Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out

[shootfighter1]

But that seems entirely transparent 333386..I'm looking for someone to point out the other side's view on this one.  Its seems to be a complete disaster and irresponsible!?

[Soul Crusher]

But that seems entirely transparent 333386..I'm looking for someone to point out the other side's view on this one.  Its seems to be a complete disaster and irresponsible!?

The argument by the AFL is that businesses have been able to shut out unionization to such a degree that the scales are now tipped heavily against the unions.  The Unions claim to need this so that they can increase membership and keep from being shut out completely. 

Even many liberals are against this disaster.  This truly will be a watershed moment if this mess goes through.  Huge layoffs will happen.   

[Hereford]

that's a really really good question.

I suppose if we were going to discuss this intelligently we'd look at the ledger to determine what the Big 3's annual expenses are and what the annual income is.  That would give us a first step to address what might be excessive and what isn't.

I point out the executive pay b/c it's grown by HUUUUUGE leaps and bounds over the years while the workers have accepted management's concessions for wage freezes.  That's still generalizing though.  Those aren't numbers.

That 'rathole' of organized labor is the backbone of this country.

By the way, why does management's shit smell better to you than labor's?

I'm sorry, why do you defend executives over the working class?

Actually no, I agree that the top dogs are ripping off the system too.

It's just that I have never heard an intelligent argument as to how union labor benefits anyone or anything (other than their own system) in modern society. The most common retort is "Well the CEO makes a lot of money, so who cares if the laborer does too..."

[MRDUMPLING]

Transparent voting is wrong.  It is nobodies business how a person votes...for anything.  I know I will get crap for this, but in times like now I'm glad I live in the South...no unions to mention.  If you work you get paid...if you don't, you don't get paid.  Just a synopsis, but you get the picture.   

I also read somewhere that foreign companies' execs don't make nearly as much money as the Big 3 execs make.  I still say let them fail, I'm tired of bailouts, I'm tired of corrupt politicians, and I'm tired of politicians spending our money and then saying it isn't ours. 

[Decker]

Actually no, I agree that the top dogs are ripping off the system too.

It's just that I have never heard an intelligent argument as to how union labor benefits anyone or anything (other than their own system) in modern society. The most common retort is "Well the CEO makes a lot of money, so who cares if the laborer does too..."

In the bargaining process for employment, management has the upperhand.  Unions benefit the average worker by putting the full force of the rank and file behind each individual worker for bargaining purposes.

This has resulted in securing that which was once the norm in this country:  a livable wage, health benefits and a pension.

Now in today's conditioned pop culture, those things are viewed as excessive or gravy.  The worker should be grateful to just have a job...and work the most hours in the civilized world...for less pay...no benefits...except the one's that the worker himself funds through tax deferred vehicles like 401(k) plans or Sec. 125 plans.

[OzmO]

In the bargaining process for employment, management has the upperhand.  Unions benefit the average worker by putting the full force of the rank and file behind each individual worker for bargaining purposes.

This has resulted in securing that which was once the norm in this country:  a livable wage, health benefits and a pension.

Now in today's conditioned pop culture, those things are viewed as excessive or gravy.  The worker should be grateful to just have a job...and work the most hours in the civilized world...for less pay...no benefits...except the one's that the worker himself funds through tax deferred vehicles like 401(k) plans or Sec. 125 plans.

I agree, but $40 per hour for this?  While foreign automakers have no unions, pay their people more, and produce a better product?

That make no sense.

[Decker]

I agree, but $40 per hour for this?  While foreign automakers have no unions, pay their people more, and produce a better product?

That make no sense.

Foreign Automakers also have to work in dangerous sweatshop conditions.  Foreign Automakers also have to work without any concern for the environment.  Foreign Automakers are not bound to the same values that bind us.

The grass is not greener on the non-unionized side.

It's always been the dream of corporate america to have unions demonized to the extent that even the people helped by unions bitch and moan about them.

Free labor, or a close approximation, is always the prize for the elites.

It was the efforts of unions decades ago that helped establish and maintain our American middle class.  What a shock to realize that both are disappearing.

I would like to see a comprehensive analysis on exactly how Unions are to blame for the shit we are in now.

B/c from where I'm sitting, the protestations are nothing more than regurgitated propganda.

[The Coach]

Let them deal with it on thier own, that's what we have bankruptcy laws for. F**k em.

[Decker]

Let them deal with it on thier own, that's what we have bankruptcy laws for. F**k em.

There's that broad-minded pragmatic compassionate opinion that you're so famous for.

[OzmO]

Foreign Automakers also have to work in dangerous sweatshop conditions.  Foreign Automakers also have to work without any concern for the environment.  Foreign Automakers are not bound to the same values that bind us.

