Author Topic: Close grip bench  (Read 4438 times)

MisterMagoo

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2008, 10:25:15 AM »
What matters is whether it works, not the type of exercise. Then work on increasing the weight
. Barbell curls aren't compounds and are almost universally considered the best size builder, as just one example, there are many. Pullovers aren't really a compound and are as good as any lat exercise.

i'll agree that curls are good and all, but come on. pullovers as good as weighted chins or heavy rows? come on, that's like saying face pulls are as good for traps as heavy shrugs or hyperextensions are as good for the back as deadlifts.

candidizzle

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2008, 10:50:22 AM »
a muscle contraction is a muscle contraction. i agree with pumpsetr... the exercise itself doesnt matter, what matters is the muscle stimulattion from the exercise.   and i dont think there is any reaSON WHY ONE MOVEMENT wouldnt be as compabible as another to accomplish the same amount of stimulation.



MisterMagoo

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2008, 11:44:17 AM »
a muscle contraction is a muscle contraction. i agree with pumpsetr... the exercise itself doesnt matter, what matters is the muscle stimulattion from the exercise.   and i dont think there is any reaSON WHY ONE MOVEMENT wouldnt be as compabible as another to accomplish the same amount of stimulation.

there are plenty of reasons. one is hormone release, a squat or a deadlift release a lot more hormones than a leg extension or a back raise.

another is that, thanks to the nature of a compound move versus isolation, you can truly go for maximal effort. try doing heavy triples on pushdowns or DB laterals, then try close-grip bench and military press. see which goes better.

...and so on.

there may not be many reasons why an exercise isn't as "compabible", but don't get tied up in FLEX magazine and internet pseudo-wisdom, people who try and "logic" their way through these things without actually getting out there, doing them, or viewing the results of others' attempts. if i limit myself to weighted chins and you to pullovers, one of us is going to have a much better back.

mesmorph78

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2008, 03:54:06 PM »
 weighted chins win
choice is an illusion

pumpster

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2008, 04:04:40 PM »
pullovers as good as weighted chins or heavy rows?
Pullovers are just as good, especially machine pullovers. They should be a basic component of back work.

pumpster

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2008, 04:06:38 PM »
there are plenty of reasons. one is hormone release, a squat or a deadlift release a lot more hormones than a leg extension or a back raise.


Please produce studies on:

-Hormone release per exercise.
-How hormone amounts effect muscle development.
-Studies proving that these studies are conclusive.

Quote
thanks to the nature of a compound move versus isolation, you can truly go for maximal effort. try doing heavy triples on pushdowns or DB laterals, then try close-grip bench and military press. see which goes better.

Compounds can be more taxing overall, because there are higher demands on oxygen consumption, but that has nothing to do with greater demands on the muscle. Non-compounds are often more effective. Please list the numbers of champion BBs who only did compounds for arm development.

pumpster

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2008, 04:10:08 PM »
weighted chins win


One of the best. On the other hand, pulldowns using equivalent heavy resistance & the right form are equally good, similar yet slightly different. Both worth doing.

MisterMagoo

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2008, 04:18:57 PM »
Pullovers are just as good, especially machine pullovers. They should be a basic component of back work.

pumpster, i'm sorry, but this is starting to make my head hurt. i do not mean this as a personal flame, but this kind of advice is borderline irresponsible to be giving to newer trainees.

mesmorph78

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2008, 04:20:10 PM »
but if i had to do one it would definetly be chins over puulldowns EVERYTIME
i take pulldowns as what i'd call a bitch movement... i do them on the end of my workout after all the real movements like deads rows.. and chins which i do at the beggining and the end of my workout...
i always consider pulldowns to be for guys who are too lazy to do chins... or cant do them ive seen guys pulling that whole stack down as me what i do for my back develoment i tell them lots of chins.. then wehen we go over to the chin bar they cant even pull off six reps..
chins all the way....for a wide back
choice is an illusion

pumpster

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2008, 04:37:18 PM »
pumpster, i'm sorry, but this is starting to make my head hurt. i do not mean this as a personal flame, but this kind of advice is borderline irresponsible to be giving to newer trainees.

Getting bent out of shape over an opinion's an interesting reaction, especially when you're not offering any firm basis for refuting anything. I'm fine with my advice, based on 35 years of experience, besides which it's only an opinion.

Please take some aspirin, you're over-thinking this. Besides which, yours is not the only way. ;D

pumpster

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2008, 04:38:29 PM »
but if i had to do one it would definetly be chins over puulldowns EVERYTIME
i take pulldowns as what i'd call a bitch movement... i do them on the end of my workout after all the real movements like deads rows.. and chins which i do at the beggining and the end of my workout...
i always consider pulldowns to be for guys who are too lazy to do chins... or cant do them ive seen guys pulling that whole stack down as me what i do for my back develoment i tell them lots of chins.. then wehen we go over to the chin bar they cant even pull off six reps..
chins all the way....for a wide back

Both are great, i'll take pulldowns. And the whole thing about pulldowns being for the lazy's just an assumption, depends on who's doing em. Some guys make a joke out of them and other exercises by using horrible form to make it easier to lift weights they shouldn't be. Probably the  biggest advantage with chins is that it's harder to cheat, rather than it being a better exercise.

