post workout nutrtion and what i saw in videos

[aliamini]

If you know how GH is produced in the body you would have understood the study … the amount you your protein intake effect the production of GH in your body and certain amino acids lead to increase of GH production thus IGF-1 … however I never said wait 2 hours after a workout … if you are a body builder or an athlete for that matter … you should stick to a 3 hour meal interval regimen and usually when you finish your workout the time has come to have your next meal …

As per the study: (CHO; 1.5 g/kg body wt), protein (PRO; 1.38 g/kg body wt)
meaning for a 200klbs they took (135g CHO and 124g PRO)

And about the study the same can be said if you take a sold meal (instead of a supplement) … although you have to keep in mind that insulin and GH work back to back … meaning if one is low the other is hi … so as soon as insulin is released the GH production is reduced

You will get cortisol in your system only if your food intake is less than what you require … which is hard to do or shouldnt be done by an athlete (specially if you eat every 3 hours)

And I never said that a post workout shake/meal is not beneficial … what I am saying is that it is overrated (something that has been done to the community by the supp. companies and the mags) …

If a person cant eat post workout than he is better of with the shake but this has nothing to do with facts and how the body works ...

I am not here to argue with tbombz or Fatpanda … this is what I have to say and I guess I always try to deliver facts that make sense in a simple way … and a lot appreciate it on the board

About milk … here’s a reply I posted on another board:



Whey protein is cheap considering the amount of protein you get and cause the price of whey has gone up nearly 100% in the past couple of years … so has everything else I still think it is a very good choice … but you do the calculation according to the prices in your country …

We all know we get best source of protein powders from milk (whey and it various filtration versions) however milk is only milk has less than 40% of the milk is actually protein and only 20% of that protein is whey … so only 7.5% of the total skim milk’s caloric intake is whey.  Meaning only 2.25g of whey protein in a liter of skimmed milk

The carbohydrate of milk is called lactose and some people cant tolerate it and have allergy against it ... and the body doesn’t have the proper enzymes to make full use of it (converting all of it to glucose and making it available as energy source)

If I remember right … 1 liter of milk has 50g carb, 30g protein, vitamine A, D, calcium, and some more phosphate and B vitamins (can’t remember which ones)

And don’t misunderstand the breast milk or the baby milk that they feed infants (or at least that is what they call it)

Mothers’ milk is a complete whole food for newly born babies only and the baby milk is a fortified powder that was designed to be a whole food for infants … so don’t get it mixed up

[closeline]

ive seen a lot of bodybuiulding videos and i noticedd the pros like to have a shake after-but i hear so many people talk about eatinbg the whole foods posst workout-like they will carry chciken rice to the gym in cooler and eat that-i dunno about that cuz 1) i feel not hungry after lifting heavy and 2)isnt you susposed to take advantage of the window of opportinuty post workout-so like if i eat a big meal of say steaka nd potatoes ill take so long to digesta nd it will be worthless??? but there have been times wher ei will take aminos psot and then go eat ssuhi-i felt good after and i felt good the days after all recovered and stuff-what do yall think?

thank you...

did anyone realise, that the camera doesen t follow the guys to the gym toillets, where the shoot their insulin and drink their sugar-shakes

[Fatpanda]

If you know how GH is produced in the body you would have understood the study … the amount you your protein intake effect the production of GH in your body and certain amino acids lead to increase of GH production thus IGF-1 … however I never said wait 2 hours after a workout … if you are a body builder or an athlete for that matter … you should stick to a 3 hour meal interval regimen and usually when you finish your workout the time has come to have your next meal …

As per the study: (CHO; 1.5 g/kg body wt), protein (PRO; 1.38 g/kg body wt)
meaning for a 200klbs they took (135g CHO and 124g PRO)

And about the study the same can be said if you take a sold meal (instead of a supplement) … although you have to keep in mind that insulin and GH work back to back … meaning if one is low the other is hi … so as soon as insulin is released the GH production is reduced

You will get cortisol in your system only if your food intake is less than what you require … which is hard to do or shouldnt be done by an athlete (specially if you eat every 3 hours)

And I never said that a post workout shake/meal is not beneficial … what I am saying is that it is overrated (something that has been done to the community by the supp. companies and the mags) …

If a person cant eat post workout than he is better of with the shake but this has nothing to do with facts and how the body works ...

