Author Topic: Evolution is Fact  (Read 14915 times)

Nordic Superman

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Evolution is Fact
« on: August 26, 2008, 03:48:48 AM »
How do the religious people on here handle that? ???
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mightymouse72

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2008, 05:11:16 AM »
prove it- that's how i handle it.  I have a book from the God who says he created us.  But i guess that's not good enough for some people.

I've never heard the term The "fact" of evolution.
There never has, no will there ever be, a overall consensus from science on evolution.
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2008, 07:09:44 AM »
False, evolution is a fact.

The evidence supporting this natural mechanism for development is well backed up by genetic and fossil evidence.

Evolution has been observed in nature. The theory behind evolution (dominantly Darwin's theory of natural selection) is what can be debated, evolution however is a process that exists.
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mightymouse72

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2008, 08:09:43 AM »
Does evolution explain how man came into being?
Or are these two different subjects?  (I am going somewhere with this.)
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Deicide

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2008, 08:10:56 AM »
Does evolution explain how man came into being?
Or are these two different subjects?  (I am going somewhere with this.)

They are two different subjects. Evolution deals with how we got here after the first life appeared.
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mightymouse72

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2008, 08:15:01 AM »
They are two different subjects. Evolution deals with how we got here after the first life appeared.

According to these scientists, how did the first life appear?
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Deicide

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2008, 08:17:37 AM »
According to these scientists, how did the first life appear?

Nobody knows; that is the point: these people are not replacing their ignorance with false certainty. When a scientist doesn't know something he admits, but you have to go on to claim that an old book written by goat herders contains the answer to this question.
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2008, 08:19:37 AM »
Does evolution explain how man came into being?
Or are these two different subjects?  (I am going somewhere with this.)

Evolution is the process of how the first life form developed to become man, and everything around us. It doesn't explain anything, it's a process. Natural selection by Darwin provides the most accepted theory on explain how evolution works.

According to these scientists, how did the first life appear?

Many theories, organic compounds in the atmosphere charged by lightning. Crystallizing structures (clay, salts etc.) which are self replicating in their very nature might have also provided the kick start. Clay for example replicates with "mutations" which subsequent crystals inherit.

None of the above is a definite fact like evolution is tho.
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mightymouse72

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2008, 08:31:43 AM »
No boday knows; that is the point: these people are not replacing their ignorance with false certainty. When a scientist doesn't know something he admits, but you have to go on to claim that an old book written by goat herders contains the answer to this question.

OK, this subject has been debated on this board a thousand times.  And this is where a good debate usually ends-with the above adolescent comments. 
I am more than willing to listen to you guys arguements but you are just too hate-filled and ignorant.  You spend more time on this board spewing you hatred to anyone who has a belief in God.  I don't understand why.  If you hate religion, God or the belief of, then why spend so much time here.  Let the ones that want to discuss something do so without your vitriol.
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2008, 08:35:07 AM »
OK, this subject has been debated on this board a thousand times.  And this is where a good debate usually ends-with the above adolescent comments. 
I am more than willing to listen to you guys arguements but you are just too hate-filled and ignorant.  You spend more time on this board spewing you hatred to anyone who has a belief in God.  I don't understand why.  If you hate religion, God or the belief of, then why spend so much time here.  Let the ones that want to discuss something do so without your vitriol.

I'm guilty for Deicide's patronizing simply because we're both atheists? A bit of a cop-out don't you think?
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mightymouse72

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2008, 08:55:14 AM »
Evolution is the process of how the first life form developed to become man, and everything around us. It doesn't explain anything, it's a process. Natural selection by Darwin provides the most accepted theory on explain how evolution works.

Many theories, organic compounds in the atmosphere charged by lightning. Crystallizing structures (clay, salts etc.) which are self replicating in their very nature might have also provided the kick start. Clay for example replicates with "mutations" which subsequent crystals inherit.

None of the above is a definite fact like evolution is tho.


I highlighted in your comment above what I believe to be your weak points. 
What was the first life form?  Where did the organic compounds come from?  Or lightning?  How about crystallizing structures? 

