Mormons taking over California?

[Dos Equis]

Yes I do actually... I also think that many people vote against it because of other reasons... I know a friend who voted against it because he said, "I don't care, but if it's legal HERE, then everyone will come HERE to do it, and he didn't want THAT for some reason."

I agree people vote against it for a variety of reasons.  That's why I disagree with the contention that Christian conservatives are essentially the only ones opposing homosexual marriage.  The opposition is pretty broad based.  

We have done some pretty unorthodox things with this whole sexual orientation thing.  We have laws on our books here that define "gender identity" to mean whatever you want it to mean, on whatever day you want.  

[timfogarty]

Arent many laws regarding marriage built around the idea of family and the benefits of marriage in a society based on the family unit?

yes, and gay families qualify.  two people taking care of each other, with or without children.

there are hundreds of thousands of gay families with children in California.  Prop 8 won't change that.   these families deserve the same protection that straight families have.

[timfogarty]

We are talking about abnormal behavior. 

welcome to the 1980s

[tu_holmes]

welcome to the 1980s

[Dos Equis]

welcome to the 1980s

Thanks.  You should read our "gender identity" law in Hawaii. 

[Dan-O]

Ugghh...  this whole issue obviously is so much more than a political one and I don't even want to open up that whole can of worms in this forum.

I'll just try to make a few succinct observations:

• I DON'T believe "being" gay is a lifestyle choice.
• I DO believe living a gay lifestyle is a lifestyle choice.
• Personally--and I know this is going to piss a lot of people off--I see homosexuality as a personality/behavioral disorder like alcoholism or drug addiction or pedophilia.  Maybe (probably) you're born with a genetic predisposition to be "that way."
• Ultimately, as with everything, it's your choice about how to act on that tendency.  At least in the US.  Of course in countries like Iran, there aren't any gay people. Of course how you choose to live your lifestyle depends on your values, beliefs and morals.

In all honesty--I thank God that I wasn't born that way.  I don't know WHO in their right mind would CHOOSE that kind of a life.  But just imagine if you were born that way--sexuality obviously runs so much deeper than a substance addiction or some other behavior, it goes down to the core of a person's being--I tell ya I feel for gay people in our society, I really do.  Especially those who want and try to live devout, faithful spiritual lives and try to reconcile who they are with what they believe and read in the Bible.  It's complicated and like I said...  I feel for them...  being gay ain't no picnic.

OK...  fire away...  tell me I'm backward/bigoted/hateful or whatever.

[tu_holmes]

Thanks.  You should read our "gender identity" law in Hawaii. 

Bet you hate that one don't you?

[tu_holmes]

Ugghh...  this whole issue obviously is so much more than a political one and I don't even want to open up that whole can of worms in this forum.

I'll just try to make a few succinct observations:

• I DON'T believe "being" gay is a lifestyle choice.
• I DO believe living a gay lifestyle is a lifestyle choice.
• Personally--and I know this is going to piss a lot of people off--I see homosexuality as a personality/behavioral disorder like alcoholism or drug addiction or pedophilia.  Maybe (probably) you're born with a genetic predisposition to be "that way."
• Ultimately, as with everything, it's your choice about how to act on that tendency.  At least in the US.  Of course in countries like Iran, there aren't any gay people. Of course how you choose to live your lifestyle depends on your values, beliefs and morals.

In all honesty--I thank God that I wasn't born that way.  I don't know WHO in their right mind would CHOOSE that kind of a life.  But just imagine if you were born that way--sexuality obviously runs so much deeper than a substance addiction or some other behavior, it goes down to the core of a person's being--I tell ya I feel for gay people in our society, I really do.  Especially those who want and try to live devout, faithful spiritual lives and try to reconcile who they are with what they believe and read in the Bible.  It's complicated and like I said...  I feel for them...  being gay ain't no picnic.

OK...  fire away...  tell me I'm backward/bigoted/hateful or whatever.

backward/bigoted/hateful... Whatever too!

[OzmO]

Ugghh...  this whole issue obviously is so much more than a political one and I don't even want to open up that whole can of worms in this forum.

I'll just try to make a few succinct observations:

• I DON'T believe "being" gay is a lifestyle choice.
• I DO believe living a gay lifestyle is a lifestyle choice.
• Personally--and I know this is going to piss a lot of people off--I see homosexuality as a personality/behavioral disorder like alcoholism or drug addiction or pedophilia.  Maybe (probably) you're born with a genetic predisposition to be "that way."
• Ultimately, as with everything, it's your choice about how to act on that tendency.  At least in the US.  Of course in countries like Iran, there aren't any gay people. Of course how you choose to live your lifestyle depends on your values, beliefs and morals.

