From an Angry Soldier

[War-Horse]

Neocon strategists, pro-war supporters, interested corporations, OPEC, and you.

HAHAHAH       BOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM.

[240 is Back]

Neocon strategists, pro-war supporters, interested corporations, OPEC, and you.

some say I deliberately take some positions for the sake of strengthening other positions in which I really believe.

[Decker]

some say I deliberately take some positions for the sake of strengthening other positions in which I really believe.

I see.  In my opinion, the Iraq war is strengthening Al Qaeda, Corporate profiteers and mercenary soldiers (there are as many mercs in Iraq as US soldiers).  I can also tell you who is losing:  the families of the slain soldiers, the american taxpayer, US debt and the US's reputation.

What's your take on who is profiting from the war?

[Dos Equis]

That's wonderful that you put the Iraqi people's interests ahead of the lives of american families.  That's laudable.

I'll tell you what, things would be made a whole lot safer for our troops if they weren't in Iraq.

The Surge was a dismal failure.

Troop surge a failure, Iraq war veteran says

Iraq Veterans Against the War says the troop surge is a failure

"It seems that in all measurable aspects, the troop surge has failed. Despite what general Petraeus said before Congress, numerous preliminary reports outline what is clearly a failure in this surge strategy. Casualties, both US and Iraqi have exceeded the numbers from last year for every month in 2007. The Iraqi government is no closer to stability than it was a year ago,..."  http://ivaw.org/node/1676

US surge has failed - Iraqi poll
About 70% of Iraqis believe security has deteriorated in the area covered by the US military "surge" of the past six months, an opinion poll suggests.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6983841.stm

The Coalition Casualties have been climbing by the month:  http://icasualties.org/oif/

Monthly death tolls in Iraq are on the rise again. For the first time since September 2007 the number of civilian deaths from violence were higher than in the preceding month, according to figures from the Iraq Body Count project (IBC).

Civilian causalties are up too:

Preliminary totals from IBC’s daily assessment of international and Iraqi media-reported violent incidents show 947 civilian deaths between 1st and 27th February. This is already 180 more than the equivalent January total of 767 civilian deaths, with two days of February still left (note that February is also a shorter month).
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/enforced-security/

McCain wants to send more US soldiers to their deaths in Iraq for what again?

It's too bad you don't love your country enough to support measures that will protect our men and women in uniform who are in combat.  (I can play the distort the other guy's viewpoint game too.   

The surge worked:

Why the Surge Worked
January 2, 2008: Over a year ago, a new plan was announced for improving security in Iraq.  The plan was simply to increase U.S. presence in the country by 30,000 personnel with a three-fold contribution by Iraqi forces.  Other Coalition nations provided additional personnel for the plan.  The center of this plan would be Iraq's center of gravity, Baghdad, which is the political center and largest city in the country.  The sectarian "fault line" runs throughout out the city. 

Now, over a year later, the Surge plan has been successful.  Violence is down 60 percent nationwide.  Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) has been expelled from Baghdad and Anbar Province and is currently on the run.  Iraqi Ministry of the Interior (Waziriat al Dakhaliyah) has recently stated that AQI is 75 percent destroyed.  Both the reduction in violence levels and AQI losses can be reinforced through Open Source Intelligence (OSINT).

. . . .

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htwin/articles/20080102.aspx

[War-Horse]

It's too bad you don't love your country enough to support measures that will protect our men and women in uniform who are in combat.  (I can play the distort the other guy's viewpoint game too.   

The surge worked:

Why the Surge Worked
January 2, 2008: Over a year ago, a new plan was announced for improving security in Iraq.  The plan was simply to increase U.S. presence in the country by 30,000 personnel with a three-fold contribution by Iraqi forces.  Other Coalition nations provided additional personnel for the plan.  The center of this plan would be Iraq's center of gravity, Baghdad, which is the political center and largest city in the country.  The sectarian "fault line" runs throughout out the city. 

Now, over a year later, the Surge plan has been successful.  Violence is down 60 percent nationwide.  Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) has been expelled from Baghdad and Anbar Province and is currently on the run.  Iraqi Ministry of the Interior (Waziriat al Dakhaliyah) has recently stated that AQI is 75 percent destroyed.  Both the reduction in violence levels and AQI losses can be reinforced through Open Source Intelligence (OSINT).

. . . .

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htwin/articles/20080102.aspx

Record numbers of soldiers and civilians killed every month........thats success to BB.

[Decker]

It's too bad you don't love your country enough to support measures that will protect our men and women in uniform who are in combat.  (I can play the distort the other guy's viewpoint game too.   