The grass is not greener on the non-unionized side.

It's always been the dream of corporate america to have unions demonized to the extent that even the people helped by unions bitch and moan about them.

Free labor, or a close approximation, is always the prize for the elites.

It was the efforts of unions decades ago that helped establish and maintain our American middle class.  What a shock to realize that both are disappearing.

I would like to see a comprehensive analysis on exactly how Unions are to blame for the shit we are in now.

B/c from where I'm sitting, the protestations are nothing more than regurgitated propganda.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be Unions.  But when it cost $40 (over 100% of the base hourly pay) an hour to have them and we still turn out an inferior product and our companies are going bankrupt then there's something wrong.

I think it's on both.  The companies a poorly ran and Unions are fleecing them.  

[The Coach]

There's that broad-minded pragmatic compassionate opinion that you're so famous for.

They came in with out a plan asking for money and when asked how much, they couldn't answer because they didn't know. The government was not formed to bailout people. Don't give me that compassionate crap, I'm not paying for handouts, if you want to, send them a check.

[Soul Crusher]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be Unions.  But when it cost $40 (over 100% of the base hourly pay) an hour to have them and we still turn out an inferior product and our companies are going bankrupt then there's something wrong.

I think it's on both.  The companies a poorly ran and Unions are fleecing them.  

To me, this issue is VERY SIMPLE.

GM, FORD, AND CHRYSLER, cannot produce a cheap, reliable decent product that people want because the cost of labor and producing the product is too high to be viable.  They simply cannot produce a good car at 20k or less because they would lose money doing so.

The only money that these companies make money on are the big trucks and SUVS well over 30K in price.

This is why these companies need to go bankrupt and end the UAW contracts.

There is a very solid reason by toyota, bmw, and honda make products here and are not in need of a bailout.

Unions, inovation, rational managment, and a GOOD PRODUCT!

[shootfighter1]

Decker, your right about the purpose of unions and what they traditionally represent..but what they are now doing and what they are supposed to be doing are not the same.  They are making it very difficult to compete internationally.  Unions and greedy CEOs are both a problem, thats why they need to file for bankrupcy and restructure the management, the union contracts, and the actual products they make. 

Going to washington asking for billions of our dollars without a detailed plan is an insult to the American people and to the government.  These greedy SOBs assumed the gov would just give them our $?  Thank god some good repubs and dems said no...for now...

[OzmO]

To me, this issue is VERY SIMPLE.

GM, FORD, AND CHRYSLER, cannot produce a cheap, reliable decent product that people want because the cost of labor and producing the product is too high to be viable.  They simply cannot produce a good car at 20k or less because they would lose money doing so.

The only money that these companies make money on are the big trucks and SUVS well over 30K in price.

This is why these companies need to go bankrupt and end the UAW contracts.

There is a very solid reason by toyota, bmw, and honda make products here and are not in need of a bailout.

Unions, inovation, rational managment, and a GOOD PRODUCT!

You bring up a good point.  foreign automakers in this country don't have the same problems

[shootfighter1]

To me, it seems overtime pay is also a problem.  If you talk to people who have worked in the auto industry, they try to work more than 40hrs/week because they get double time or time and a half.  Thats how some of these workers get paid nearly $100,000 per yr.  Why do companies and unions allow this?  Why don't they limit overtime and force the company to hire more people?  ...probably the overall costs of benefits and union representation.  The point is that it costs 40-45% more for a unionized American auto worker compared to the asian auto counterpart. 
If we reorganized unions to reduce needless expense, pooled benefits, limited double time pay for overtime, limit extra paid leave and lay offs and cut wages to better represent the work the employees are doing, we could lessen the cost of vehicles and provide more jobs overall. 

Again, CEO, COO and corporate management also needs restructuring.  Tie bonuses only to company profits.

[Soul Crusher]

You bring up a good point.  foreign automakers in this country don't have the same problems

Check this out.  I have a 2002 Explorer and a 2007 BMW 3 Series.  

At 36000 miles the transmission went on the Explorer.  i did some research and found out that ford knew about the problem and didnt event issue a recall because of the cost involved.  It cost me a lot of money and they very rude about it!  

I have had to replace the thermostat because the car overheated due to some relay malfunction.  I need new struts and shocks already at 50,000 miles and just this damn morning the Check Engine Light went on again.  I will never ever buy a Ford again.  I also had a mustang which was nothing but trouble.

The BMW?  Best car I have ever owned by far.  The service is great and never a problem.  no rattles, no shakes, no problems, no recalls, nothing.

The domestic companies did this to themselves.    