In all honesty--I thank God that I wasn't born that way.  I don't know WHO in their right mind would CHOOSE that kind of a life.  But just imagine if you were born that way--sexuality obviously runs so much deeper than a substance addiction or some other behavior, it goes down to the core of a person's being--I tell ya I feel for gay people in our society, I really do.  Especially those who want and try to live devout, faithful spiritual lives and try to reconcile who they are with what they believe and read in the Bible.  It's complicated and like I said...  I feel for them...  being gay ain't no picnic.

OK...  fire away...  tell me I'm backward/bigoted/hateful or whatever.

I'm not sure what you believe.

So it's a choice, but you are born with a disposition to be gay?   And you'd to have to deal with it if you were born with that disposition?

[Buffgeek]

welcome to the 1980s

Normal behavior is a union between a man and woman. This perpetuates our species. This fairly straight forward.

[Dan-O]

I'm not sure what you believe.

So it's a choice, but you are born with a disposition to be gay?   And you'd to have to deal with it if you were born with that disposition?

Yeah, that about sums it up.  Same as if you're genetically predisposed to being an alcoholic--it's still your choice to drink or not to drink.  Would you think if that were the case, that you would be morally obligated to drink in order to express who you are?  For the record I'm grateful I'm not an alcoholic either and since I don't drink (yet), I don't have to worry about whether or not I'm genetically wired to be an alcoholic.

And also for the record--this is just me talking...  not any official pronouncement of religious doctrine.  But I know enough gay people and have seen the trials they endure...  to be pretty much convinced that being attracted to their same gender is not something they choose.

[timfogarty]

Yeah, that about sums it up.  Same as if you're genetically predisposed to being an alcoholic--it's still your choice to drink or not to drink.  Would you think if that were the case, that you would be morally obligated to drink in order to express who you are? 

ok, I'm predisposed to falling in love with guys, but I shouldn't because it makes you feel icky ?

[Dos Equis]

Bet you hate that one don't you?

No.  I just think it's confusing and unnecessary.  Here it is:

"Gender identity or expression" includes a person's actual or perceived gender, as well as a person's gender identity, gender-related self-image, gender-related appearance, or gender-related expression; regardless of whether that gender identity, gender-related self image, gender-related appearance, or gender-related expression is different from that traditionally associated with the person's sex at birth.

[tu_holmes]

No.  I just think it's confusing and unnecessary.  Here it is:

"Gender identity or expression" includes a person's actual or perceived gender, as well as a person's gender identity, gender-related self-image, gender-related appearance, or gender-related expression; regardless of whether that gender identity, gender-related self image, gender-related appearance, or gender-related expression is different from that traditionally associated with the person's sex at birth.

It's simple... If you're a transsexual, you still have the same rights as everyone else.

It sucks it has to be stated, but in this world, in this country, it most certainly does.

[Dan-O]

ok, I'm predisposed to falling in love with guys, but I shouldn't because it makes you feel icky ?

Oh please, Tim...  it's not about me...  do you really care about how your actions make me feel??  It's your life, your choice...  do whatever you want!

What it is about--you can either accept the Bible as God's word...  you can believe in moral right and wrong and live according to your beliefs...  or you can reject it all as outdated, old-fashioned, mythology, man-made, etc. etc. and live however you see fit.

For the record I don't hold myself up as a paragon of virtue and righteousness.  I'm likely far worse than many on here when it comes to morality and integrity and I'm not exactly an "orthodox" practitioner of my faith.  So I'm just stating my own personal views to contribute to this dialogue and I'm the last guy who's qualified to judge or tell another what they should or shouldn't do.  I really don't want to debate what's right and wrong because I consider how you live your life to be none of my business.

[Dos Equis]

Normal behavior is a union between a man and woman. This perpetuates our species. This fairly straight forward.

Yep.

[Dos Equis]

It's simple... If you're a transsexual, you still have the same rights as everyone else.

It sucks it has to be stated, but in this world, in this country, it most certainly does.

Simple?  Hardly.  Where does that definition mention the word "transsexual"?  It talks about your actual or perceived gender identity.  What the heck is that? 

Gender-related self-image?  Dude.  We are changing the definition of gender by statute.  How twisted is that?  There used to be men and women.  Now there is whatever the heck you think you are on any given day. 

[timfogarty]

I really don't want to debate what's right and wrong because I consider how you live your life to be none of my business.

the point of this thread is that the Mormon Church is trying to take away my right to marry the person that I love, a right granted by the Constitution of the state of California, as interpreted by the California Supreme Court.