Since the Surge failed and US casulties are rising monthly, I would say that your plan to escalate The Surge means more american deaths.

Whereas my idea--leave Iraq--actually spares american military lives.

The surge worked:

Why the Surge Worked
January 2, 2008: Over a year ago, a new plan was announced for improving security in Iraq.  The plan was simply to increase U.S. presence in the country by 30,000 personnel with a three-fold contribution by Iraqi forces.  Other Coalition nations provided additional personnel for the plan.  The center of this plan would be Iraq's center of gravity, Baghdad, which is the political center and largest city in the country.  The sectarian "fault line" runs throughout out the city. 

Now, over a year later, the Surge plan has been successful.  Violence is down 60 percent nationwide.  Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) has been expelled from Baghdad and Anbar Province and is currently on the run.  Iraqi Ministry of the Interior (Waziriat al Dakhaliyah) has recently stated that AQI is 75 percent destroyed.  Both the reduction in violence levels and AQI losses can be reinforced through Open Source Intelligence (OSINT).

. . . .

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htwin/articles/20080102.aspx

January of 2008?  Check the monthly death toll from Iraq.  It's going up up and away.

There was zero political advancement by the IRaqi government--remember that that was the WHOLE POINT of the SURGE.

Deaths are up and no political progress in Iraq.

I guess I was wrong, the Surge did work!

[Dos Equis]

Since the Surge failed and US casulties are rising monthly, I would say that your plan to escalate The Surge means more american deaths.

Whereas my idea--leave Iraq--actually spares american military lives.
January of 2008?  Check the monthly death toll from Iraq.  It's going up up and away.

There was zero political advancement by the IRaqi government--remember that that was the WHOLE POINT of the SURGE.

Deaths are up and no political progress in Iraq.

I guess I was wrong, the Surge did work!

I don't have a plan for Iraq.

Yes, you were wrong, the surge did work.

[Decker]

I don't have a plan for Iraq.

Yes, you were wrong, the surge did work.

Unsupported Conclusions.  That's called insulating oneself from the facts.  That's why I can't figure out why you are voting for McCain.

Here's your monthly Coalition casualty#s:

Date           Monthly DEATHS    Wounded
12-2007              25                  212
1-2008                40                  234
2-2008                30                  215   
3-2008                40                  326
4-2008                52                  323
5-2008                14 so far

I see more deaths after the Surge, don't you?

How are the Iraqi Civilians faring after the Surge?

Let's find out.

                      Deaths
12-2007             548                 
1-2008               554   
2-2008               674
3-2008              980
4-2008              744
5-2008               246


Looks like the civilians are getting their asses handed to them by the SURGE!

http://icasualties.org/oif/

[Decker]

Record numbers of soldiers and civilians killed every month........thats success to BB.

I would tend to agree with you here.

The numbers just don't add up to Beach Bum's conclusion that The Surge worked and that we need a bigger Surge in IRaq.

[240 is Back]

I don't have a plan for Iraq.

Yes, you were wrong, the surge did work.

So the surge reached its original goal of allowing the iraqi govt to become functional?

Or the OTHER goal, which was "kill a bunch of people without quantifying anything"?

[OzmO]

When did the surge start and when did it end?

Cause there are some big numbers of deaths this time last year that far and away exceed this years numbers.

[240 is Back]

surge numbers are murky at best.

dont ya get it yet?

this war isn't about reaching goals.  it's about perpetuating war.  we said it here 2 years ago, and NBC is now asking now, if that is indeed the goal.

it's about keeping a war going until some goal is met, whether it be 41 new bases built or an oil pipeline completed

you see, once the govt is stable and civil fighting stops, the iraqi govt will go to un and pass a resolution asking for the usa to leave.  that doesnt work for us

[Decker]

When did the surge start and when did it end?

Cause there are some big numbers of deaths this time last year that far and away exceed this years numbers.

40 to 50 deaths a month ruins 40 to 50 US families a month. 

And for what?

[OzmO]

The surge began in February of 2007 and was complete in June.  if you look at the deaths from then, at a glance, they seem to gradually decrease by about 20%.

