Natural 200lb bodybuilder jumps from 250 to 400 grams protein daily

[Euro-monster]

I went from 150 to 300 daily grams in the last 3 days.  holy crap, i'm hard all over.  Lots of chicken breasts and apples.  I'm feeling like a well oiled machines.  No mcd either.

Pictures or it didnt happen....


ps: you know what....scarp the picture part..

[240 is Back]

Pictures or it didnt happen....

chest definition definitely coming out a bit more, no?

[Euro-monster]

Thats a great shot man...you are definitely improving...

[suckmymuscle]

Assuming caloric intake remains constant, and that he reaches 400 grams protein by lowering carbs and fat accordingly, what gains would he see?  Any?

  None. He will actually lose weight. Protein is metabolically more costly than carbs, so if you ingest the same amount of calories but switch from getting most of it from carbs to getting most of it fom protein, then you will lose muscle and fat as the total amount of usable calories available to your body decreases. Also, most of the protein wil be turned in the liver to glucose by gluconeogenesis anyway, since the body can use only so much protein for maintaining nitrogen balance. Also, the amount of urea, uric acid, sulphones and other toxic by-products of protein metabolization will increase, thus decreasing overall health. What this guy is doing is both counterproductive and dangerous.

SUCKYMYUSCLE

[Tamer Razor]

Why are you asking me, when you have a google right under your nose? Try it, and you will find just those answers you like. If I do the search, you don't like what I find. You can try to figure that question out by thinking what happen to protein you eat. You seem to think that it goes right to your muscles and make them bigger, but that isn't all what is in to it. You body chop proteins to amino acids, which you can utilize in your system up to a certain amount. How about that extra amount of amino acids which you have eaten. Where that goes?  Where those protein farts comes and what make them smell so bad, like you has been decomposed inside? Well, If we simplify the subject to the max and beyond, all the way at the point where it is simple enough for you to understand, that is just what has happen. Excessive protein goes bad in you digestion and it produce gas, ammonia etc. in your system, and only history will prove what will be long term effect to all that, because there isn't any study about teen nerds who has too high protein intake. You guys always miss the big picture: It isn't just smoke, booze, pollution, yellow snow or excessive protein, but all that shit together in your system. What ever you eat today, will probably kill you 10 years from now, so if you want to live to see your first pubic hair, you must be very careful.

Again ...you obviously have no scientific background to make such uninformed statements base only in rumors ...please look at what you just said "Where those protein farts comes and what make them smell so bad, like you has been decomposed inside?" what is the biochemical association with gas and protein long term side effects?. Again is absolutely no Scientific data that concludes High amounts of Protein to deterioration of internal organs as you absurdly state. It is plenty of data that link high amounts of Carbs to heart disease,diabetes, strokes etc...It is sad how ill informed you are regarding the basics of nutrition. As I stated anything taking in execs is harmfull and that includes water in which compose over 75% of our base structure. But in base of your statement we should stop eating as eating itself causes oxidation and aging.  

[suckmymuscle]

healthy individuals with healthy kidneys experience no damage at all to kidneys with high protein intake

  What about the chronic effect of high protein consumption? Are you going to tell me that eating 500 grams of protein a day, day after day, for several years will have no negative effect on your kidneys? Get real. