Author Topic: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread  (Read 97821 times)

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #200 on: June 30, 2008, 05:40:11 PM »
Yeah and asking Milos to explain in detail why it works so much better used around workouts is useless too. He thinks everyone who doesn't immediately accept the theory as fact is just a stupid basement dwelling teenager.  :D
Same with his recent rants about individual amino acids causing much more growth than protein from solid foods. He would have a hard time defending why aminos are better IMO but he is too arrogant to engage in serious debate.

BTW Disgusted, what do you think of the LBA protein Phil Hernon sells?

Is this the liquid beef stuff that he sells? If so I have heard nothing but good things about it. I think it worth a try based on feedback.

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #201 on: June 30, 2008, 05:46:51 PM »
i may be wrong, but i think insulin is best used around the workout due to a theory that insulin stores nutrients in the area of the body that its currently in, (via blood) so during a workout most of the blood of the body is in the muslces, so thats where the storage takes place.

if insulin is used anytime not around workouts then the blood is evenly distributed and nutrients are evenly stored throughout the body.

Sometimes I ask a question or two when trying to answer a question. So I ask you

1. What nutrients are stored in the muscles?
2. How are these nutrients responsible for growth?
3. (If) most of the blood in the body during a workout is in the muscles being trained what extra percentage of blood is in that area and is it different according to the muscle being worked?
4. If all the above is true then how is insulin responsible for the extra growth that occures?

Fatpanda

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9676
  • One getbigger to rule them all.
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #202 on: July 01, 2008, 08:38:42 AM »
Sometimes I ask a question or two when trying to answer a question. So I ask you

1. What nutrients are stored in the muscles?
2. How are these nutrients responsible for growth?
3. (If) most of the blood in the body during a workout is in the muscles being trained what extra percentage of blood is in that area and is it different according to the muscle being worked?
4. If all the above is true then how is insulin responsible for the extra growth that occures?

1. glycogen (and water) from the carbs, amino's from the protein, also creatine, and a few other vitamins and minerals needed for cofactor and coenzyme systhesis within the cells.

2. i)they increase cellular hydration via glycogen (stretch theory), and overcompendsate for future depleting activities.
    ii) they increase ATP levels which the cells need (energy) to grow, and again overcompenates these levels for future activities.
    iii) increase in amino storage within muscle, and overcompensates again.

3. depends on the muscle group/groups being worked, if working the bi's or arms, obviously you wont demand much of the body's total blood volume, but if doing legs or thighs/hams you'll demand much more. how much exactly? I'm not sure, milos claim that at rest approx 12-18% of blood is found in he muscles, with the rest spread out throughout the body. when working out he claims 80% of the blood is found in the muscles with a further increase in circultion too. although i haven't read the studies where he got his figures, it seems perfects reasonable.

4. As i said above i think its because insulin stores nutrients in whatever cells it comes into contact with. with more blood at the muscle during a workout (80%) and hence a greater concentration of insulin (80% of whole body insulin levels) a large increase in nutrient storage occurs there i.e. 80% increase in nutrient storage in the muscle than at rest.

how this works when glycogen stores are full, etc i have no idea. perhaps with the increased enzymes production found in the muscles during workouts, it adds further to the supercompensation levels, and it is this that is responsible for he 40lb increase i muscle mass milos claims insulin is responsible for. although there should still be fat gain of some amount if you really go overboard with the carbs/protein.

someone elsewhere on this site asked a good question - if you need to take an exact amount of carbs to match an insulin injection to avoid 'problems', why do you need exogenous insulin at all as your body already produces the exact amount of insulin for any amount of carbs you eat already, what benefit is there in injecting insulin then? and how has this added 40lb muscle increase ???

in theory you should be able to add this amount of muscle simply by eating larger amounts of carbs/protein around the workout, and slowly increase the amount over time.
175lbs by 31st July

Cleanest Natural

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 28662
  • Diet first, all else second
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #203 on: July 01, 2008, 09:07:24 AM »
fat panda..I believe you are overthinking and overcomplicating this shit...

candidizzle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9046
  • Trueprotein.com 5% discount code= TRB953

Fatpanda

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9676
  • One getbigger to rule them all.
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #205 on: July 01, 2008, 09:54:15 AM »
http://www.exchangesupplies.org/conferences/NCIDU/2007_NCIDU/speakers/william_llewellyn.html

you might like that

bill llewellyn speech on insulin use

good find.

yip, pretty much exactly what i said, except for my random thoughts at the bottom of my post.
175lbs by 31st July

Milos_Sarcev

  • Pros
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4160
  • http://www.milossarcev.com
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #206 on: July 01, 2008, 12:14:06 PM »
Hey guys. Chaos invited me to join this thread but I am not sure what is in question?
I suppose INSULIN - but I am not sure...

