Author Topic: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'  (Read 8661 times)

Benny B

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Justice 5, Brutality 4
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2008, 11:42:39 AM »
June 13, 2008
Editorial

Justice 5, Brutality 4
For years, with the help of compliant Republicans and frightened Democrats in Congress, President Bush has denied the protections of justice, democracy and plain human decency to the hundreds of men that he decided to label “unlawful enemy combatants” and throw into never-ending detention.

Twice the Supreme Court swatted back his imperial overreaching, and twice Congress helped Mr. Bush try to open a gaping loophole in the Constitution. On Thursday, the court turned back the most recent effort to subvert justice with a stirring defense of habeas corpus, the right of anyone being held by the government to challenge his confinement before a judge.

The court ruled that the detainees being held in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, have that cherished right, and that the process for them to challenge their confinement is inadequate. It was a very good day for people who value freedom and abhor Mr. Bush’s attempts to turn Guantánamo Bay into a constitutional-rights-free zone.

The right of habeas corpus is so central to the American legal system that it has its own clause in the Constitution: it cannot be suspended except “when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.”

Despite this, the Bush administration repeatedly tried to strip away habeas rights. First, it herded prisoners who were seized in Afghanistan, and in other foreign countries, into the United States Navy base at Guantánamo Bay and claimed that since the base is on foreign territory, the detainees’ habeas cases could not be heard in the federal courts. In 2004, the court rejected that argument, ruling that Guantánamo, which is under American control, is effectively part of the United States.

In 2006, the court handed the administration another defeat, ruling that it had relied improperly on the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 to hold the detainees on Guantánamo without giving them habeas rights. Since then, Congress passed another law, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 that tried — and failed horribly — to fix the problems with the Detainee Treatment Act.

Now, by a 5-to-4 vote, the court has affirmed the detainees’ habeas rights. The majority, in an opinion by Justice Anthony Kennedy, ruled that the Military Commissions Act violates the Suspension Clause, by eliminating habeas corpus although the requirements of the Constitution — invasion or rebellion — do not exist.

The court ruled that the military tribunals that are hearing the detainees’ cases — the administration’s weak alternative to habeas proceedings in a federal court — are not an adequate substitute. The hearings cut back on basic due process protections, like the right to counsel and the right to present evidence of innocence.

It was disturbing that four justices dissented from this eminently reasonable decision. The lead dissent, by Chief Justice John Roberts, dismisses habeas as “most fundamentally a procedural right.” Chief Justice Roberts thinks the detainees receive such “generous” protections at their hearings that the majority should not have worried about whether they had habeas rights.

There is an enormous gulf between the substance and tone of the majority opinion, with its rich appreciation of the liberties that the founders wrote into the Constitution, and the what-is-all-the-fuss-about dissent. It is sobering to think that habeas hangs by a single vote in the Supreme Court of the United States — a reminder that the composition of the court could depend on the outcome of this year’s presidential election. The ruling is a major victory for civil liberties — but a timely reminder of how fragile they are.
!

youandme

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2008, 11:52:10 AM »


That's what separates us from them.



Yes your right we don't behead prisoners.

Instead we give them prayer time, 5 course meals, air conditioned units ( U.S troops sleep in tents), telephone privelage, and their holy shit Koran.

Yeah I think you esablished the fact we are seperate from them.   ::)

chaos

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2008, 06:20:41 PM »

Pathetic my ass.

These are prisoners. Time to take them to court and have them put on trial.

Nothing pathetic with that.

That's what civil persons like us do.

That's what separates us from them.

We treat our enemies like humans, we don't torture, we don't hold without trial et al.

We don't send detainees to dictatures to get them tortured.


One of many reasons for impeaching Bush, is because he's likely responsible for many of these actions.


Liberal my ass.

It's about doing what's right. Knowing what a democracy is.

If you're democratically challenged, like Bush seems to be, perhaps it's time for impeachment.
Reasons like this is why the American public should be kept uninformed on what is going on over there. We need to set a goal and achieve that goal at all costs, people whining and crying about "human rights" don't need to see what should be happening. Instead we get the media coverage and every move our guys make is scrutinized to no end, it's like a choker leash, time to take it off and let ours boys run amok.