Period        US     UK     Other     Total     DayCount     Avg
Total       4077    176    136    4389    1883    2.33
5-2008       12    0    2    14    14    1
4-2008       52    0    0    52    30    1.73
3-2008       39    1    0    40    31    1.29
2-2008       29    1    0    30    29    1.03
1-2008       40    0    0    40    31    1.29
12-2007    23    1    1    25    31    0.81
11-2007    37    2    1    40    30    1.33
10-2007    38    1    1    40    31    1.29
9-2007       65    2    2    69    30    2.3
8-2007       84    4    0    88    31    2.84
7-2007       79    8    1    88    31    2.84
6-2007       101    7    0    108    30    3.6
5-2007       126    3    2    131    31    4.23
4-2007       104    12    1    117    30    3.9
3-2007       81    1    0    82    31    2.65
2-2007       81    3    1    85    28    3.04
1-2007       83    3    0    86    31    2.77
12-2006    112    1    2    115    31    3.71
11-2006    70    6    2    78    30    2.6
10-2006    106    2    2    110    31    3.55
9-2006       72    3    2    77    30    2.57
8-2006       65    1    0    66    31    2.13
7-2006       43    1    2    46    31    1.48
6-2006       61    0    2    63    30    2.1
5-2006       69    9    1    79    31    2.55
4-2006       76    1    5    82    30    2.73
3-2006       31    0    2    33    31    1.06
2-2006       55    3    0    58    28    2.07
1-2006       62    2    0    64    31    2.06
12-2005    68    0    0    68    31    2.19
11-2005    84    1    1    86    30    2.87
10-2005    96    2    1    99    31    3.19
9-2005       49    3    0    52    30    1.73
8-2005       85    0    0    85    31    2.74
7-2005       54    3    1    58    31    1.87
6-2005       78    1    4    83    30    2.77
5-2005       80    2    6    88    31    2.84
4-2005       52    0    0    52    30    1.73
3-2005       35    1    3    39    31    1.26
2-2005       58    0    2    60    28    2.14
1-2005       107    10    10    127    31    4.1

[OzmO]

40 to 50 deaths a month ruins 40 to 50 US families a month. 

And for what?

You are preaching to the choir when you ask me that question.  You know my position on the war.

But i think if you look at the whole picture, the surge seems to have lessened the amount of American deaths.

[Decker]

You are preaching to the choir when you ask me that question.  You know my position on the war.

But i think if you look at the whole picture, the surge seems to have lessened the amount of American deaths.

I know.  You're a thoughtful man.  But sometimes I answer these posts for other people to see. 

Yes, there was a temporary dip.  Now the numbers are going back up.  The Iraqis are still dying by the truckload.  And the causative factors in the dip in US deaths could arguably be:  bribery of the warring factions, wholesale Iraqi flight from the country etc.

[War-Horse]

They volunteered to be killed.  Its to bad they didnt think about their families.  No one was trying to occupy our lands.  Norad and the gov allowed planes to fly into buildings with missles strapped to them.

I wish they would have known (Soldiers) But like hh6 says "Its their job so quit bitching"

[Dos Equis]

Unsupported Conclusions.  That's called insulating oneself from the facts.  That's why I can't figure out why you are voting for McCain.

Here's your monthly Coalition casualty#s:

Date           Monthly DEATHS    Wounded
12-2007              25                  212
1-2008                40                  234
2-2008                30                  215   
3-2008                40                  326
4-2008                52                  323
5-2008                14 so far

I see more deaths after the Surge, don't you?

How are the Iraqi Civilians faring after the Surge?

Let's find out.

                      Deaths
12-2007             548                 
1-2008               554   
2-2008               674
3-2008              980
4-2008              744
5-2008               246


Looks like the civilians are getting their asses handed to them by the SURGE!

http://icasualties.org/oif/

You can't figure out why I'm voting for McCain even though I gave you about ten reasons why I think he's a better candidate in this thread? 

Here's another:  he is skin and bones and has a pencil neck.  Can't have a guy leading the country who doesn't drive iron.  I bet McCain lifts at least a little.   

[Dos Equis]

The surge began in February of 2007 and was complete in June.  if you look at the deaths from then, at a glance, they seem to gradually decrease by about 20%.