What I mean to say is you can't really answer those questions.  You just believe they existed with no explanation and then let your arguement stop there.  If Darwinist want to believe man eventually came from the "organic compounds" you mentioned above, then fine.  But I feel they are leaving out a BIG part of their case.  Somehow those "compunds" and "crystals" came into existence. 

Every mathematician in the world will tell you that you can't get something from nothing

 
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Deicide

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2008, 09:03:01 AM »
OK, this subject has been debated on this board a thousand times.  And this is where a good debate usually ends-with the above adolescent comments. 
I am more than willing to listen to you guys arguements but you are just too hate-filled and ignorant.  You spend more time on this board spewing you hatred to anyone who has a belief in God.  I don't understand why.  If you hate religion, God or the belief of, then why spend so much time here.  Let the ones that want to discuss something do so without your vitriol.

I am not patronising anyone; there are things we don't know. Some people can deal with this and others cannot. There is no vitriol, simply a statement of fact...insisting you 'know' is adolescent; do you know how the first life forms came into existence?
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2008, 09:55:39 AM »
I highlighted in your comment above what I believe to be your weak points. 
What was the first life form?  Where did the organic compounds come from?  Or lightning?  How about crystallizing structures? 

What I mean to say is you can't really answer those questions.  You just believe they existed with no explanation and then let your arguement stop there.  If Darwinist want to believe man eventually came from the "organic compounds" you mentioned above, then fine.  But I feel they are leaving out a BIG part of their case.  Somehow those "compunds" and "crystals" came into existence. 

Every mathematician in the world will tell you that you can't get something from nothing

First life form was extremely basic. Knowing what it was is an irrelevant. I don't know what colour a T-Rex was, but it definitely did exist.

The building blocks for life existed since the big bang and created in the super nova process ever since. The laws of the universe and nature of crystallizing structures have existed since the big bang or earlier. Dissolve some salt in water, allow it to evaporate slowly and watch the crystals form. That is an inherit process of sodium chloride, no thought goes into the process, it's just due to the chemical properties of that compound and how its atoms behave.

Never said something came from nothing. That's hardly evidence for God (where did GOD come from? Mathematicians will tell you that you can't get something from nothing :D).

Every atom you see around you was probably the result of a huge super nova which imploded on itself causing massive fusion which creates the element you see on Earth. Hydrogen is the original ancestor to all the elements you see on Earth today.
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mightymouse72

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2008, 12:40:26 PM »
First life form was extremely basic. Knowing what it was is an irrelevant. I don't know what colour a T-Rex was, but it definitely did exist.

The building blocks for life existed since the big bang and created in the super nova process ever since. The laws of the universe and nature of crystallizing structures have existed since the big bang or earlier. Dissolve some salt in water, allow it to evaporate slowly and watch the crystals form. That is an inherit process of sodium chloride, no thought goes into the process, it's just due to the chemical properties of that compound and how its atoms behave.

Never said something came from nothing. That's hardly evidence for God (where did GOD come from? Mathematicians will tell you that you can't get something from nothing :D).

Every atom you see around you was probably the result of a huge super nova which imploded on itself causing massive fusion which creates the element you see on Earth. Hydrogen is the original ancestor to all the elements you see on Earth today.






Where did the super nova come from? 
You can only explain your belief system in how things evolve.  You can't explain how they came to be.  Your above explanations are only speculation.  You don't know any of that to be fact and you can't prove it.  There are some interesting cases that can make the evolution theory seem attractive but when you can't explain how that first life came to be with absolute certainty, your whole entire belief crumbles.

You made the statement about the 'big bang' creating the super nova.  Then you chose to say "never said something came from nothing."     A little contradicting, wouldn't ya think?!   ;)

Look, this is appealing debating this issue but we will never convince each other our beliefs.  It completely overwelms my mind when I think about God, his existence, the things he has made and why he made them.  Humans' finite mind cannot fathom God and his infinite mind.  We are not supposed to yet throughout all of history man has always tried to "figure" God (or life) out.
This arguement is nothing new. 
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mightymouse72

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 12:54:54 PM »

I didn't fail. I was never given the chance to fail. Apparently I'm guilty because of Eve, and she's guilty because she was baited by God.