I did manage to read first post on this page and off course - my best friend Van B again nicely puts: Milos doesn't want to elaborate and considers everyone stupid IF they don't listen to his advice...type of comment...

Well, I am here to possibly answer some questions and certainly not to argue and fight...

Disgusted is someone I respect and like (so far I've seen only the very best from him...) so - if I can contribute here on his thread - I certainly will. At least I'll try. Problem is - that I do work for living...and I can take too many "breaks" (when I visit this board) like I did before...

But, I'll try...

So - what's the question?

Fatpanda

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9676
  • One getbigger to rule them all.
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #207 on: July 01, 2008, 12:39:05 PM »
Hey guys. Chaos invited me to join this thread but I am not sure what is in question?
I suppose INSULIN - but I am not sure...

I did manage to read first post on this page and off course - my best friend Van B again nicely puts: Milos doesn't want to elaborate and considers everyone stupid IF they don't listen to his advice...type of comment...

Well, I am here to possibly answer some questions and certainly not to argue and fight...

Disgusted is someone I respect and like (so far I've seen only the very best from him...) so - if I can contribute here on his thread - I certainly will. At least I'll try. Problem is - that I do work for living...and I can take too many "breaks" (when I visit this board) like I did before...

But, I'll try...

So - what's the question?

if you need to take an exact amount of carbs to match an insulin injection to avoid 'problems'/ exact amount of insulin to match carb intake, why do you need exogenous insulin at all as your body already produces the exact amount of insulin for any amount of carbs you eat already, what benefit is there in injecting insulin then?

and how has this added 40lb muscle increase ?

175lbs by 31st July

Van_Bilderass

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14758
  • "Don't Try"
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #208 on: July 01, 2008, 01:32:16 PM »
I did manage to read first post on this page and off course - my best friend Van B again nicely puts: Milos doesn't want to elaborate and considers everyone stupid IF they don't listen to his advice...type of comment...

I'll give an example of a question I asked that you didn't really answer. Remember how you hyped Vitargo a while back? I asked you why you didn't use low molecular weight carbs as the carb source in your product since you seemed to consider them superior. I'm not saying it would necessarily improve the product as I think you can get the same result from whey + dextrose as your product but you said you only put the best of the best in your product.

....

I'm personally not convinced Free Form Aminos are superior to whole food protein sources (if you include something like whey as a whole food), and I think you'd get the same EAA blood elevations from whey - maybe slightly delayed. And if speed is what you want I think peptides have been shown to be even faster than EAAs. And then you shouldn't forget that whole food sources have other beneficial effects from a health and growth standpoint. Immune system and antioxidant support from whey for example. Dr Scott Connely has been working on special milk protein fractions that he claims have dramatic effects. So, I don't think Free Form Aminos are the future in cutting edge supplementation as you think.

 :)

Van_Bilderass

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14758
  • "Don't Try"
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #209 on: July 01, 2008, 01:34:14 PM »
if you need to take an exact amount of carbs to match an insulin injection to avoid 'problems'/ exact amount of insulin to match carb intake, why do you need exogenous insulin at all as your body already produces the exact amount of insulin for any amount of carbs you eat already, what benefit is there in injecting insulin then?

and how has this added 40lb muscle increase ?



Yep, I believe I asked that question numerous times. I'd settle for "I don't know exactly why injections are superior" if there isn't another good answer. I don't see the answer as being obvious, contrary to Milos.

Here's an article that attempts to answer how it helps performance:
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/170/1/13

candidizzle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9046
  • Trueprotein.com 5% discount code= TRB953
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #210 on: July 01, 2008, 01:36:40 PM »
Dr Scott Connely has been working on special milk protein fractions that he claims have dramatic effects.
 :)
i just ordered some truprotein milk protein isolate 50% + whey protein isolate 50% !!

i am excited now after reading connely likes milk fractions too !

Van_Bilderass

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14758
  • "Don't Try"
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #211 on: July 01, 2008, 01:39:50 PM »
i just ordered some truprotein milk protein isolate 50% + whey protein isolate 50% !!

i am excited now after reading connely likes milk fractions too !

These are extra special fractions though, taken in capsule form. He has to go through tons of protein to get a tiny amount of these fractions supposedly. Patrick Arnold, Milos' buddy, has been testing them recently and he said he noticed some effects immediately. I don't know if they are on the market yet. If I'm not mistaken Mindspin sent a sample of these to 240 some time ago.

