Is there anything original in the Jesus story?

[The Luke]

Bump for The Luke's response on "The Sermon on the Mount" and on "death by crucifixion."

...if you can quote the post of mine in which I claimed these other precursor gods "died by crucifixion" then I'll answer that. I never made any such claim... I claimed there was a long tradition (predating Jesus) of dying-resurrecting solar deity godmen who were crucified.

McWay then decided to misquote me and add in the "death by" part in order to invalidate my claim.

I certainly can't back up dishonest modifications of the claims that I make, and you shouldn't expect me to.


For example, Attis is indeed crucified, but it is his followers who nail/tie him to the tree AFTER he bleeds to death. McWay wants to focus on the "death by" clause (which he added) misguidedly thinking it invalidates the parallels between Jesus and Attis. It doesn't. There's only three hours between there being two dead guys crucified on a tree.


The reason he does this is pretty obvious, he needs some hair to split in order to dismiss the coincidences... it would be much harder to argue that the Jesus story is original if the only original aspect were that Jesus dies ON the cross whereas Attis dies UNDER the cross.




I have managed to dig up the references to the plagiarism of the Sermon on the Mount though, I'll try to find one that is a little easier to read (something less academic).


The Luke

[MCWAY]

...if you can quote the post of mine in which I claimed these other precursor gods "died by crucifixion" then I'll answer that. I never made any such claim... I claimed there was a long tradition (predating Jesus) of dying-resurrecting solar deity godmen who were crucified.

McWay then decided to misquote me and add in the "death by" part in order to invalidate my claim.

I certainly can't back up dishonest modifications of the claims that I make, and you shouldn't expect me to.

The only one being dishonest here is YOU. Since you can't back your ridiculous claims, you cue the waterworks, crying about how people are misquoting you, etc., etc.

It's simple: You made a "challenge"  It's been answered (quite easily); and now, you're scrambling for excuses as to why the facts don't match your claims whatsoever.

To top it all off your alleged long tradition has been repeatedly shown to be faulty. Among that laundry list of figures are those who either don't die or don't get resurrected after their deaths. And, virtually NONE OF THEM die in the manner that Jesus does, which explains why you keep grasping for any "tree" references to claim crucifixion, even though the accounts CLEARLY SPELL OUT how each of these figures die (of the ones that actually do so).

For example, Attis is indeed crucified, but it is his followers who nail/tie him to the tree AFTER he bleeds to death. McWay wants to focus on the "death by" clause (which he added) misguidedly thinking it invalidates the parallels between Jesus and Attis. It doesn't. There's only three hours between there being two dead guys crucified on a tree.

Yes, I do want to focus on the "death by" clause, because, boy genius, that is just one of the details (which you swear I couldn't find) between Jesus and Attis: Method of Execution (HOW THEY DIE), not what is supposedly done with their bodies, after croaking in another fashion.

Jesus dies VIA CRUCIFIXION; Attis does NOT (he cuts his nuts off and bleeds to death). Your feebly trying to equate the two by claiming Attis was "crucified" post-mortem is utterly ridiculous and screams loudly, regarding your desperation to create a similarity that is not there. What Attis' followers did or didn't do with Attis' CORPSE  is completely irrelevant.

Cries of dishonesty from someone, foolishly attempting to equate Attis' self-castration or Osiris' being drowned with Jesus' crucifixion, are little more than concise forms of slapstick comedy.

The reason he does this is pretty obvious, he needs some hair to split in order to dismiss the coincidences... it would be much harder to argue that the Jesus story is original if the only original aspect were that Jesus dies ON the cross whereas Attis dies UNDER the cross.

What coincidence?

One dies via crucifixion, accused of blasphemy and being an insurrectionist; the other dies under a TREE from bleeding to death by self-emasculation (lusting after his own mama, no less).

One rises from the dead; the other remains DEAD, except for a patch of growing hair and a wiggling finger (the account even says that Zeus/Jupiter is asked to bring Attis back to life and he says "NO!").

One was conceived of a virgin-birth, with the virgin's full cognizance and approval; the other was conceived, via a god getting his freak on, on an unsuspecting mortal girl.

The two don't match, Luke, pure and simple, no hair-splitting involved.

I have managed to dig up the references to the plagiarism of the Sermon on the Mount though, I'll try to find one that is a little easier to read (something less academic).


The Luke

And, the excuses continue!!!

[Shaunie]

Oh my...