Period        US     UK     Other     Total     DayCount     Avg
Total       4077    176    136    4389    1883    2.33
5-2008       12    0    2    14    14    1
4-2008       52    0    0    52    30    1.73
3-2008       39    1    0    40    31    1.29
2-2008       29    1    0    30    29    1.03
1-2008       40    0    0    40    31    1.29
12-2007    23    1    1    25    31    0.81
11-2007    37    2    1    40    30    1.33
10-2007    38    1    1    40    31    1.29
9-2007       65    2    2    69    30    2.3
8-2007       84    4    0    88    31    2.84
7-2007       79    8    1    88    31    2.84
6-2007       101    7    0    108    30    3.6
5-2007       126    3    2    131    31    4.23
4-2007       104    12    1    117    30    3.9
3-2007       81    1    0    82    31    2.65
2-2007       81    3    1    85    28    3.04
1-2007       83    3    0    86    31    2.77
12-2006    112    1    2    115    31    3.71
11-2006    70    6    2    78    30    2.6
10-2006    106    2    2    110    31    3.55
9-2006       72    3    2    77    30    2.57
8-2006       65    1    0    66    31    2.13
7-2006       43    1    2    46    31    1.48
6-2006       61    0    2    63    30    2.1
5-2006       69    9    1    79    31    2.55
4-2006       76    1    5    82    30    2.73
3-2006       31    0    2    33    31    1.06
2-2006       55    3    0    58    28    2.07
1-2006       62    2    0    64    31    2.06
12-2005    68    0    0    68    31    2.19
11-2005    84    1    1    86    30    2.87
10-2005    96    2    1    99    31    3.19
9-2005       49    3    0    52    30    1.73
8-2005       85    0    0    85    31    2.74
7-2005       54    3    1    58    31    1.87
6-2005       78    1    4    83    30    2.77
5-2005       80    2    6    88    31    2.84
4-2005       52    0    0    52    30    1.73
3-2005       35    1    3    39    31    1.26
2-2005       58    0    2    60    28    2.14
1-2005       107    10    10    127    31    4.1

Oh it's those darn facts again. 

[Dos Equis]

They volunteered to be killed.  Its to bad they didnt think about their families.  No one was trying to occupy our lands.  Norad and the gov allowed planes to fly into buildings with missles strapped to them.

I wish they would have known (Soldiers) But like hh6 says "Its their job so quit bitching"

Every man and woman who joins the military knows they are preparing for war, even in peacetime.  Combat arms in the Army spend the majority of their time preparing for combat, which means preparing to potentially lose their lives.  They all know this.   

[Decker]

Every man and woman who joins the military knows they are preparing for war, even in peacetime.  Combat arms in the Army spend the majority of their time preparing for combat, which means preparing to potentially lose their lives.  They all know this.   

I would hope that they also know that blind obedience to corrupt/incompetent presidential leadership is not part of their enlistment bargain.

[Brixtonbulldog]

I would hope that they also know that blind obedience to corrupt/incompetent presidential leadership is not part of their enlistment bargain.

Wrong.  Taking orders without question is imperitave to order and discipline.  Do you know ANYTHING about the military??  They sign themselves to not be in a position to dictate terms or make judgement calls on the higher ups. 

And look at our death toll compared to ALL other wars and half your argument against this war flies out the window.

[240 is Back]

Every man and woman who joins the military knows they are preparing for war, even in peacetime.  Combat arms in the Army spend the majority of their time preparing for combat, which means preparing to potentially lose their lives.  They all know this.   

Correct.

Anyone in Iraq right now, signed up or re-enlisted AFTER 911, where they knew they were walking into a war.  Also, most have been exposed to the "possibility" that there were no WMD and that 911 was allowed to happen as a pre-text for a war that was already in the planning stages.

If you are serving, I tip my hat to you.  You're brave and you are risking your skin to ensure our standard of living.  You know why you're there, you know why you joined, and you reap both the beenfits (college, stripe-chasers) and the deficits (physical risks, moral conflict over killing others for oil control).

I salute you.

[240 is Back]

And look at our death toll compared to ALL other wars and half your argument against this war flies out the window.

Poor argument.

97% of the combat deaths, or 3700 brave men and women, have been killed after our commander-in-chief declared victory.

Can you name any other conflict or war, where you lost 33 times more soldiers AFTER winning, than you did in toppling the country? 

[Decker]

Wrong.  Taking orders without question is imperitave to order and discipline.  Do you know ANYTHING about the military??  They sign themselves to not be in a position to dictate terms or make judgement calls on the higher ups. 

There were conscientious objectors even in WWII.

I understand that blind obedience is how some people view the military chain.  I don't think every soldier checks his or her brain at the door to make that possible.

And look at our death toll compared to ALL other wars and half your argument against this war flies out the window.

Really?  Who declared war on whom?  Just between you and me, this little invasion was never a war.  It was an exercise in terrorism.  Did I say 'terrorism'?  I'm sorry, I meant we saved the Iraqis by attacking the Iraqis.

No wait, that's not quite right, We attacked Iraq to make the Iraqis comply with the ongoing UN inspections that Iraq was already complying with.

That can't be right.

Did Iraq attack us?  Did Iraq attack an ally?  Why is the fighting continuing?

I don't know if the reason we fight matters to you at all but it does to me.

I'm sick of seeing US soldiers killed and families ruined b/c the leaders and supporters of the "war" are too damn pigheaded to admit to a mistake.