Connely was on NBR talking about his product a while back.

candidizzle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9046
  • Trueprotein.com 5% discount code= TRB953
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #212 on: July 01, 2008, 01:56:28 PM »
i am exited for those to hit the market

milk is a super cool food (well, FAT FREE milk LOL)...as far as how it works in the body and its protein make up and what not



milos-
accoriding to a recent study caffiene blunts the insulin receptor on the fat cell and allows for much better glycogen replenishment...   you have any experience using caffiene with your slin  protocal to avoid fat gain ?

chaos

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57395
  • Ron "There is no freedom of speech here" Avidan
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #213 on: July 01, 2008, 07:27:57 PM »
if you need to take an exact amount of carbs to match an insulin injection to avoid 'problems'/ exact amount of insulin to match carb intake, why do you need exogenous insulin at all as your body already produces the exact amount of insulin for any amount of carbs you eat already, what benefit is there in injecting insulin then?

and how has this added 40lb muscle increase ?


Here is one question on insulin about the benefitof it as well as how it's use leads to a 40lb muscle increase.......

And Van B's question
Quote
I asked you why you didn't use low molecular weight carbs as the carb source in your product since you seemed to consider them superior.

Also I believe the original question was about how often insulin is used, how many times per day or is it pro/post workout?

I didn't send Milos a direct link so he had no idea where to look for the insulin question, so hopefully when he gets the chance he can answer these questions here, without the trouble of being bashed for his opinion. ;)

Hope you don't mind Disgusted, I just thought it would be an easy way to get Milos' opinion on the matter since, I am guessing, many people here consider him the authority on insulin for whatever reason.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Fatpanda

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9676
  • One getbigger to rule them all.
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #214 on: July 02, 2008, 07:26:35 AM »
Here is one question on insulin about the benefitof it as well as how it's use leads to a 40lb muscle increase.......



perhaps i did not explain or ask very well chaos or perhaps you missed the point of the question - yes 40lb increases in muscle amoung the pro's is obviously a benefit of taking insulin.

But how does exogenous insulin work better than endogenous insulin? and why does it produce these jumps in muscle mass? can endogenous insulin not produce these same results with clever nutrition?
175lbs by 31st July

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #215 on: July 02, 2008, 01:07:40 PM »
Guys, I will responed in length later today. Got a virus on my computer.  :(

chaos

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57395
  • Ron "There is no freedom of speech here" Avidan
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #216 on: July 02, 2008, 05:40:09 PM »
Guys, I will responed in length later today. Got a virus on my computer.  :(
That absolutely sucks, that's about the time I f*cking hate computers. >:(



perhaps i did not explain or ask very well chaos or perhaps you missed the point of the question - yes 40lb increases in muscle amoung the pro's is obviously a benefit of taking insulin.

But how does exogenous insulin work better than endogenous insulin? and why does it produce these jumps in muscle mass? can endogenous insulin not produce these same results with clever nutrition?
I thought I understood it, that's why I quoted your post so he could read it himself.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Milos_Sarcev

  • Pros
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4160
  • http://www.milossarcev.com
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #217 on: July 02, 2008, 05:48:14 PM »
I'll give an example of a question I asked that you didn't really answer. Remember how you hyped Vitargo a while back? I asked you why you didn't use low molecular weight carbs as the carb source in your product since you seemed to consider them superior. I'm not saying it would necessarily improve the product as I think you can get the same result from whey + dextrose as your product but you said you only put the best of the best in your product.

....

I'm personally not convinced Free Form Aminos are superior to whole food protein sources (if you include something like whey as a whole food), and I think you'd get the same EAA blood elevations from whey - maybe slightly delayed. And if speed is what you want I think peptides have been shown to be even faster than EAAs. And then you shouldn't forget that whole food sources have other beneficial effects from a health and growth standpoint. Immune system and antioxidant support from whey for example. Dr Scott Connely has been working on special milk protein fractions that he claims have dramatic effects. So, I don't think Free Form Aminos are the future in cutting edge supplementation as you think.

 :)

I'll give an example of a question I asked that you didn't really answer. Remember how you hyped Vitargo a while back? I asked you why you didn't use low molecular weight carbs as the carb source in your product since you seemed to consider them superior. I'm not saying it would necessarily improve the product as I think you can get the same result from whey + dextrose as your product but you said you only put the best of the best in your product.

Van, NO - I don't remember your example and a question...Where/when did you ask me that?
Now - I do remember TALKING about VITARGO and I was mentioning POSSIBLE BENEFITS and/or ADVENTAGES over simple monomers, dimers or some polymers when saccharides are in question...but right there you are making obvious mistake:
VITARGO is HIGH MOLECULAR WEIGHT (NOT LOW ::)) glucose polymer and as you mention IF I believed it is superior - why didn't I use it?