The biblical writers were more than capable of coming up with any number of unique elements in the Jesus story.  They could have written anything they wanted of course! 

Although I've never thought about what elements of the various Gospels are unique, perhaps I could venture a few possibles?

1)  Jesus was the fulfillment of a seed line through ordinary humans - David onwards.
2)  Jesus was perfect in the sense that he committed no wrong doing or moral injustice.
3)  Jesus freely passed on the ability to perform miracles to his disciples.
4)  The idea of being all things to all men.
5)  Jesus superceded a previous covenant from God with a new set of rules.
6)  Jesus entering the house of his father and kicking off.

I must confess I'm not sure if these are unique.  I must also confess I don't think it's important...  the bible writers wrote so much tosh, that some must be unique!

[The Luke]

McWay,


You make a lot of claims about what I have posted and often quote me directly... but you never quote my posts. Is it because you are misquoting me?

...if you can quote the post of mine in which I claimed these other precursor gods "died by crucifixion" then I'll answer that. I never made any such claim... I claimed there was a long tradition (predating Jesus) of dying-resurrecting solar deity godmen who were crucified.

McWay then decided to misquote me and add in the "death by" part in order to invalidate my claim.

I certainly can't back up dishonest modifications of the claims that I make, and you shouldn't expect me to.

...this remains a valid complaint. A valid complaint that hasn't been answered.


Please quote the post of mine where I used this "death by crucifixion" phrase or either:
-desist from falsely attributing it to me just to misquote me
-admit that you added this clause to deliberately misquote me


Put up or shut up, McWay. You have been caught red handed misquoting to suit your argument.


The Luke

[loco]

Challenge to Christians/Evangelicals:

Name or cite one single detail or incident in the Jesus story that is not:
-lifted from a previous Pagan Mystery Religion
-an astrological allegory

Bet you can't.


The Luke

PS... short succinct posts please so I can answer them.

Okay.  I take the challenge.  I cite, not just a single detail, but two.  Yes I can, and yes I did!

1. Jesus Christ's death by crucifixion

2. Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount

[The Luke]

Okay.  I take the challenge.  I cite, not just a single detail, but two.  Yes I can, and yes I did!

1. Jesus Christ's death by crucifixion

2. Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount

I can actually tackle BOTH of these together, as they tie in somewhat.

But it'll take a lot of explaining, so I'll type it up after the holidays (I don't have apologist websites with ready-made dishonest essays to copy and paste from).


MERRY MITHRAS EVERYONE!


The Luke 

[loco]

I can actually tackle BOTH of these together, as they tie in somewhat.

But it'll take a lot of explaining, so I'll type it up after the holidays (I don't have apologist websites with ready-made dishonest essays to copy and paste from).


MERRY MITHRAS EVERYONE!


The Luke 

Dang, after the holidays?  Last time you said "tomorrow" after your "workout", you took weeks.  I can't imagine what "after the holidays" means...two years from today?

Nah, in all seriousness  Feliz Navidad to you and your family!   

[big L dawg]

Okay.  I take the challenge.  I cite, not just a single detail, but two.  Yes I can, and yes I did!

1. Jesus Christ's death by crucifixion

2. Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount

a book as thick as the bible.surely you can come up with hundred's of instances.I mean your lord wasn't a plagiarist.right?

[loco]

a book as thick as the bible.surely you can come up with hundred's of instances.I mean your lord wasn't a plagiarist.right?

big L dawg,

I do not understand your comment.  The Luke started the thread with his claim that "every detail" about Jesus was borrowed from ancient myths, and he challenged Christians on the board to cite a single detail about Jesus that is original.  I am simply responding to his challenge. 

So obviously, I disagree with him and you seem to disagree with him as well.

[big L dawg]

big L dawg,

I do not understand your comment.  The Luke started the thread with his claim that "every detail" about Jesus was borrowed from ancient myths, and he challenged Christians on the board to cite a single detail about Jesus that is original.  I am simply responding to his challenge. 

So obviously, I disagree with him and you seem to disagree with him as well.

yes exactly.the Luke started the thread not me.I'm not sure how you don't understand my post though.It seem's like a pretty straight forward comment.

[loco]

yes exactly.the Luke started the thread not me.I'm not sure how you don't understand my post though.It seem's like a pretty straight forward comment.

I agree with you.  The Luke is wrong. 

[The Luke]

I agree with you.  The Luke is wrong. 