I am not here to argue with tbombz or Fatpanda … this is what I have to say and I guess I always try to deliver facts that make sense in a simple way … and a lot appreciate it on the board

About milk … here’s a reply I posted on another board:



Whey protein is cheap considering the amount of protein you get and cause the price of whey has gone up nearly 100% in the past couple of years … so has everything else I still think it is a very good choice … but you do the calculation according to the prices in your country …

We all know we get best source of protein powders from milk (whey and it various filtration versions) however milk is only milk has less than 40% of the milk is actually protein and only 20% of that protein is whey … so only 7.5% of the total skim milk’s caloric intake is whey.  Meaning only 2.25g of whey protein in a liter of skimmed milk

The carbohydrate of milk is called lactose and some people cant tolerate it and have allergy against it ... and the body doesn’t have the proper enzymes to make full use of it (converting all of it to glucose and making it available as energy source)

If I remember right … 1 liter of milk has 50g carb, 30g protein, vitamine A, D, calcium, and some more phosphate and B vitamins (can’t remember which ones)

And don’t misunderstand the breast milk or the baby milk that they feed infants (or at least that is what they call it)

Mothers’ milk is a complete whole food for newly born babies only and the baby milk is a fortified powder that was designed to be a whole food for infants … so don’t get it mixed up

i really do not understand the point you are trying to make here 

i understand completely how the body produces GH, how it interacts with insulin - and that study 

you disareed that a post workout shake is any more benificial than a normal meal 2 or 3 hours after a workout. Although you admitted that a shake can and will be absorbed quicker than a solid meal. in fact you commented that there was no need for proten immediately post workout due to it not being absorbed immediately. I posted a study that showed that a post w/o shake with protein increases gh release - despite the increased insulin release. That was not noted with the intake of carbs alone.

I really cannot fathom that you feel there is no cortisol release in the body following a workout as long as you eat every 3 hours  - perhaps if you are juiced to the gills - is this what you mean? or does this advice apply to naturals too ?

Studies show that cortisol increases after around 40 mins in a workout and keeps increasing untill insulin stops it - waiting 2 or 3 hours for a meal solid or not will delay insulin's potent anticatabolic effects, reduce recovery, reduce immune function, increase inflamation, etc etc - this is very poor advice for bodybuilders.

also a solid meal post workout would take longer for insulin to be produced in the body - again allowing cortisol to rise longer than it should for optimal results.

A pre workout shake - would help however 

[tbombz]

First you dropped the shake and no difference, then you re-added it and it made a difference? Sounds strange.
And how exactly did you determine the improved changes in body composition?

no i said when i initially dropped the post workout shake i didnt NOTICE any difference. i idnt say there was no difference. when i added it back in i noticed that not having indeed did make a difference. mainly the difference was slower rate of growth and recovery and strength gains. all of those things picked up the pace when i added it back in, and i realized that they had all slowed down a bit when i had taken the shake out.

[aliamini]

when did I say a meal 3 hour after workout is more beneficial that an immediate shake???

If you do a 3 hour interval meal plan … you will of course eat 2 hours before a training and train for like an hour … but then it is time for your next meal (and if your not that your whole plan is wrong) … what I said is u don’t have to have a shake to get the max gains … cortisol is released when blood sugar gets low … so in a fortified diet plan that should happen … specially if u are trying to gain size … the study you posted doesn’t back up anything as you still are comparing hi and low protein and it doesn’t have to do anything with post workout … where I say a decent meal post work out which means a meal with sufficient amount of protein and carbs … and you have to very selective in that to get the optimal result … and over 100g protein a meal is way too much as you r study dictates …

And if you read the study right … it says “immediately and 2 h after a standardized weight-training workout” meaning both group were given supplements at the same timing (post and after 2 hours) the study was to prove that higher protein was better for recovery … which is not our case here …

What I said applies for both natural and juiced … unless ur on insulin … where again you have to align your plan with your objectives and type of insulin used

You think that you have to release a certain amount of insulin to stop certain amount of cortisol … no … this is not the way it is done … when u eat a meal insulin starts to get released thus stopping cortisol (the amount doesn’t matter) and again as I said cortisol is released (in this particular case) only when blood sugar is low … and I mean very low … which shouldn’t occur if your plan is right … however it will occur if you don’t eat every 3 hour for an athletes … and as I said a meal should be eaten after a workout … but the whole 3 hour windo or immediate post workout shake is overrated …

Fatpanda … I am still doubting you level of seriousness in this subject as I don’t know if you are reading my stuff and understanding or trying intentionally to reply and put words in my mouth that I didn’t say … as your last reply was all drifted from what I said in my last 3 or 4 replies

[tbombz]

dude aliamini... ugh... stop it..   

