$73 an Hour: Adding It Up

[Al Doggity]

I dont need congrats.  Im pointing out that as a consumer I am not forced to purchase overpriced crap from the us auto'.s

if they want my business, let them produce an eqaully good product at similar cost.

You do realize that this is the point of the article, don't you?

[Decker]

Upon further review, this article is not that good.

It keeps repeating the bogus claim that $73.00 is the hourly wage of the rank and file when in fact the UAW workers make almost the same amount as their non-unionized foreign counterparts.

[Soul Crusher]

Upon further review, this article is not that good.

It keeps repeating the bogus claim that $73.00 is the hourly wage of the rank and file when in fact the UAW workers make almost the same amount as their non-unionized foreign counterparts.

That was why I claimed it was dishonest. 

The actual workers are not making that much, but that is what it costs the company.

If GM was not saddled with the baggage it has, it could pay the workers more on an hourly basis.
 

[shootfighter1]

The article is interesting.  Good find.   Blanco, the article argues both for and against the unions IMO.  The unions have negotiated generous retirement packages for their workers.  I know they have offered early retirement to many of their employees.  One of my best friend's brothers is 53 and is retired with full benefits.

The new contracts may be different, but the companies cannot afford (or compete) when they have early and excessive retirement packages.  I wish everyone could have a nice retirement, but its not fair for the UAW to but such a burden on the companies.  Other workers aren't given nearly the same packages.

Line workers should make between $15-20/hr IMO.  Repetitive, low skill job...so many people can do the work.  I think all workers of large companies should have health benefits and some kind of retirement program but we have to eliminate early retirement and make employees contribute to their retirement packages.

[Decker]

That was why I claimed it was dishonest. 

The actual workers are not making that much, but that is what it costs the company.

If GM was not saddled with the baggage it has, it could pay the workers more on an hourly basis.
 

So you're stating that the wages aren't the problem, the benefits are. 

Those bargained-for benefits were paid for competent productivity that netted the industry billions.

Now that those billions have been pissed away, you seem to think that the benefits should also be extinguished.

The workers delivered their end.  They made cars.  The executives told them what cars to make.  The executives did a pretty bad job in retrospect.

[Soul Crusher]

So you're stating that the wages aren't the problem, the benefits are. 

Those bargained-for benefits were paid for competent productivity that netted the industry billions.

Now that those billions have been pissed away, you seem to think that the benefits should also be extinguished.

The workers delivered their end.  They made cars.  The executives told them what cars to make.  The executives did a pretty bad job in retrospect.

What dont you get moron?  You are stuck in the 1950's and dont realize that those models are no longer viable or sustainable.   

The companies are going broke and none of these people will get damn thing unless drastic changes are made, whether you like it or not.  Your complaints are moot if the companies go out of business.   

When these "benefits" were bargained for, people did not collect for 30 and 40 years and did not run to the doctor every time they had a nose bleed.

Unles these companies restructure immediately, they will be gone and all the workers will get nothing. 

The party is over, the bills have come do, and its time to pay the piper. 

Any company losing billions a month cant be around for too long.

   

[shootfighter1]

Cost of benefits are also much higher than they were 20yrs ago.  Its just not a sustainable model.

Decker, I agree with you on sticking up for the workers, in general, and I am all for giving them a protected reasonable wage, vacation and health coverage, but the benefits the UAW has negotiated are unusual compared to other industries...even other unionized industries.  Particularly with retirement packages and paid lay-offs.
Your right, a more competitive car must be made.  That is just as important as any other issue.  If the cars aren't desired and competitive, the rest of these arguments are null and void.

My nurse's husband is a steelworker (unionized) and they all joke about how much better UAW workers have it.

[Hereford]

What dont you get moron?  You are stuck in the 1950's and dont realize that those models are no longer viable or sustainable.   

The companies are going broke and none of these people will get damn thing unless drastic changes are made, whether you like it or not.  Your complaints are moot if the companies go out of business.   

When these "benefits" were bargained for, people did not collect for 30 and 40 years and did not run to the doctor every time they had a nose bleed.

Unles these companies restructure immediately, they will be gone and all the workers will get nothing. 

The party is over, the bills have come do, and its time to pay the piper. 

Any company losing billions a month cant be around for too long.

   

Nope, you can bet the Dems will see to it that the taxpayer takes over the union costs. Watch the shareholders and management get screwed.

[Soul Crusher]

Nope, you can bet the Dems will see to it that the taxpayer takes over the union costs. Watch the shareholders and management get screwed.

Screw that!

[Decker]

What dont you get moron?  You are stuck in the 1950's and dont realize that those models are no longer viable or sustainable.   

The companies are going broke and none of these people will get damn thing unless drastic changes are made, whether you like it or not.  Your complaints are moot if the companies go out of business.   

When these "benefits" were bargained for, people did not collect for 30 and 40 years and did not run to the doctor every time they had a nose bleed.