...epic reading comprehension.


The Luke

[loco]

Neither one of you understands sarcasm I suppose.

So according to you both, to say that Jesus Christ died is plagiarism because many people have died too.   

I suppose next you'll say that Kennedy never existed and that everything about him was plagiarized from Lincoln.   

I mean...come on...look:

Both presidents were elected to the presidency in '60.

Both presidents were elected to the House of Representatives in '46.

Both were runners-up for the party's nomination for vice-president in '56.

Both assassins were born in '39.

Both successors were Southern Democrats named Johnson born in '08.

Both presidents were concerned with the problems of American blacks and made their view strongly known in '63. Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862, which became law in 1863. In 1963, Kennedy presented his reports to Congress on Civil Rights, and the same year was the famous March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.

Both presidents were shot in the head.

Both presidents were shot on a Friday.

Lincoln was shot at Ford's Theatre. Kennedy was shot in a Ford car; a Lincoln limousine.

Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy who told him not to go to the theatre. Kennedy had a secretary
named Evelyn Lincoln (whose husband Harold's nickname was Abe), and she warned him not to go to Dallas.
 
Both Oswald and Booth were assassinated before they could be put on trial.

Lincoln and Kennedy each have 7 letters.

John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald each have 15 letters.

There are 6 letters in each Johnson's first name.

Booth shot Lincoln in a theater and hid in a warehouse, while Oswald shot Kennedy in a warehouse and hid in a theater.

[MCWAY]

McWay,


You make a lot of claims about what I have posted and often quote me directly... but you never quote my posts. Is it because you are misquoting me?

...this remains a valid complaint. A valid complaint that hasn't been answered.

You must be smoking that stuff, Luke. Or did you forget that you made a claim on the other thread, denied that you did, ONLY FOR ME TO QUOTE YOUR EXACT WORDS (giving the number of that post, the date, the time, etc.)?

Please quote the post of mine where I used this "death by crucifixion" phrase or either:
-desist from falsely attributing it to me just to misquote me
-admit that you added this clause to deliberately misquote me


Put up or shut up, McWay. You have been caught red handed misquoting to suit your argument.


The Luke

Once again, you put on this martyr complex, whenever you can't put your money where your mouth is.

I DID NOT claim that you used the "death by crucifixion" phrase. I've been the one that's used it. And the reason for that is because you keep up this utterly ridiculous tactic of trying to equate Attis' death with that of Jesus Christ.

You made the bone-headed claim that no one could find a single detail about Jesus Christ that wasn't lifted from a pagan religion.

I named several details, among those was the CRUCIFIXION.

The CRUCIFIXION is in reference to (listen very closely, Luke, because this simple concept apparently flies right over your head) HOW JESUS DIED.

You know that Attis DID NOT DIE via crucifixion. We all know how he died: Self-Castration. So, in your desperate and pea-brained attempt to make your wobbly claim stand, you start sniveling about Attis' body supposedly being nailed to a tree AFTER HIS DEATH, claiming this is similar to Jesus' crucifixion, which it clearly is not.

When the term, "crucified" is used, it is with regards to the METHOD OF EXECUTION, as I pointed out several times, by listing the definition of the word, crucifixion. Once again, it is METHOD OF EXECUTION (not what supposedly happened to someone's corpse, after death occurs via some other means).

You can't even get your facts right about Attis (or Osiris, or some of the other figures). So, you're the last person who needs to be running his mouth about "put up or shut up". Loco and I have been asking you for NEARLY A MONTH to produce the specific references to back some of your claims.

All you do is come up with excuse after excuse after excuse, whenever it's time for YOU to "put up". As Loco said, it took you over TWO WEEKS to respond to a question of his, when you were supposed to do so after your "workout". And you haven't even done that completely.

Then, on Stella's thread, you said you'd address the "Sermon on the Mount" thing for Loco. That was at least a week ago.

[The Luke]

I suppose next you'll say that Kennedy never existed and that everything about him was plagiarized from Lincoln.   

..to continue your analogy, but to align the parallels properly, YOU are the one who is insisting JFK was the one and only president ever.


The Luke

[big L dawg]

..to continue your analogy, but to align the parallels properly, YOU are the one who is insisting JFK was the one and only president ever.


The Luke

x2

[loco]

..to continue your analogy, but to align the parallels properly, YOU are the one who is insisting JFK was the one and only president ever.