[The ChemistV2]

I've been drinking a shake, right after training, which consists of 100% Hydrolyzed Whey Isolate, which is the fasted, most predigested form of Whey around. The problem in the past with Whey Hydrolosates is that they are bitter and have a disgusting taste, which is why if you see them included in a formula, they usually only comprise a small percentage of the mix. I found this product on the net called Proto Whey and they have a unique process of flavoring the product so that it actually tastes great, and it's 100% Hydrolyzed. Definitely seeing a bit of progress in terms of maintaining more size as I'm leaning out on my diet.

[Fatpanda]

when did I say a meal 3 hour after workout is more beneficial that an immediate shake???

If you do a 3 hour interval meal plan … you will of course eat 2 hours before a training and train for like an hour … but then it is time for your next meal (and if your not that your whole plan is wrong) … what I said is u don’t have to have a shake to get the max gains … cortisol is released when blood sugar gets low … so in a fortified diet plan that should happen … specially if u are trying to gain size … the study you posted doesn’t back up anything as you still are comparing hi and low protein and it doesn’t have to do anything with post workout … where I say a decent meal post work out which means a meal with sufficient amount of protein and carbs … and you have to very selective in that to get the optimal result … and over 100g protein a meal is way too much as you r study dictates …

And if you read the study right … it says “immediately and 2 h after a standardized weight-training workout” meaning both group were given supplements at the same timing (post and after 2 hours) the study was to prove that higher protein was better for recovery … which is not our case here …

What I said applies for both natural and juiced … unless ur on insulin … where again you have to align your plan with your objectives and type of insulin used

You think that you have to release a certain amount of insulin to stop certain amount of cortisol … no … this is not the way it is done … when u eat a meal insulin starts to get released thus stopping cortisol (the amount doesn’t matter) and again as I said cortisol is released (in this particular case) only when blood sugar is low … and I mean very low … which shouldn’t occur if your plan is right … however it will occur if you don’t eat every 3 hour for an athletes … and as I said a meal should be eaten after a workout … but the whole 3 hour windo or immediate post workout shake is overrated …

Fatpanda … I am still doubting you level of seriousness in this subject as I don’t know if you are reading my stuff and understanding or trying intentionally to reply and put words in my mouth that I didn’t say … as your last reply was all drifted from what I said in my last 3 or 4 replies

I am serious - i have no clue what you are talking about. I think we are having a communication problem.

you first said the whole 3 hour post workout /anabolic window is a myth - i disagreed - then you also said its the best time to put nutrients onto the muscle due to the increased blood flow- so which is it ?

I realise you know some things or you wouldn't be a prep guru, however some of the things you say are so behind current research that it amazes me.

your insistance that cortisol will not be released as long as you eat every 3 hours is astounding 

even if there is circulating blood sugar - the muscle will absorb it as an rapid rate during and after excercise and clear it - hence allowing cortisol to increase - and keep on increasing untill insulin is produced.

your complete lack or acknowledgement on the benefits of a post workout shake is also astounding 

there have been loads of sudies done on this - are you telling me you disagree with them all 

[wavelength]

no i said when i initially dropped the post workout shake i didnt NOTICE any difference. i idnt say there was no difference. when i added it back in i noticed that not having indeed did make a difference. mainly the difference was slower rate of growth and recovery and strength gains. all of those things picked up the pace when i added it back in, and i realized that they had all slowed down a bit when i had taken the shake out.

I don't understand, what's the difference between not noticing any change and no actual change? If there is such a difference, your method of determination if something works or not for you is completely arbitrary IMO. My method is as objective as possible: I watch the change in body composition with and without a certain method. My experience is: there is no significant difference between having a shake or not, and there is also no significant difference whether you have a post workout meal or not. Wait a few years and science will come up with a theory that matches my experience.