Man did evolved from a common ancestor with chimpanzees, the genetic evidence alone is enough to state this as fact.


Nordic, your above quote was from the other thread.  I don't want to turn that thread into a hate-fest.
Why would you put animals and humans in the same catagory??  Are humans not more significant than animals??  I would feel absolutely worthless in this life if that's all I was.  A monkey.  What would be the purpose of living if I was no better than that?
I'm very thankful there is something more powerful than me, that loves me and that made me for a purpose.

No wonder our society acts likes animals.


And no, evolution is not a fact.  You haven't proven anything.  Genetic or otherwise.
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2008, 12:57:13 PM »
Where did the super nova come from? 
You can only explain your belief system in how things evolve.  You can't explain how they came to be.  Your above explanations are only speculation.  You don't know any of that to be fact and you can't prove it.  There are some interesting cases that can make the evolution theory seem attractive but when you can't explain how that first life came to be with absolute certainty, your whole entire belief crumbles.

You made the statement about the 'big bang' creating the super nova.  Then you chose to say "never said something came from nothing."     A little contradicting, wouldn't ya think?!   ;)

Look, this is appealing debating this issue but we will never convince each other our beliefs.  It completely overwelms my mind when I think about God, his existence, the things he has made and why he made them.  Humans' finite mind cannot fathom God and his infinite mind.  We are not supposed to yet throughout all of history man has always tried to "figure" God (or life) out.
This arguement is nothing new. 

A super nova occurs when a star has burnt up it's fuel source (Hydrogen). The process is fusions which results in heavier atoms being created through the fusion process. Because these atoms are denser the star shrinks (due to the force of gravity which is the controlling force throughout). It shrinks under its own immense density until it becomes so dense it implodes and in another final set of fusion reactions the star explodes and dies. The fusion process creates all the atoms you see around you and are scatter into space as a huge space dust cloud. Due to gravity again the dust clumps together, creating planets like the Earth. Given the right cocktail of elements and distance from the new sun also created by the process, the planet might potential harbour life, as the Earth does.

The big bang didn't create a super nova. The big bang probably created a huge amount of matter spaced across the universe. Gravity powered this matter to attract to each other in clumps forming stars, which then went on to explode and die (super nova).

I'm dealing with post-big bang. Of course I do not know what came before that.

The properties of crystallizing compounds is fact, I gave you an experiment where you can see it for your own eyes. I don't know that exact information regarding the initial life point. I do feel however that my explanations are more logical than God making man from dust and creating woman from a rib of man, these 2 people breeding and their offspring having incestuous relationships to create the world population.

Do you believe in the conservation of energy? I.e. you get out what you put in etc.

If so, how can God have infinite intelligence, surely that would require infinite energy?

We're not supposed to figure things out? Scientific exploration should never have happened? Would you like to censor scientific exploration? Why do you use a computer if it never should have been?
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Deicide

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2008, 12:58:27 PM »





Where did the super nova come from? 
You can only explain your belief system in how things evolve.  You can't explain how they came to be.  Your above explanations are only speculation.  You don't know any of that to be fact and you can't prove it.  There are some interesting cases that can make the evolution theory seem attractive but when you can't explain how that first life came to be with absolute certainty, your whole entire belief crumbles.

You made the statement about the 'big bang' creating the super nova.  Then you chose to say "never said something came from nothing."     A little contradicting, wouldn't ya think?!   ;)

Look, this is appealing debating this issue but we will never convince each other our beliefs.  It completely overwelms my mind when I think about God THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER, his existence, the things he has made and why he made them.  Humans' finite mind cannot fathom God THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER'S and his infinite mind.  We are not supposed to yet throughout all of history man has always tried to "figure" God THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER(or life) out.
This arguement is nothing new. 

FIXED.
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2008, 01:00:48 PM »
Nordic, your above quote was from the other thread.  I don't want to turn that thread into a hate-fest.
Why would you put animals and humans in the same catagory??  Are humans not more significant than animals??  I would feel absolutely worthless in this life if that's all I was.  A monkey.  What would be the purpose of living if I was no better than that?
I'm very thankful there is something more powerful than me, that loves me and that made me for a purpose.

No wonder our society acts likes animals.