MisterMagoo

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2008, 06:10:24 PM »
Getting bent out of shape over an opinion's an interesting reaction, especially when you're not offering any firm basis for refuting anything. I'm fine with my advice, based on 35 years of experience, besides which it's only an opinion.

Please take some aspirin, you're over-thinking this. Besides which, yours is not the only way. ;D

there is a line between "differing opinions" and "wrong", though. i mean, if it's true that your 35 years of experience have yielded such fruits, you must have a world-class physique, yah? the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

now, i try not to get into these arguments, but to say something like "pullovers are as good as anything else" is just, well, crazy.

i do not have time to wade through The Google for the various articles i've found over the past six years, but here's the take home messages combined with what i've personally learned both through my own training and watching others:

1) compound over isolation

2) heavy over "pump"

3) body moving through space over weights moving only (squats over leg press, chins over pulldowns).

3 has exceptions when they violate the other rules. for example, you'd never want to do those goofy "dangling pullup/row" things because doing so heavily would be impossible, same with dips. heavy sets of 3-5 reps on dips is horribly dangerous.

other than that, you're set. but i'll tell you what. i'll eschew ALL isolation tricep, chest, and shoulder exercises for a while, you don't do ANY compound exercises. in six months we'll see who's doing better. sound fair?

pumpster

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2008, 11:50:30 PM »
there is a line between "differing opinions" and "wrong", though. i mean, if it's true that your 35 years of experience have yielded such fruits, you must have a world-class physique, yah? the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

now, i try not to get into these arguments, but to say something like "pullovers are as good as anything else" is just, well, crazy.

i do not have time to wade through The Google for the various articles i've found over the past six years, but here's the take home messages combined with what i've personally learned both through my own training and watching others:

1) compound over isolation

2) heavy over "pump"

3) body moving through space over weights moving only (squats over leg press, chins over pulldowns).

3 has exceptions when they violate the other rules. for example, you'd never want to do those goofy "dangling pullup/row" things because doing so heavily would be impossible, same with dips. heavy sets of 3-5 reps on dips is horribly dangerous.

other than that, you're set. but i'll tell you what. i'll eschew ALL isolation tricep, chest, and shoulder exercises for a while, you don't do ANY compound exercises. in six months we'll see who's doing better. sound fair?

I find your reasoning or lackthereof interesting, your conclusions in each case aren't supported by solid facts but hey, keep yer head stuck in the sand if it suits you. The fact that you weren't aware just how good pullovers are really speaks volumes on this. ;D

MisterMagoo

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2008, 10:07:34 AM »
I find your reasoning or lackthereof interesting, your conclusions in each case aren't supported by solid facts but hey, keep yer head stuck in the sand if it suits you. The fact that you weren't aware just how good pullovers are really speaks volumes on this. ;D

this reminds me of when people would argue with Chick about training, and it would always be someone with a billion "studies" to reinforce what they're saying but built like a stick, while Chick had zero studies and could just tell you what he knows.

i'm not saying i'm Chick by any means, but i hate the "where are your studies" argument because i think we've established here that anyone can find a study to reinforce anything (i refer you to my battles with Adonis over nutrition).

now i guaran-fucking-tee you i can build a great back on someone without doing any pullovers. would you make that same guarantee about rows and chins? i can build great triceps without doing any pushdowns or extensions. would you say that about presses? the list goes on.

pumpster

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2008, 10:53:51 AM »
this reminds me of when people would argue with Chick about training, and it would always be someone with a billion "studies" to reinforce what they're saying but built like a stick, while Chick had zero studies and could just tell you what he knows.

i'm not saying i'm Chick by any means, but i hate the "where are your studies" argument because i think we've established here that anyone can find a study to reinforce anything (i refer you to my battles with Adonis over nutrition).

now i guaran-fucking-tee you i can build a great back on someone without doing any pullovers. would you make that same guarantee about rows and chins? i can build great triceps without doing any pushdowns or extensions. would you say that about presses? the list goes on.

This must be a joke, did you start training yesterday..No one said anything about excluding chins or rows, this is another example of your arbitrary thought process. Some of us have a little more breadth of knowledge and want to know about everything that works, not just some things that work. That way someone can realize most or all of their potential, instead of limiting it as you do. Glad i could help enlighten ya after all these years. ;) Guys like Oliva and Yates with great backs are big believers in pullovers.

I asked about your studes because well, your logic sucks or is complete drivel.

As far as extensions, if Oliva, Coleman and Scott specifically say they're the best bulk builder, i'd say you're talking out of yer ass to leave em out and shortchanging your own potential development lol.

jpm101

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2008, 11:33:20 AM »
Actually the Bent Arm pullover, as opposed to the straight arm variety, can be a superior lat builder. The straight arm version is somewhat limited because of the less amount of weight used, as is the case with most extension/leverage movements. I believe the record for bent arm BB pullovers is around  400lb. In any event, using a BB or DB (DB's can be easier on the wrist, elbows and shoulder joints for a lot of folks) can be with-in the class of weighted chins and BB rows for lat/back mass. And I do use both chins & rows at times  for heavy lower rep's and partial rack training.