[Fatpanda]

I don't understand, what's the difference between not noticing any difference and no actual difference? If there is such a difference, your method of determination if something works or not for you is completely arbitrary IMO. My method is as objective as possible: I watch the change in body composition with and without a certain method. My experience is: there is no significant difference between having a shake or not, and there is also no significant difference whether you have a post workout meal or not. Wait a few years and science will come up with a theory that matches my experience.

wave - the studies all disagree with you.

[wavelength]

wave - the studies all disagree with you.

Current studies, maybe.
But is there one serious study on the purpose of bodybuilding, namely body composition change?
And what exactly is your method of determination if post workout shakes/meals are necessary for you? Do you only rely on the studies?

[Fatpanda]

Current studies, maybe.
But is there one serious study on the purpose of bodybuilding, namely body composition change?
And what exactly is your method of determination if post workout shakes/meals are necessary for you? Do you only rely on the studies?

yes - the studies show that pre or post w/o meals decrease muscle breakdown, decrease in cortisol, increases in protein synthesis and GH responce - all leading to a more favourable muscle mass amount.

[Bobby]

let's look at it like this
having a C+P shake = recovering quickly
having a meal = recovering slower and takes some time before you have fully recovered.

so if someone gave you 1 million $...

would you want to have all of it now? or would you want to wait and get it piece by piece over a longer period of time?

[wavelength]

yes - the studies show that pre or post w/o meals decrease muscle breakdown, decrease in cortisol, increases in protein synthesis and GH responce - all leading to a more favourable muscle mass amount.

Is there a study that directly measured the change in body composition? Because that's the only thing important to a bodybuilder. This would mean that the study would show an actual difference in body composition when on the exact same amount of macros over a day, and the only difference between subjects is that certain macros are consumed in a certain time intervall after training or not. Please show me a reference to such a study.

[wavelength]

let's look at it like this
having a C+P shake = recovering quickly
having a meal = recovering slower and takes some time before you have fully recovered.

so if someone gave you 1 million $...

would you want to have all of it now? or would you want to wait and get it piece by piece over a longer period of time?

I would rather do what's convenient if it doesn't make a significant difference.

[aliamini]

During the training shake is whole different thing … you have to understand that the type and amount of protein in that shake is totally different (so you dont use whey protein in that) … so u can have a during training shake and then a solid meal … that is what I recommend but if u don’t get a solid meal post workout a shake would be another option

Again back to the studies … you read that in magazines … and as I said the purpose of advertising is to sell more

I fully acknowledge the benefits of a post work out nutrients … so I never said that don’t eat post workout … I am saying it is not essential to have a SHAKE … a decent balanced meal will do the trick (it has to be a proper meal … again don’t get it wrong) … post work out yes … but 3 hour window NO … some think that during these 3 hours anything that u eat will go in your muscle and you have to eat big big big BIG BIG BIG meals to replenish your muscles … which is totally a myth …

my thought on cortisol/insulin are still the same … as all of this was market via magazines and when a study is done on a regular person … it’s a person who eats 3 meals + maybe a post workout shake ... so it doesn’t apply on bodybuilder … or at least those who do it right

I am not disagreeing with researches ... but I am saying you got to understand the researches well and know the source … and whom were the people that the test was carried on … magazines will post only what they want you to buy … so do the supplements …

If you have the time … do a research on how “hi fructose corn syrup” got so popular and it’s relation with diabetes and insulin manufacturers … that is an interesting story … to know how the nutrition/diet market is working parallel with governments and some hi profile people/organizations

[Fatpanda]

Is there a study that directly measured the change in body composition? Because that's the only thing important to a bodybuilder. This would mean that the study would show an actual difference in body composition when on the exact same amount of macros over a day, and the only difference between subjects is that certain macros are consumed in a certain time intervall after training or not. Please show me a reference to such a study.

i have read a study like this - i'll try to find it among my collection - and post it for you.