And besides, our soldiers are not in America, they are in Iraq, why do they have to follow American rules? They should be held to the same standards and rules as the opposition.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

OzmO

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2008, 06:41:54 PM »
Everyone has certain inalienable rights.

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2008, 07:01:26 PM »
We need to set a goal and achieve that goal at all costs, people whining and crying about "human rights" don't need to see what should be happening.

I would have no issue with that if it was universal. But if the USA is going to offer refuge, safety even money to terrorists, on the basis that their human rights may be violated by other nations - they should follow the same guidelines. But they hold themself above it, and expect the world to do what they say, when they don't.

In the case of harbouring our terrorist, 95% of us have exemplary human rights records [see my prior post] and offered the USA to act as observer plus the EU always does in major cases anyway here.  He is convicted, admitted it, it is like 15 years old, the terrorist group is defunct, his incarceration is all we seek, not knowledge - the reason normally given for torture.

So to use the excuse of our suspected torture [which is ludicrous at best on many levels] to harbour a high level terrorist - then turn around and commit mass scale torture on men for years, deny them rights - when they are not even convicted is irony defined.

US should practice what they preach to the world and not condone it, or simply not preach it. Either works. People will quote nations like China and Russia, and gloss over the the other 217 nations, many of which have solid human rights, democratically run, are "free" - and look at the US's actions with horror. Many Americans themselves have commented how much damage it has done to them in the worlds eyes - and it as.

chaos

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2008, 08:31:23 PM »
Everyone has certain inalienable rights.
Such as?
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youandme

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2008, 09:09:10 PM »
Everyone has certain inalienable rights.

bhaha who said that Rousseau?

Not

No one has rights this land is not theirs someone else made the rules and the 1 job of the Federal government (reference the constitution) is "protect the people"

Just like John Locke said about the Indians "slay them like ravaged lyons"

But don't worry over this issue too much. Cause it sucks for them, they are going to regret this since Gitmo was like a fairytale after the trials they won't be in the US occupied zones but they will be going to offshore prisons, some very very bad ones.
I doubt they will even be able to have the Koran in these offshore prisons.

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2008, 12:09:19 AM »
bhaha who said that Rousseau?

Not

No one has rights this land is not theirs someone else made the rules and the 1 job of the Federal government (reference the constitution) is "protect the people"

Just like John Locke said about the Indians "slay them like ravaged lyons"

But don't worry over this issue too much. Cause it sucks for them, they are going to regret this since Gitmo was like a fairytale after the trials they won't be in the US occupied zones but they will be going to offshore prisons, some very very bad ones.
I doubt they will even be able to have the Koran in these offshore prisons.

Everyone has a right to fair treatment.

Throwing people on secret prison ships, abusing them, etc...   Is all good if they are truly guilty, the problem is, some may not be.


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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2008, 04:40:26 AM »
Point and Question:

Point: People seem to forget that 'friendly' nations citizens have been held for years and tortured. Canada, Sweden, France, Australia, Britain and Germany have all had their nationals held as well. And I don't mean just naturalised people, but born and bred citizens, as in white folk lol. USA freely admits they think it is fine to "kidnap" people from friendly nations, not even need them to be in some combat zone or have any legal right to get them. Australia and Britain fought alongside the USA in Iraq, but had their citizens in Gitmo. Need I say elements of Australia and Britain were outraged by this.

Question - but they let these guys go? If they are so dangerous to be held in cage and tortured, why are they let go? Either they should not have had that happen to them, or they should not be let go? We know the US cares less about their rights or costs, so it's not that. Genuine question - can anyone fill me on on that?

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2008, 05:42:34 AM »
i remember when we grabbed that canadian programmer, beat the shit outta him for months in syria, the dropped him off home with a "my bad, wrong guy!"

did he ever sue?

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2008, 07:20:57 AM »
Everyone has a right to fair treatment.

Throwing people on secret prison ships, abusing them, etc...   Is all good if they are truly guilty, the problem is, some may not be.