The Luke

No, I am not.  Jesus was not the only 1st century Jew who died by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans. In fact, there were hundreds of them according to Josephus.  The problem with your claims is that none of the ancient myths that you claim the Biblical Gospels borrowed from died by crucifixion.

I'm still waiting, The Luke:

1. Jesus Christ's death by crucifixion

2. Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount

Stop changing the subject and own up to your challenge and to your claims.

[The Luke]

Stop changing the subject and own up to your challenge and to your claims.

...so many lonely shut-ins on this board.

I'm trying to have a Happy Mithras with my family. Every year we get together, exchange presents, and celebrate the divine virgin birth of our lord and saviour, Mithras, born on the 25th of December 4,407 years ago.

I'll get to it when I have time.

Merry Mithras everbody.


The Luke

[The Luke]

I'm still waiting, The Luke:

1. Jesus Christ's death by crucifixion

2. Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount

Stop changing the subject and own up to your challenge and to your claims.

Loco,


First off, apologies, been busier than usual... compounded by the holidays.


I think I can best fully explain the origin of these two details (1: Death by crucifixion; and 2: Sermon on the Mount) by first comparing the details of Jesus' life with a generic astrological metaphor godman who predates Jesus by several millennia and whose story DOES NOT involve crucifixion or resurrection, then source these two distinct details you have cited which crept into the generic astrological metaphor godman story later.


Would that convince you?

If I showed that:

-Jesus conforms very closely to the very earliest incarnations of the common astrological metaphor godman (EXCEPT for his 1: Death by crucifixion and 2: Sermon on the Mount)

-that the Sermon on the Mount was plagiarised from a known (extant) far eastern philosophy school

-that this plagiarism was accompanied by other blatant word-for-word plagiarisms

-that Jesus' death by crucifixion might well be lifted from the very same philosophy school

-that other Mystery Religions similarly influenced by eastern philosophy also adopted a metaphorical crucifixion and rebirth for their own particular solar-deity

-that the very same people who counterfeited the Jesus myth had access to the teachings of this far eastern school of philosophy


...if I could show all that, would that convince you that neither the Sermon on the Mount nor Jesus' death by crucifixion are original? Would you then concede such? Openly?


Please answer this BEFORE I go to the trouble of typing up a response... there's no point in me hammering away against a brick wall.


The Luke

[leonp1981]

there's no point in me hammering away against a brick wall.

After 14 pages, I think that ship has well and truly sailed.

[The Luke]

After 14 pages, I think that ship has well and truly sailed.

...I was hoping they'd relent when every 1-post contributors two-cents-worth came in on my side, but yeah... I'm beginning to despair for American intelligence.


The Luke 

[big L dawg]

the religions and beliefs of what happened in there infancy are fables and myth more than anything else.So why even argue over the specifics of any givin religious propaganda?

[MCWAY]

the religions and beliefs of what happened in there infancy are fables and myth more than anything else.So why even argue over the specifics of any givin religious propaganda?

WRONG on both counts. And the historical evidence has been shown, regarding the accounts of Jesus Christ.

Plus, the reason for arguing the specific is because the claim was made that Jesus was crafted from these other figures. That has been demonstratively shown to be FALSE.

[big L dawg]

WRONG on both counts. And the historical evidence has been shown, regarding the accounts of Jesus Christ.

Plus, the reason for arguing the specific is because the claim was made that Jesus was crafted from these other figures. That has been demonstratively shown to be FALSE.

wrong on both counts...

It's historical propaganda that which u believe in...no one knows the facts as know one was there...ever play operator as a kid get 20 people in a line start a story by the time it gets to the 20th person the facts of the story are distorted beyond repair...now factor that in over thousands of years...blah blah it's all bullshit...but whatever helps you sleep at night...

religion shackles the mind.It's all based on control and designed to get u 2 conform and obey.bah bahhh sheep...

[MCWAY]

wrong on both counts...

It's historical propaganda that which u believe in...no one knows the facts as know one was there...ever play operator as a kid get 20 people in a line start a story by the time it gets to the 20th person the facts of the story are distorted beyond repair...now factor that in over thousands of years...blah blah it's all bullshit...but whatever helps you sleep at night...

religion shackles the mind.It's all based on control and designed to get u 2 conform and obey.bah bahhh sheep...

PLEASE!!! Most of what you know about historical figures comes from secondhand sources. But, I guess we should throw out all of ancient history, based on your rather stupid and baseless claims.