[Fatpanda]

During the training shake is whole different thing … you have to understand that the type and amount of protein in that shake is totally different (so you don't use whey protein in that) … so u can have a during training shake and then a solid meal … that is what I recommend but if u don't get a solid meal post workout a shake would be another option

Again back to the studies … you read that in magazines … and as I said the purpose of advertising is to sell more

I fully acknowledge the benefits of a post work out nutrients … so I never said that don't eat post workout … I am saying it is not essential to have a SHAKE … a decent balanced meal will do the trick (it has to be a proper meal … again don't get it wrong) … post work out yes … but 3 hour window NO … some think that during these 3 hours anything that u eat will go in your muscle and you have to eat big big big BIG BIG BIG meals to replenish your muscles … which is totally a myth …

my thought on cortisol/insulin are still the same … as all of this was market via magazines and when a study is done on a regular person … it's a person who eats 3 meals + maybe a post workout shake ... so it doesn't apply on bodybuilder … or at least those who do it right

I am not disagreeing with researches ... but I am saying you got to understand the researches well and know the source … and whom were the people that the test was carried on … magazines will post only what they want you to buy … so do the supplements …

If you have the time … do a research on how “hi fructose corn syrup” got so popular and it’s relation with diabetes and insulin manufacturers … that is an interesting story … to know how the nutrition/diet market is working parallel with governments and some hi profile people/organizations

aliamini - you said the post workout window was a myth, now you are saying it is not - I'm glad you realise myself and candy were right 

your thoughts on insulin/cortisol may be the same but it is still wrong - can you show me a study that proves your argument that cortisol is non existant when eating meals every 3 hours - and it's all just magazine hype and myths to sell supplements. It sounds like you are getting into xfiles territory here 

cortisol's responce to exercise is well studied and widely excepted, as is insulin's effects on it 

i can assure you i have not read these studies in magazines  i have them in pdf format on my hard drive - hundreds of them. I have read - and re read them many times. I can also assure you that i am not easily impressed by hype or marketing for any product or recommendation. If it does not produce significant effects i disregard it - proper pre/post workout supplementation does. Oh and for the record i do not have a super shake pre/post workout. i have milk or choc milk - nice easy cheap and effective.

as for hi fructose corn syrup  - it has nothing to do with our discussion here - i see no need to research it - i am aware of the damage it does.

it seems to me that understandably your opinion is significantly skewed by your work with steroid users. While mine is skewed toward a natural view.

[aliamini]

aliamini - you said the post workout window was a myth, now you are saying it is not - I'm glad you realise myself and candy were right 

your thoughts on insulin/cortisol may be the same but it is still wrong - can you show me a study that proves your argument that cortisol is non existant when eating meals every 3 hours - and it's all just magazine hype and myths to sell supplements. It sounds like you are getting into xfiles territory here 

cortisol's responce to exercise is well studied and widely excepted, as is insulin's effects on it 

i can assure you i have not read these studies in magazines  i have them in pdf format on my hard drive - hundreds of them. I have read - and re read them many times. I can also assure you that i am not easily impressed by hype or marketing for any product or recommendation. If it does not produce significant effects i disregard it - proper pre/post workout supplementation does. Oh and for the record i do not have a super shake pre/post workout. i have milk or choc milk - nice easy cheap and effective.

as for hi fructose corn syrup  - it has nothing to do with our discussion here - i see no need to research it - i am aware of the damage it does.

it seems to me that understandably your opinion is significantly skewed by your work with steroid users. While mine is skewed toward a natural view.

When did I say the 3 hours is not a myth … I am still saying the 3 hours window is not crucial … ur mixing the whole concept and trying to change fact to put make me look wrog … well keep it up … cause I aint got time for this … and I am sure you gained a lot form this thread (if ur smart)

However I get back to my old statement … I am trying to reason and you are trying to put words in my mouth … with the 3 hour post work out meal and with the 3 hour window now … I really don’t have time to argue on that … if u r happy with your pdf researches than good for your … stick to what you do best …

And the HFCS research would have shown you how researches are done and for what reason ... so it was relevant

[Fatpanda]

Is there a study that directly measured the change in body composition? Because that's the only thing important to a bodybuilder. This would mean that the study would show an actual difference in body composition when on the exact same amount of macros over a day, and the only difference between subjects is that certain macros are consumed in a certain time intervall after training or not. Please show me a reference to such a study.

Wave read this:

http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/conference_presentations/ISSNConference_200606_Cribb.pdf

Read about all 3 trials - however trial 3 proves without question that pre/post workout nutrition increases muscle mass, strength, and reduces fat.