What it is about--you can either accept the Bible as God's word...  you can believe in moral right and wrong and live according to your beliefs...  or you can reject it all as outdated, old-fashioned, mythology, man-made, etc. etc. and live however you see fit.

your either-or comparison is invalid.    many Christians don't believe the bible is meant to be interpreted literally, such as that the earth is 6000 years old, or that there was a world-wide flood, that women are subservient to men, or that loving committed relationships between people of the same sex is evil.

my moral right and wrong includes justice for all.

[Dan-O]

the point of this thread is that the Mormon Church is trying to take away my right to marry the person that I love, a right granted by the Constitution of the state of California, as interpreted by the California Supreme Court.

your either-or comparison is invalid.    many Christians don't believe the bible is meant to be interpreted literally, such as that the earth is 6000 years old, or that there was a world-wide flood, that women are subservient to men, or that loving committed relationships between people of the same sex is evil.

my moral right and wrong includes justice for all.

Just the Mormon Church??  Gee, I wonder where the Catholic church stands on the issue...  Why don't we ask the Pope what he thinks?  And the Lutheran church...  And the Seventh-Day Adventists...  etc. etc. etc.  Where do you expect most Judaeo-Christian religions to stand on this issue?  Or most practitioners of those religions, for that matter?  Or most people who still hold fast to traditional conservative values, for that matter?

The Mormon church makes an easy and convenient scapegoat to focus your frustration but they're not the only ones by far behind this referendum.  Although it is certainly their right to stand up for what they believe to be right.

The Bible's stand on homosexuality isn't terribly ambiguous, unlike the story of the Creation, for instance.  BUT...  you can take it or leave it.

Listen...  Just for the sake of argument--IF gays are going to hell, I'll be right there with them because I do plenty of other things wrong that are against the teachings of the Bible and at this particular moment I'm not feeling particularly contrite and repentant.  But...  I'm not excusing or justifying my behavior pretending that it's copacetic with my beliefs.  We all make our own choices and live with the consequences.

Neither the Mormon Church nor any other group that espouses conservative traditional values, needs to apologize for taking a stand on their beliefs.  You can have all of your legal benefits and rights but they're going to fight you on redefining the word "marriage" and all of the legal loopholes that that opens up.

[Hereford]

Ugghh...  this whole issue obviously is so much more than a political one and I don't even want to open up that whole can of worms in this forum.

I'll just try to make a few succinct observations:

• I DON'T believe "being" gay is a lifestyle choice.
• I DO believe living a gay lifestyle is a lifestyle choice.
• Personally--and I know this is going to piss a lot of people off--I see homosexuality as a personality/behavioral disorder like alcoholism or drug addiction or pedophilia.  Maybe (probably) you're born with a genetic predisposition to be "that way."
• Ultimately, as with everything, it's your choice about how to act on that tendency.  At least in the US.  Of course in countries like Iran, there aren't any gay people. Of course how you choose to live your lifestyle depends on your values, beliefs and morals.

In all honesty--I thank God that I wasn't born that way.  I don't know WHO in their right mind would CHOOSE that kind of a life.  But just imagine if you were born that way--sexuality obviously runs so much deeper than a substance addiction or some other behavior, it goes down to the core of a person's being--I tell ya I feel for gay people in our society, I really do.  Especially those who want and try to live devout, faithful spiritual lives and try to reconcile who they are with what they believe and read in the Bible.  It's complicated and like I said...  I feel for them...  being gay ain't no picnic.

OK...  fire away...  tell me I'm backward/bigoted/hateful or whatever.

Good Stuff.

[timfogarty]

The Mormon church makes an easy and convenient scapegoat to focus your frustration but they're not the only ones by far behind this referendum. 

they're the ones that put it on the ballot, they're the ones that pumped $20 million into it, more than anyone else.

and there are many religious organizations campaigning against prop 8

[Straw Man]

they're the ones that put it on the ballot, they're the ones that pumped $20 million into it, more than anyone else.

and there are many religious organizations campaigning against prop 8

you gotta love the irony of the Mormons spending millions of dollar to fund a proposition to define marriage as "one man and one woman"

[Dan-O]

you gotta love the irony of the Mormons spending millions of dollar to fund a proposition to define marriage as "one man and one woman"

Oh snap!!!  It took a whole 3 pages before someone finally made the inevitable polygamy joke.

Welcome to 1890--the last year the Mormons practiced polygamy.

[Hereford]

Warren Jeffs lived in 1890, eh?

[Straw Man]

Oh snap!!!  It took a whole 3 pages before someone finally made the inevitable polygamy joke.

Welcome to 1890--the last year the Mormons practiced polygamy.

who's joking?

it's just another example of a bunch of hypocritical religious kooks