I experimented with Vitargo and other GLYCO(mono/di/oligo/poly)MERS with variety of molecular weight/osmolility...And, what I found is that IF sub 75grams servings are used - there is hardly noticeable difference...

While in theory VITARGO and other high molecular weight glucose polymers (waxy maize, cluster-dextrins...) have favorable osmolility and much faster (and therefore beneficial) gastric emptying...in reality THAT IS HARDLY A CASE.
Especially as I said - when amounts of carbs per servings DO NOT EXCEED 75 grams (most commonly 25-50 grams) than I really don't see a reason spending even MORE MONEY on making already expensive product (like my KNS 3 stage hyper-anabolic system).

If reasoning to take any glucose polymer is to get molecule of glucose at the end...than why not just give EXACTLY what body is asking for: a GLUCOSE (or DEXTROSE)...which is rather - dirt cheep!

I would much rather spend my money on HIGH QUALITY AJINOPURE AMINO ACIDS (by far superior to just about any other AA on the supplement market - IMHO) than invest money on VITARGO...If I could color my KNS amino acid bland - I will guaranteely see EXACT COLOR of the muscle fibers of particular trained muscle - which I trained using my BEFORE-DURING-POST KNS shakes...the very next day....

I will also - much rather spend the money on IV solution grade pharmaceutical amino acids (AJINOPURE from Ajinomoto) produced by process of fermentation than some questionable (mostly Chinese...and should I suggest: potentially toxic?) amino acids made out of human hair (as it is industry standard...which nobody talks about it...)...YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT...and IF YOU USE HYPEREMIA ADVANTAGE (as I do - during the training + specific supplementation) that saying becames a FACT!


Ooops - got to go...I'll come back ASAIC...

candidizzle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9046
  • Trueprotein.com 5% discount code= TRB953
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #218 on: July 02, 2008, 05:52:46 PM »
MILOS WHEN YOU COME BACK I AM INTERESTED IN THE CAFFIEN ISSUE...IF YOU HAVE USED IT TO PREVENT FAT ACCUMLUATION WITH INSULIN ADMINISTRATION..ALSO, IF YOU COULD OUTLINE YOUR SPECIFIC INSULIN PROTOCOL

(i didnt mean for the caps lock)

Stavios

  • Guest
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #219 on: July 02, 2008, 09:24:43 PM »
MILOS WHEN YOU COME BACK I AM INTERESTED IN THE CAFFIEN ISSUE...IF YOU HAVE USED IT TO PREVENT FAT ACCUMLUATION WITH INSULIN ADMINISTRATION..ALSO, IF YOU COULD OUTLINE YOUR SPECIFIC INSULIN PROTOCOL

(i didnt mean for the caps lock)

Milos will never ever give out his specifid insulin protocol.

like he always says, he prefer to teach people how to fish rather than to give them a fish.

and I pretty much agree with that since anyway, people pay him to know his protocols, why would he give them out for free on the boards ?

Fatpanda

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9676
  • One getbigger to rule them all.
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #220 on: July 02, 2008, 11:07:40 PM »
i would like an answer to my question if possible, or a link to a study that would explain it. :)
175lbs by 31st July

Milos_Sarcev

  • Pros
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4160
  • http://www.milossarcev.com
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #221 on: July 02, 2008, 11:28:01 PM »
i would like an answer to my question if possible, or a link to a study that would explain it. :)

Hi Kung-Fu Panda...or just Fat (?) Panda...?

Would you like it - immediately, right away, this second...or...some time in the far/near future? ::)


Now, can you also (if possible?) THINK before you ask the question - so I don't have to answer: "grass is green, sky is blue...and Coach is as fat as Kung-Fu Panda"... ;)

Fatpanda

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9676
  • One getbigger to rule them all.
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #222 on: July 03, 2008, 04:39:52 AM »
Hey guys. Chaos invited me to join this thread but I am not sure what is in question?

Well, I am here to possibly answer some questions and certainly not to argue and fight...

Disgusted is someone I respect and like (so far I've seen only the very best from him...) so - if I can contribute here on his thread - I certainly will. At least I'll try. Problem is - that I do work for living...and I can take too many "breaks" (when I visit this board) like I did before...

But, I'll try...

So - what's the question?

Hi Kung-Fu Panda...or just Fat (?) Panda...?