Any person still in Gitmo is most likely guilty.

This cracks me up. Why should these guys be entitled to fair treatment? Like any of you actually give two shits about their "inalienable" rights. Just another thing to bitch about. You guys show more sympathy for terrorists than people/soldiers who are kidnapped, tortured (involving such means as eye gouging, amputation, rape) and beheading. Very, very pathetic.

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2008, 08:17:43 AM »
"To win at all costs."


Be careful what you ask for.

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2008, 08:34:53 AM »
"To win at all costs."


Be careful what you ask for.
To win without having to hold back.

To accomplish a goal without the media scrutinizing every soldiers move.


Get the media out of Iraq, our boys will be home by summer 09.
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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2008, 08:35:48 AM »
To win without having to hold back.
To accomplish a goal without the media scrutinizing every soldiers move.
Get the media out of Iraq, our boys will be home by summer 09.

Should we withdraw from geneva convention agreement then?

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2008, 08:39:04 AM »
Should we withdraw from geneva convention agreement then?

According to some on here, we already violate multiple aspects of the convention. Why stop now?  ???


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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2008, 08:47:13 AM »
According to some on here, we already violate multiple aspects of the convention. Why stop now?  ???

Okay.  If/when Russia or china or venezueal or Africa captures any of our forces, we should expect mass torture and executions on public tv on a governmental level.  Not the 20-30 horrible behadings we've seen of troops in this war.  No, we should expect to see hundreds of captured US forces disemboweled on TV, then drawn and quartered by horses in the town square.  All on high-def of course, and broadcast to the world.

Is that what you want?  Because that will be the result if we quit geneva.  You see, you're letting the actions of a few dozen idiots - how many beheadings of Us forces can you name?  20? 30 tops?

You're letting that skew your vision of the bigger picture when we get in a REAL war and geneva keeps our men alive and unharmed in WAY bigger nuymbers.    Please don't let iraq war be your only guide to POW history.

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2008, 08:51:44 AM »
Okay.  If/when Russia or china or venezueal or Africa captures any of our forces, we should expect mass torture and executions on public tv on a governmental level.  Not the 20-30 horrible behadings we've seen of troops in this war.  No, we should expect to see hundreds of captured US forces disemboweled on TV, then drawn and quartered by horses in the town square.  All on high-def of course, and broadcast to the world.

Is that what you want?  Because that will be the result if we quit geneva.  You see, you're letting the actions of a few dozen idiots - how many beheadings of Us forces can you name?  20? 30 tops?

You're letting that skew your vision of the bigger picture when we get in a REAL war and geneva keeps our men alive and unharmed in WAY bigger nuymbers.    Please don't let iraq war be your only guide to POW history.

Russia violates the Geneva conventions ALL THE TIME. China has a horrendous human rights record. Look at the treatment of Chechens and Tibetans. Talk about a broken record.  ::)

Yes, the USA is the ONLY country that treats people poorly. Give me a break with that bullshit. Our human rights record pales in comparison to those two countries, PALES. I don't see you crying about them. Instead people care more about terrorists than US soldiers. It's disgusting. The evidence shows a number of these guys going straight back into combat after release.

How come you never cite Russian or Chinese atrocities? Why should we listen to other countries complaints when they can't practice what they preach? I value American lives higher than Russian/Chinese opinion. 

I never see people crying about innocent Americans spending time in jail for murders they didn't commit. It's the same exact thing, only worse. But hey, joe blow Saudi Arabian who was handed over by his own government deserves more sympathy. If a few "innocent" guys end up mixed in with the hundreds of bad guys they've got, then that's the way the world works. If they're innocent, they'll end up released, like most of the innocent ones already from Gitmo. I'm not about to call for the abolishment of our justice system just because some innocent guys ended up in jail, am I? ::)

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2008, 09:08:01 AM »
i'm not saying these counties don't break the rules.

I'm saying that in the macro sense, thousands of our men and women could face a terrible fate if we're not in geneva.  Yes, fvcked up shit happens, but it happens in the small scale.  Imagine china putting 1000 troops executions on youtube. it'd break the families heart and just be a horrible thing.  Yes, a few jihadists pricks do it, but it's not policy. 