And no, evolution is not a fact.  You haven't proven anything.  Genetic or otherwise.

Humans are animals, but exceptional animals. I don't subscribe to Deicide's belief that it would be better without us. We have the ability to appreciate etc. which animals do not. I would rather the Earth cease to exist than humans to be removed.

Humans are more significant, but like I said, we're animals, albeit EXCEPTIONAL ones with the ability of reason.

I could give you examples of societies acting like animals due to islamic law, which also prescribes monotheistic belief in an all powerful creator.
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Deicide

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2008, 01:01:12 PM »

Nordic, your above quote was from the other thread.  I don't want to turn that thread into a hate-fest.
Why would you put animals and humans in the same catagory??  Are humans not more significant than animals??  I would feel absolutely worthless in this life if that's all I was.  A monkey.  What would be the purpose of living if I was no better than that?
I'm very thankful there is something more powerful than me, that loves me and that made me for a purpose.

No wonder our society acts likes animals.


And no, evolution is not a fact.  You haven't proven anything.  Genetic or otherwise.


Just because something makes you feel good, doesn't make it true by a long shot. Religious people just don't get that and thank for explaining why you believe what you believe. The universe is not here for you.
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Deicide

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 01:03:43 PM »
Humans are animals, but exceptional animals. I don't subscribe to Deicide's belief that it would be better without us. We have the ability to appreciate etc. which animals do not. I would rather the Earth cease to exist than humans to be removed.

Humans are more significant, but like I said, we're animals, albeit EXCEPTIONAL ones with the ability of reason.

I could give you examples of societies acting like animals due to islamic law, which also prescribes monotheistic belief in an all powerful creator.

Uhmm..Nordic, you are putting words in my mouth; I never said it would be better without us; at best I have said it makes no difference whether we are here or not.
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2008, 01:08:01 PM »
Uhmm..Nordic, you are putting words in my mouth; I never said it would be better without us; at best I have said it makes no difference whether we are here or not.

Just assuming after seeing your agree with this:

I agree.  Can't wait till we are all gone so the planet can once again restore itself to greatness. 

But yes, it doesn't make one inch of difference, you're right.

The unconscious universe could however result in an asteroid which could destroy Earth, but the conscious reasoning abilities of homo sapiens could develop technology to stop that happening 8)
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mightymouse72

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2008, 01:11:35 PM »
Just because something makes you feel good, doesn't make it true by a long shot. Religious people just don't get that and thank for explaining why you believe what you believe. The universe is not here for you.

And just because you hate something doesn't make it untrue.  Now, shhhhh, adults are speaking. 

Don't you have puppy to kick or a child's bicycle to steal.   :o
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Deicide

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2008, 01:16:28 PM »
And just because you hate something doesn't make it untrue.  Now, shhhhh, adults are speaking. 

Don't you have puppy to kick or a child's bicycle to steal.   :o

Adults don't believe in fairy tales so you must not be talking about yourself.
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wavelength

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2008, 01:17:02 PM »
Now, shhhhh, adults are speaking.

I don't know why, but the imagination of Deicide reading that kind of makes me giggle.  ;D

dantelis

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Re: Evolution is Fact
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2008, 01:25:49 PM »
prove it- that's how i handle it.  I have a book from the God who says he created us.  But i guess that's not good enough for some people.


Really?  Where'd you get it?  The Bible has been changed over time, especially when it has been translated and re-translated.  It was written, and the various books of the Bible pulled together, by man.  Whether it was divinely inspired is questionable and not proven.

By the way, the Muslims also have a book from the God who says he created them and the Jews from their God?  Is that the same God?  If so, how come the books are so inconsistent and contradictory?

Evolution happens all the time and is right in front of our faces.  Viruses and bacteria change and mutate quickly to deal with their environment.  Why do you think we have so many bacteria that are now resistant to antibiotics?  The ones that could resist the antibiotics survived and produced new offspring that were hardier than the rest, while the others died out.  

Evolution explains how life changes and how man came to be.  Debating evolution and the Bible isn't the same thing as debating the origin of life vs. creationism.  There is no consensus among scientists about how life began.  They are pretty much in agreement, however, about the reality of evolution.