Would you like it - immediately, right away, this second...or...some time in the far/near future? ::)


Now, can you also (if possible?) THINK before you ask the question - so I don't have to answer: "grass is green, sky is blue...and Coach is as fat as Kung-Fu Panda"... ;)

I could say a lot here, but i'll settle for telling you that you were a pro who i admired for various reasons, not lease of all you willingness to help others. I also felt you have kept your dignity when others have went out of their way to insult and ridicule you.

Your response to my question after i asked a perfectly polite and civil question (after you invite questions), does injustice to me, disgusted and the others who have tried to participate in an interesting discussion.

you have went down in my estimation, and while you no doubt don't care one bit about that, you should be aware that you have only highlighted why disgusted gets so much respect around here, while you struggle.

Thanks for nothing.
175lbs by 31st July

Van_Bilderass

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14758
  • "Don't Try"
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #223 on: July 03, 2008, 05:08:56 AM »
Van, NO - I don't remember your example and a question...Where/when did you ask me that?
Now - I do remember TALKING about VITARGO and I was mentioning POSSIBLE BENEFITS and/or ADVENTAGES over simple monomers, dimers or some polymers when saccharides are in question...but right there you are making obvious mistake:
VITARGO is HIGH MOLECULAR WEIGHT (NOT LOW ::)) glucose polymer and as you mention IF I believed it is superior - why didn't I use it?

I experimented with Vitargo and other GLYCO(mono/di/oligo/poly)MERS with variety of molecular weight/osmolility...And, what I found is that IF sub 75grams servings are used - there is hardly noticeable difference...

While in theory VITARGO and other high molecular weight glucose polymers (waxy maize, cluster-dextrins...) have favorable osmolility and much faster (and therefore beneficial) gastric emptying...in reality THAT IS HARDLY A CASE.
Especially as I said - when amounts of carbs per servings DO NOT EXCEED 75 grams (most commonly 25-50 grams) than I really don't see a reason spending even MORE MONEY on making already expensive product (like my KNS 3 stage hyper-anabolic system).

If reasoning to take any glucose polymer is to get molecule of glucose at the end...than why not just give EXACTLY what body is asking for: a GLUCOSE (or DEXTROSE)...which is rather - dirt cheep!

I would much rather spend my money on HIGH QUALITY AJINOPURE AMINO ACIDS (by far superior to just about any other AA on the supplement market - IMHO) than invest money on VITARGO...If I could color my KNS amino acid bland - I will guaranteely see EXACT COLOR of the muscle fibers of particular trained muscle - which I trained using my BEFORE-DURING-POST KNS shakes...the very next day....

I will also - much rather spend the money on IV solution grade pharmaceutical amino acids (AJINOPURE from Ajinomoto) produced by process of fermentation than some questionable (mostly Chinese...and should I suggest: potentially toxic?) amino acids made out of human hair (as it is industry standard...which nobody talks about it...)...YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT...and IF YOU USE HYPEREMIA ADVANTAGE (as I do - during the training + specific supplementation) that saying becames a FACT!


Ooops - got to go...I'll come back ASAIC...


Alright, thanks for the answer. My bad on the "low", should have been "high molecular weight".   ::) :D
Yes I thought it was probably too expensive to use for a small potential advantage.   

Don't know if there is any difference in the amino acids no matter what it's derived from. Layne Norton, who is an expert, said there is no difference.* I also asked a few big supp companies and they denied using human hair aminos - I think it was just one amino that was commonly made from hair - I think glycine.

*
http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showpost.php?p=219820&postcount=112

Milos_Sarcev

  • Pros
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4160
  • http://www.milossarcev.com
Re: Ask Disgusted.....Q&A thread
« Reply #224 on: July 03, 2008, 09:29:26 AM »

Alright, thanks for the answer. My bad on the "low", should have been "high molecular weight".   ::) :D
Yes I thought it was probably too expensive to use for a small potential advantage.   

Don't know if there is any difference in the amino acids no matter what it's derived from. Layne Norton, who is an expert, said there is no difference.* I also asked a few big supp companies and they denied using human hair aminos - I think it was just one amino that was commonly made from hair - I think glycine.

*
http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showpost.php?p=219820&postcount=112

Van, fair enough...
But, I will suggest that we don't take too much of Disgusting space/thread...and move our conversation on my thread right bellow... ;D

What??? Jim, I said something wrong? ;D...Speak no English excuse doesn't work this time?


Anyway, how is your rash? Getting better?  ;D

*** Reminder *** Keep it positive or your post will be deleted ;D ;D ;D***

*** Reminder *** Keep it positive or your post will be deleted 8) 8) 8)***

*** Reminder *** Keep it positive or your post will be deleted :-* :-* :-****