I'm not giving any sympathy to "joe blow Saudi Arabia".  Stop ignorantly assigning that belief to me, please.

chaos

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2008, 09:20:53 AM »
Should we withdraw from geneva convention agreement then?
Why not? Does Iraq follow the geneva convention? Does some little wnnabe toweliban follow it? Play by the same rules as your enemy, that's what I say!

Okay.  If/when Russia or china or venezueal or Africa captures any of our forces, we should expect mass torture and executions on public tv on a governmental level.  Not the 20-30 horrible behadings we've seen of troops in this war.  No, we should expect to see hundreds of captured US forces disemboweled on TV, then drawn and quartered by horses in the town square.  All on high-def of course, and broadcast to the world.

Is that what you want?  Because that will be the result if we quit geneva.  You see, you're letting the actions of a few dozen idiots - how many beheadings of Us forces can you name?  20? 30 tops?

You're letting that skew your vision of the bigger picture when we get in a REAL war and geneva keeps our men alive and unharmed in WAY bigger nuymbers.    Please don't let iraq war be your only guide to POW history.
You're assuming they won't do that anyway. You're assuming that other countries are going to follow geneva.......big assumptions. You don't think these things happens anyway?
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2008, 09:26:55 AM »
Why not? Does Iraq follow the geneva convention? Does some little wnnabe toweliban follow it? Play by the same rules as your enemy, that's what I say!
You're assuming they won't do that anyway. You're assuming that other countries are going to follow geneva.......big assumptions. You don't think these things happens anyway?

in the past, nations have generally followed geneva.  Yes, you have people break it all aountries, including ours, and yes, they go to prison for it in other countries, including ours.

that's what ppl here aren't separating... isolated incidents vs policy.

The iraq govt treats their prisoners well, acc'ding to geneva.
Yes, you have a group of killers - lawbreakers - who don't follow geneva.

but 99% of people and groups in war DO follow it, historically.

Ask any military person here if they think we should withdraw from geneva.  You're letting 2 dozen horrible youtube clips skew 200 years warfare, and men that were protected from harm due to geneva.

chaos

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2008, 09:31:34 AM »
in the past, nations have generally followed geneva.  Yes, you have people break it all aountries, including ours, and yes, they go to prison for it in other countries, including ours.

that's what ppl here aren't separating... isolated incidents vs policy.

The iraq govt treats their prisoners well, acc'ding to geneva.
Yes, you have a group of killers - lawbreakers - who don't follow geneva.

but 99% of people and groups in war DO follow it, historically.

Ask any military person here if they think we should withdraw from geneva.  You're letting 2 dozen horrible youtube clips skew 200 years warfare, and men that were protected from harm due to geneva.
Then why is the focus only on American troops?
I say pull the media out of Iraq, this will be over soon enough. Leave the media there, it drags on forever.
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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2008, 09:33:36 AM »
Then why is the focus only on American troops?
I say pull the media out of Iraq, this will be over soon enough. Leave the media there, it drags on forever.

The ones doing beheadings have been labeled by the world as lawbreakers.

We are the ones enforcing the law.

We have a higher standard.  They get killed when they are found.  We get oil.  The minute you say "they do it, so we can do it", the UN asks us to leave.  No more oil.

chaos

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2008, 09:38:20 AM »
The ones doing beheadings have been labeled by the world as lawbreakers.

We are the ones enforcing the law.

We have a higher standard.  They get killed when they are found.  We get oil.  The minute you say "they do it, so we can do it", the UN asks us to leave.  No more oil.
Like it would be the first time we told the UN to fuck themselves. ::)

They didn't want us there in the first place, right?
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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2008, 09:40:07 AM »
Like it would be the first time we told the UN to fuck themselves. ::)

They didn't want us there in the first place, right?

I dont want to argue this anymore.

Geneva exists for our troops safety.

chaos

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Re: Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2008, 09:54:09 AM »
I dont want to argue this anymore.

Geneva exists for our troops safety.
Agree.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!