it died due to drugs. Perhaps drugs gave it a push instead, despite its low popularity still. Wouldn't we be bored seeing Steve Reeves being the biggest and best physique still? I know I would.

I have explained this before...bodybuilding never has been, and never will be, popular.  Why?  Because it is BORING AS FUCK to see men in thongs pose on stage.  It really is that simple.  It's not like other sports which have a degree of excitement.  The concept of seeing men go through quarter turns and posing is simply not entertaining.  It is so simple, yet people keep questioning what it would take to turn bodybuilding into something with market appeal.  I will answer that now: it is not possible.
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columbusdude82

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2008, 08:08:49 PM »
Matt C, you really are a Debbie Downer, you know that?

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2008, 08:15:17 PM »
YES.. BUT, take drug use out of bodybuilding (which so many here seem to want) and you will not have bodybuilding.. plain and simple.. the harsh reality is that many of you bitch and moan about drug use yet, you dont support natural organizations.. why?.. well, the physiques  :-\.. if it bothered you then you would be at the natural muscle boards trying to help them grow..  yet, they (the organizations) dont flourish.. you cant have drug use without some drug abuse.. it cant be regulated what one takes..  so either except drug use in bodybuilding or support the naturals.. if drug testing is enforced they , the bodybuilders, will get around it.. they do at the ifbb world championships and still have 250 pound freaks winniing.. or, someone else will put together a organization which does not test ect ect..
   look guys, just enjoy the sport for what it is.. if you dont, there is numerous other hobbies you could do.. every week this argument comes around or one like it.. and guess what?.. it does not get solved.. so some might want to look into cycling (bikes  ;)) like the tour de france.. i hear they drug test too.. ::) oh and by the way.. i have known a class winner at the team universe.. one of the biggest users around..  ;)
While this is thoughtful dialogue, it veers off from my main idea.
That is , if you want to compete as top bodybuilder, you are REQUIRED to break the drug laws and risk legal troubles.
How can we defend pro bodybuildings policy of required drug use, when the issue can't even but talked about in an open, candid manner by top IFBB officials.
Think about. If the only way pro bodybuilding shows can survive is by required drugs use by the pros, what kind of sport do we have? The pros bear most of the legal burdens here and I wish they didn't have to.
However, I don't hear too many pros say they wish the sport was drug free.??????
Yet, if these same pros get busted for drugs, they act all innocent and cry "What happened, why poor lil me?"
This is like jumping off a cliff and wondering why you hit the ground hard.
I know some will ahev cheated in the Team U, but by looking at the winners , it is obvious that the drug testing is keeping the extreme , obvious use at bay. Other sports do try to stop the drug use and actually do something about it.
Bodybuilding not only looks the other way, they ENCOURAGE and quietly support the use of drugged bodybuilders.
If drug testing is such a  joke and never works ,why do so many fear it being used? Hmmmmmm.
Howard
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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2008, 08:27:38 PM »
Think about this: you and me both are here talking about mostly drug physiques day in and day out. Extreme drug use DOES hold some attraction, even for you. Drug use and its effects are very attractive to most of us.

Let's say you knew you could be a top pro if you used the average amount of drugs the pros use. I bet you would seriously contemplate it even knowing about the health risks. Many of us use drugs despite us knowing we will never be anything in bodybuilding. It's just that attractive.


I did think about just THAT, in the mid 80's and made a serious stab at serious bodybuilding.
I took various, small amounts of typical BB drugs from 83-86. I did ok and even won some shows.
I competed and got my first big win, with a 1st in the Lt Hvy class at the NPC 1986 Golds Classic in NC. I lost the overall to masters champ and current pro Johnny Stewart.
By 1987, I knew I was good enough to make a dent on a national stage if just upped the drugs a bit and stayed with it. I also knew I would NEVER be a top 6 Olympia pro,not matter what I took, even if I got a pro card.Thus, I figured the cost /bennefit ratio for me and stopped roid use in early 1987. It was simple logic , that caused me to stop that path, return to college and later  start a career as chemistry and physics teacher.
As a bodybuilder pro wanna be, I personally would have ended up up as gym bum with no credit, career or home, etc.
Today at near age 50, I am happy and secure with my life and glad I didn't throw it away on a crazy roid fueled delusion of bodybuilding glory that would have never happened.I invested in my career and education instead.
No, it is not as cool or wonderful as being a top pro, but, it was  a sure bet and one I am happy I made.
I also have the luxury of enjoying bodybuilding on MY terms, not those dictated by whatever wacky standard the current sport demands. I can enjoy watching the best pros with extreme levels of muscle from the comfort of my seat.
I then return to my life, my gym and train in my own way, on my own terms with no need to feel guilty or sad.
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HowieW

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2008, 08:30:45 PM »
There is so much crap posted re drugs on these boards. I don't see any experts re this subject. Just a bunch of know-it-alls and that is a recipe for the status quo we find. Believers become abusers. Simple as that.