[240 is Back]

They came in with out a plan asking for money and when asked how much, they couldn't answer because they didn't know. The government was not formed to bailout people. Don't give me that compassionate crap, I'm not paying for handouts, if you want to, send them a check.

I agree.  let them fail.  Otherwise, it's going to be $25 Bill MORE, every 2 months, as they keep leading us along with "great product innovation coming in 2010... we just need help til then!".

[shootfighter1]

Its just insulting they had no f'n plan when they asked congress for another 25billion dollars of our tax money.  WTF!?!

[Soul Crusher]

Its just insulting they had no f'n plan when they asked congress for another 25billion dollars of our tax money.  WTF!?!

The money is just going to be used to meet payroll and other ongoing obligations. 

[OzmO]

Check this out.  I have a 2002 Explorer and a 2007 BMW 3 Series.  

At 36000 miles the transmission went on the Explorer.  i did some research and found out that ford knew about the problem and didnt event issue a recall because of the cost involved.  It cost me a lot of money and they very rude about it!  

I have had to replace the thermostat because the car overheated due to some relay malfunction.  I need new struts and shocks already at 50,000 miles and just this damn morning the Check Engine Light went on again.  I will never ever buy a Ford again.  I also had a mustang which was nothing but trouble.

The BMW?  Best car I have ever owned by far.  The service is great and never a problem.  no rattles, no shakes, no problems, no recalls, nothing.

The domestic companies did this to themselves.    

I had a similar experiences with my Escalade which i got rid of in May and got a C240 which i freaking love. 

Why can't they make good cars?   Is it because they (the CEO's) are only concerned about the shareholders?

[Decker]

They came in with out a plan asking for money and when asked how much, they couldn't answer because they didn't know. The government was not formed to bailout people. Don't give me that compassionate crap, I'm not paying for handouts, if you want to, send them a check.

And how do the autoworkers differ from the wall street bankers who received a big piece of the 700 billion Bush Bailout?

[Soul Crusher]

And how do the autoworkers differ from the wall street bankers who received a big piece of the 700 billion Bush Bailout?

I thought the original bailout was a mistake as well.  It set a terrible precedent.

[Hereford]

Check this out.  I have a 2002 Explorer and a 2007 BMW 3 Series.  

At 36000 miles the transmission went on the Explorer.  i did some research and found out that ford knew about the problem and didnt event issue a recall because of the cost involved.  It cost me a lot of money and they very rude about it!  

I have had to replace the thermostat because the car overheated due to some relay malfunction.  I need new struts and shocks already at 50,000 miles and just this damn morning the Check Engine Light went on again.  I will never ever buy a Ford again.  I also had a mustang which was nothing but trouble.

The BMW?  Best car I have ever owned by far.  The service is great and never a problem.  no rattles, no shakes, no problems, no recalls, nothing.

The domestic companies did this to themselves.    

I have an F250 that I had a similar experience with. The clutches on the manual transmissions are junk. Ford knows this, yet refused to recall them or replace them, citing that they are 'wear and tear' items, much like tires, windshield wipers and brake pads. Then Ford chooses to charge $1800 for replacement clutch, which you can only get from the dealers. I put a high-preformance clutch in for a few hundred less.

It is also a bitch to get Ford to warranty anything. You go into any Ford dealer and the guys there are rude as hell. I waited almost 20 minutes the last time I was in to get a camshaft sensor replaced for the guy to get off the damn phone with his buddy. Good, solid union work.

Then I have an 01 5 series BMW. Never had any issues other than the brake rotors warping a little.

We only buy Toyota and Euro cars now. Cheaper in price, and twice the car.

[Hereford]

I had a similar experiences with my Escalade which i got rid of in May and got a C240 which i freaking love. 

Why can't they make good cars?   Is it because they (the CEO's) are only concerned about the shareholders?

Dude, Ozmo... I am a GM shareholder... and we are getting royally screwed across the board.

The management is covering the union contracts, and nothing else.

[Decker]

Decker, your right about the purpose of unions and what they traditionally represent..but what they are now doing and what they are supposed to be doing are not the same.  They are making it very difficult to compete internationally.  Unions and greedy CEOs are both a problem, thats why they need to file for bankrupcy and restructure the management, the union contracts, and the actual products they make. 

Going to washington asking for billions of our dollars without a detailed plan is an insult to the American people and to the government.  These greedy SOBs assumed the gov would just give them our $?  Thank god some good repubs and dems said no...for now...

How do you know this:  "They are making it very difficult to compete internationally."?

Doesn't practically any US based manufacturer get killed on the cost of labor b/c our competitors pay pennies on the dollar comparativley speaking?

Is our country doomed to race to the bottom for labor so that we are 'on par' with the lowest paying unregulated shithole country on the planet?

These are the things I think about instead of doing my damn job.