If you want a double bonus than do bent arm pullovers & presses (close grip) as a single compound exercise. Applying this with the GVT(10X10) system (for example,or any way you wish) has produced some very good results for me. Try that with a  somewhat moderate pair of 100-120lb DB's and see how the lat's, triceps, pecs and ever abs respond. In a lesser way, DB bent arm pullovers can mock the actions of a good pullover machine

I favor heavy chins (understanding the body through space idea here, as well as it being applied to weighted dips) and other compound movements, over most extension exercise for building the most potential muscle mass. You learn that right away from everyday hands on gym experience. I also find that any version of pullovers can work well with these heavier compound back movements, at times in certain routines, for a complete  lat/back workout and development. Good Luck.
F

MisterMagoo

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2008, 12:35:22 PM »
This must be a joke, did you start training yesterday..No one said anything about excluding chins or rows, this is another example of your arbitrary thought process. Some of us have a little more breadth of knowledge and want to know about everything that works, not just some things that work. That way someone can realize most or all of their potential, instead of limiting it as you do. Glad i could help enlighten ya after all these years. ;) Guys like Oliva and Yates with great backs are big believers in pullovers.

I asked about your studes because well, your logic sucks or is complete drivel.

As far as extensions, if Oliva, Coleman and Scott specifically say they're the best bulk builder, i'd say you're talking out of yer ass to leave em out and shortchanging your own potential development lol.

if you want to compare development, i'm MORE than happy to do so. ::)

as for my poor "logic", recall that you said pullovers == chins. thus, you can rely solely on one or the other and the result will be the same, right? that's perfectly logical. let's make it mathematics.

a = b

2a = 2b

a + b = 2a || a + b = 2b

thus, redoubling our efforts in A or B will yield the same effect as doing them together, if they are equal. we can then conclude that concentrating just on pullovers will yield the same effect as concentrating just on pullups or rows and what have you. my logic is rock-solid. don't start changing the debate into "i'm not saying you should exclude anything". you said they were equal. are you backing off on that now?

pumpster

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2008, 12:40:22 PM »
if you want to compare development, i'm MORE than happy to do so. ::)

as for my poor "logic", recall that you said pullovers == chins. thus, you can rely solely on one or the other and the result will be the same, right? that's perfectly logical. let's make it mathematics.

a = b

2a = 2b

a + b = 2a || a + b = 2b

thus, redoubling our efforts in A or B will yield the same effect as doing them together, if they are equal. we can then conclude that concentrating just on pullovers will yield the same effect as concentrating just on pullups or rows and what have you. my logic is rock-solid. don't start changing the debate into "i'm not saying you should exclude anything". you said they were equal. are you backing off on that now?

a=b..wtf? This reminds me of a dog chasing it's tail.


Quote
if you want to compare development, i'm MORE than happy to do so.

Ahhh yes, another 5-grade level pissing contest. Shall we also meet out on a street corner and "settle this"? lol

Painlayer69

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2008, 10:11:49 PM »
Is that you in that pic pumpster?
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pumpster

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2008, 10:42:32 PM »
Is that you in that pic pumpster?
Someone named Sergio, you've heard of him? ;D

haider

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2008, 12:40:25 AM »
pullovers aren't exactly an isolation exercise, i would say very comparable to pullups/rows in terms of stimualting muscle growth.

ps- I've actually liked how pumpster's handled himself here.
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Painlayer69

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2008, 07:47:44 AM »
I think you mean sergio olivia right?

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candidizzle

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2008, 06:00:17 PM »
i think pumpster is right about muscle stimulation, however i think magoo is right about hormonal release from the exercie. he is right that heavy compound movements result in more growth in the non-enhanced athlete. but, when talking purely about stimulating growth at the level of the muscle fiber and satellite cell; then pumpster is correct !


thewickedtruth

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2008, 08:16:08 AM »
heavy pressing. pick a variety. my triceps blew up best by just doing heavy benches, close-grips, and shoulder presses, always to lockout.

it doesn't matter for shit if you're isolating them, the point is if you're putting them under maximal loads, they will grow.


i second this comment! My triceps finally blew the hell up when i started doing alot of compound exercises for my benching.. like floor presses, closed grip inclines or bench presses, jm presses, etc.

pumpster

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Re: Close grip bench
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2008, 10:30:46 AM »

i second this comment! My triceps finally blew the hell up when i started doing alot of compound exercises for my benching.. like floor presses, closed grip inclines or bench presses, jm presses, etc.

There are natural presses like you that will react to it more than most and virtually never get injured, get to bigger numbers. There are others who react differently, never get to great numbers and in fact get injured trying to get to big lifts and don't react that well to compounds. Count me in the second group after many years of presses and shoulder probs.