While college grads might try steroids as a fair risk I wonder how many would subscribe to what the pros are using? It isn't just the growth drugs. Guys need a lift to train and then other substances to come down and relax. The drug culture is loco. I could care less how many are practicing this lifestyle. It has nothing to do with bodybuilding.

Perhaps we can find shortcuts to size that are natural and if so this will be part of the future. When bodybuilders have to use untested substances from underground sources this compounds the lunacy and certifies everyone who is a pro. What does anyone get out of all of that risk?

I don't consider using Gh, insulin and recreational drugs natural training. The steroids are different in small doses. However, bodybuilders have pushed the line of acceptability until it is just plain crazy. Even gh15 posted a long list of substances required by the top pros to compete. That is so far beyond what is sensible I don't know what to say. We have had guys die from what they do to prepare for contests. It amazes many of us that more haven't suffered. I well remember arguing with Ray Mentzer about steroids and he called them gonad stimulators. He died age 47 in 2001. What a shame.


You may think Vince is out of tocuh with reality, but the guy did win Mr Canada back in his day. He also knows, that like me just becuase the current culture supports and glorifies drug use does NOT mean you have to follow it.
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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2008, 08:35:41 PM »
I have explained this before...bodybuilding never has been, and never will be, popular.  Why?  Because it is BORING AS FUCK to see men in thongs pose on stage.  It really is that simple.  It's not like other sports which have a degree of excitement.  The concept of seeing men go through quarter turns and posing is simply not entertaining.  It is so simple, yet people keep questioning what it would take to turn bodybuilding into something with market appeal.  I will answer that now: it is not possible.
   Myself, and many other bodybuilders i know of, would strongly disagree with you.

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2008, 08:38:53 PM »
   Myself, and many other bodybuilders i know of, would strongly disagree with you.

I agree and for every hard core freak lover that was lost if the pro sport went drug tested, you would gain 5 more mainstream fans. Howard
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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2008, 08:44:59 PM »
fuck that.


'mainstream' can suck my dick....bodybuilding isnt about being pretty

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2008, 08:47:21 PM »
fuck that.


'mainstream' can suck my dick....bodybuilding isnt about being pretty

LOL, having the mainstream "suck your dick" attitude is NOT the best way to for BB to gain new fans and apeal, my friend. Hmmm, and some hardcore types wonder why the so called normal "mainstream" doesn't cozy up to them....go figure, I wonder why???LOL
I know what you mean, having fathers bringing their kids to major league baseball or NFL football, really was bad for the sport huh?
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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2008, 08:50:11 PM »
LOL, having the mainstream "suck your dick" attitude is NOT the best way to for BB to gain new fans and apeal, my friend. Hmmm, and some hardcore types wonder why the so called normal "mainstream" doesn't cozy up to them....go figure, I wonder why???LOL
I know what you mean, having fathers bringing their kids to major league baseball or NFL football, really was bad for the sport huh?
.

i dont give a fuck if bodybuilding is popular with a bunch of fat, lazy, stupid americans. what does that matter?

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Re: Dispute this logic on bodybuilding drug use in the pros
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2008, 08:54:46 PM »
1. Various steroids and HGh class drugs, etc are a definite advantage in bodybuilding contests.
2. Without any viable drug testing program, pros have to use these drugs to be able to compete on a level playing field.

3. Much of this kind of drug use is against the federal drug laws.

4. Thus, in order to compete as top pro and do well, you are REQUIRED to break the current drug laws.

Please don't refute it based on something other than THIS legal issue.I have heard some defend drug use in the IFBB pros as "what the fans want" which is PERSONAL opinion. It doesn't change the LEGAL reality.
If you drive at 100 mph down a US highway, you can't use " most want to drive this fast" as defense for breaking the speed limit.
Thanks Howard


Howard....make up your mind, buddy.

Last time I checked, you still SUPPORT this industry by going to shows and the like. If you honestly want this issue resolved and bbing cleaned up, perhaps you should stop spending your hard earned dough on it. Fuck, I love bbing too, but this current circus of scumbags and criminals is unacceptable.
HAHA, RON.....