Aliamini should read it too it seems 

[Fatpanda]

When did I say the 3 hours is not a myth … I am still saying the 3 hours window is not crucial … ur mixing the whole concept and trying to change fact to put make me look wrog … well keep it up … cause I aint got time for this … and I am sure you gained a lot form this thread (if ur smart)

However I get back to my old statement … I am trying to reason and you are trying to put words in my mouth … with the 3 hour post work out meal and with the 3 hour window now … I really don’t have time to argue on that … if u r happy with your pdf researches than good for your … stick to what you do best …

And the HFCS research would have shown you how researches are done and for what reason ... so it was relevant

ali - i am not trying to put words into your mouth. I am however struggling to understand your points - perhaps that is where the problem lies.

i think pre/post workout supplementation is very important for optimal muscle mass and performance.

i think the countless studies that have been done on it shows this - if you research yourself and type tipton and protein into google or pubmed and read you will agree with me.

i think that solid food pre or post will also work - although not optimally.

i think you are wrong regarding many things - none more so that the no cortisol theory  however i may be misreading or misunderstanding your points  nice avoidance of proving it by the way 

Hope this helps 

[aliamini]

I am not avoiding anything … you are mesmerized by the internet researches and think everything is on the net … and they are all correct 100% only cause they are on the net … a lot of the researches have been proven to be wrong so I don’t think I can change anything in this matter … I posted my theories … where I have access to research labs that can do specific studies for me where it is applicable to body builders … it is mainly for well being and maintaining youth … but hey that is the trick to it … any way I don’t have time for all of this … remind me again of this subject in mid or late November and I will be more than happy to share discuss it again …

And if you are a MAX-OT, Skip La Cour or AST fan that I cant change your mind … you think that everyone is wrong and only you are write … that is the way MAX OT was marketed … and I saw the DVD and was really nonsense … specially the nutrition part … these thing are ok if you want to look good … but not get serious in bodybuilding … maybe that has been our misunderstanding … i was talking about really bodybuilding and you were talking about looking good … regardless using drugs or not …

I cant read what you posted as I said I don’t have enough time … however I will go through it if I ge the time in November

[Fatpanda]

I am not avoiding anything … you are mesmerized by the internet researches and think everything is on the net … and they are all correct 100% only cause they are on the net … a lot of the researches have been proven to be wrong so I don’t think I can change anything in this matter … I posted my theories … where I have access to research labs that can do specific studies for me where it is applicable to body builders … it is mainly for well being and maintaining youth … but hey that is the trick to it … any way I don’t have time for all of this … remind me again of this subject in mid or late November and I will be more than happy to share discuss it again …

And if you are a MAX-OT, Skip La Cour or AST fan that I cant change your mind … you think that everyone is wrong and only you are write … that is the way MAX OT was marketed … and I saw the DVD and was really nonsense … specially the nutrition part … these thing are ok if you want to look good … but not get serious in bodybuilding … maybe that has been our misunderstanding … i was talking about really bodybuilding and you were talking about looking good … regardless using drugs or not …

I cant read what you posted as I said I don’t have enough time … however I will go through it if I ge the time in November

hahahahaha

I am not a max-ot /skip lacour or ast fan    i do not own the dvd either. However i do agree with heavy weights with low reps - as that is backed by science as being the most efficient means of building muscle mass.

is that all you have got to discredit my opinion, comments and posted studies 

if you want to change my mind - try posting a study that backs up your incredible claims. Not comments on conspiracies of the evil supplement companies 

it should be easy for you, if as you say you run your own studies 

see you in november 

[wavelength]

Wave read this:

http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/conference_presentations/ISSNConference_200606_Cribb.pdf

Read about all 3 trials - however trial 3 proves without question that pre/post workout nutrition increases muscle mass, strength, and reduces fat.

Aliamini should read it too it seems 

OK, I read the study. It suggests that after 10 weeks of training,

- Group 1 ("correct" timing) was able to gain 2.7kg of muscle mass while losing 0.2kg of fat,
- Group 2 ("incorrect" timing) was able to gain 1.5kg of muscle mass while gaining 0.2kg of fat.

The subjects in both groups seem to be genetic freaks of epic proportion. Maybe I'm a hard-gainer, but I have never in my life been able to gain 2.7kg of muscle mass within 10 weeks while losing fat. But maybe I misunderstood something.

[aliamini]

I am not discrediting your comments … I am just telling you think … if you don’t want to change your opinion that you never will

These are not conspiracies … this is the way big companies are run … u still have to keep in mind experience and what you actually see works compare to the researches and how other things might work even better than the research or for a certain goal … you don’t have to follow studies religiously …


But hey ... who am I to change your mind … I am just posting for other to benefit … while replying to you