Unles these companies restructure immediately, they will be gone and all the workers will get nothing. 

The party is over, the bills have come do, and its time to pay the piper. 

Any company losing billions a month cant be around for too long.

You're a tool of many sorts.  A stool of Business elites--let's get rid of unions b/c....well, just b/c.

You talk about lean and mean yet you refer to health and retirement benefits as "The party is over"...

What fucking party?  Is that party of seeing a doctor without losing your home?  Or is it the fucking party that you can eat more than dog food in your retirement?

As stool, you are conditioned to believe Unions baaaaaaaadddddd...nyaahh hh.

Guys like you won't be happy until we have work for food programs and the soup kitchens back in business.

It's people like you who are ruining this country.

[Decker]

Cost of benefits are also much higher than they were 20yrs ago.  Its just not a sustainable model.

Decker, I agree with you on sticking up for the workers, in general, and I am all for giving them a protected reasonable wage, vacation and health coverage, but the benefits the UAW has negotiated are unusual compared to other industries...even other unionized industries.  Particularly with retirement packages and paid lay-offs.
Your right, a more competitive car must be made.  That is just as important as any other issue.  If the cars aren't desired and competitive, the rest of these arguments are null and void.

My nurse's husband is a steelworker (unionized) and they all joke about how much better UAW workers have it.

It's unusual b/c the standards out there rely on the employee to fund his own healthcare and retirement...all on 45K a year.  Unless one works for a large company, where the cost of insurance is low, there is no viable insurance plan.  That's why there's 47 million uninsured people in this country.  People may have insurance but the goddam deductible is so high that they forgo medication b/c it's too expensive. 

Whether the cars are desired or 'competitive' is not a manufacturing problem.  It's not the problem of the workers.  That's a failure of management.  You know, the guys who ride in private jets and make 30 million a year to fail.

[Soul Crusher]

It's unusual b/c the standards out there rely on the employee to fund his own healthcare and retirement...all on 45K a year.  Unless one works for a large company, where the cost of insurance is low, there is no viable insurance plan.  That's why there's 47 million uninsured people in this country.  People may have insurance but the goddam deductible is so high that they forgo medication b/c it's too expensive. 

Whether the cars are desired or 'competitive' is not a manufacturing problem.  It's not the problem of the workers.  That's a failure of management.  You know, the guys who ride in private jets and make 30 million a year to fail.

More class warfare garbage. 

A company is in business to make money and profit for the shareholders.  Corporations are not employment agencies whose purpose is to keep people employed, its to make a profit.

Without a profit, there is no business.

   


 

[Soul Crusher]

Ha ha. 

How many people do you employ? 

I pay my taxes, have never collected welfare, have never collected unemployment, never been a burden on the state.  And you say I'm ruining the country when millions are on welfare and bleeding us dry?

   

[Soul Crusher]

It's unusual b/c the standards out there rely on the employee to fund his own healthcare and retirement...all on 45K a year.  Unless one works for a large company, where the cost of insurance is low, there is no viable insurance plan.  That's why there's 47 million uninsured people in this country.  People may have insurance but the goddam deductible is so high that they forgo medication b/c it's too expensive. 

Whether the cars are desired or 'competitive' is not a manufacturing problem.  It's not the problem of the workers.  That's a failure of management.  You know, the guys who ride in private jets and make 30 million a year to fail.

"Whether the cars are desired or 'competitive' is not a manufacturing problem.  It's not the problem of the worke"rs.  That's a failure of management."


Of course its the workers' problem.  If the company produces a garbage product that the consumer believes is not reliable or of good value, the company will go out of business, and for good reason.

You can't force people to purchase over priced vehicles that are not reliable compared to their counterparts.  Those days are long over.

The Big Three do not have 70% share like they used to and are not going to ever get it back unless you want some type of nationlized auto industry and have pelosi and reid running the auto companies.   

[shootfighter1]

Of course, poor products are an automotive design/engineer and management problem.

Still, we must recognize that there are multiple problems in our auto industry and address as many as possible.  A bailout loan or bankrupcy has to address management compensation/bonuses, multiple aspects of the UAW, and ultimately, producing a better product.

I strongly believe the gov should give a tax incentive for buying a car from one of the big 3 for 2009.  That makes perfect sense to me.  I also like the idea of extending the warranties.

[MRDUMPLING]

I think you still aren't seeing the point Decker...the UAW is just one of many labor unions out there.  I have no problem with unions.  It's the fact that Detroit is not what it used to be.  333 has a point when he talks about the costs that were negotiated by the unions.  The model just isn't feasible in this day and time, they haven't been for a while either.  The UAW sure hasn't exactly helped the issue.  What are they going to do if the Big 3 go under?  Sue?  You can talk about lifestyles all you want but if the business fails then everybody is out of a job period.  I think some restructuring is in order across the board...including CEOs, UAW, management, engineering/design, etc.  The UAW is NOT an innocent bystander that is being portrayed.

Does anybody know of anybody that works for a foreign auto maker?  Do they not receive pay plus benefits?  That is a number that I would like to read about. 

[Decker]

I think you still aren't seeing the point Decker...the UAW is just one of many labor unions out there.  I have no problem with unions.  It's the fact that Detroit is not what it used to be.  333 has a point when he talks about the costs that were negotiated by the unions.  The model just isn't feasible in this day and time, they haven't been for a while either.  The UAW sure hasn't exactly helped the issue.  What are they going to do if the Big 3 go under?  Sue?  You can talk about lifestyles all you want but if the business fails then everybody is out of a job period.  I think some restructuring is in order across the board...including CEOs, UAW, management, engineering/design, etc.  The UAW is NOT an innocent bystander that is being portrayed.

Does anybody know of anybody that works for a foreign auto maker?  Do they not receive pay plus benefits?  That is a number that I would like to read about. 

So let me get this straight.  It's ok for the executive class to have private jets, ski villas in the Alps, 3,4 or 5 homes, all paid for by the productivity of past and current workers and when the market sours, the thing to be jettisoned is the employee's health and retirement plans.

Do you see why 3333's argument is just bullshit propaganda? 

You say the business model is not feasible.  What business model? 

The business has already failed.  The Big 3 will be reorganized.  That's capitalism for you.  That's why they need a bailout. 

Since Toyota's profits were down 74% this past reporting period, I don't think we should be tapping them for info on how to run a business.  That, and the fact that Toyota's been bailed out before by its government.

[Soul Crusher]

The company is losing billions a month, not millions.  The executives do not make billions a month.

[Decker]

The company is losing billions a month, not millions.  The executives do not make billions a month.

No shit.  You talk of legacy costs, look at legacy profits as well.  Or can't you see those?

[Soul Crusher]

No shit.  You talk of legacy costs, look at legacy profits as well.  Or can't you see those?

The company is a step away from Chapter 7 or 11 and you talk about "legacy profits"?

What the heck are you smoking?

Even if you cut the pay by 75% of all executives, they would still be dying and going out of business.

The companies need current profits to pay for benefits for both those working and retired  without that, the company dies, like it is now.  In fact, toyoyta's profits may be down, but they are paying their bills, unlike GM.

Unless GM and Ford can produce a quality car at a reasonable price that people want and are willing to choose over comparable foreign makes, the companies are going away.  Unless, of course, you want to mandate people buy only GM or Ford??? 



   

[Decker]

The company is a step away from Chapter 7 or 11 and you talk about "legacy profits"?

What the heck are you smoking?

buttery colombian

Even if you cut the pay by 75% of all executives, they would still be dying and going out of business.

How do you know this?

The companies need current profits to pay for benefits for both those working and retired  without that, the company dies, like it is now.  In fact, toyoyta's profits may be down, but they are paying their bills, unlike GM.

So it's the cost of union benefits that's the culprit here?  Bullshit.

Unless GM and Ford can produce a quality car at a reasonable price that people want and are willing to choose over comparable foreign makes, the companies are going away.  Unless, of course, you want to mandate people buy only GM or Ford??? 

Why should they do that?  They get more bang for their buck building giant trucks that stupid americans buy as if they are mana. 

The only time SUVs became unpopular was when the price of oil spiked.  NOw that it's down, these stupid fucking cocksuckers (I hate sounding so academic) will be buying more SUVs b/c it's a hell of a status symbol.  The bigger the moron, the bigger the car.

I'm sure the executives will have a plan of action that will save the company.  They'll likely be discussing it over Brie and Chardonnay on their private jets as they fly to their favorit vacation villa.
 

[Soul Crusher]

You dont sound academic, you sound like the governor of Illinois.

BTW - obviously you have never a run a business.  Blaming the customer and potential customer is not a recipe for  success.

[Option D]

I have a BMW and it is the best car I have ever owned bar none.

i want a bmw...does that count...

[War-Horse]

I test drove a beemer a week ago.  Quite impressive. Very responsive and good power.

But i cant haul plywood in it ,so i bought a new GMC truck for an insane low price from a desperate dealer....

Just doing my part to help the economy.

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

thats not the american way......

The article is interesting.  Good find.   Blanco, the article argues both for and against the unions IMO.  The unions have negotiated generous retirement packages for their workers.  I know they have offered early retirement to many of their employees.  One of my best friend's brothers is 53 and is retired with full benefits.

The new contracts may be different, but the companies cannot afford (or compete) when they have early and excessive retirement packages.  I wish everyone could have a nice retirement, but its not fair for the UAW to but such a burden on the companies.  Other workers aren't given nearly the same packages.

Line workers should make between $15-20/hr IMO.  Repetitive, low skill job...so many people can do the work.  I think all workers of large companies should have health benefits and some kind of retirement program but we have to eliminate early retirement and make employees contribute to their retirement packages.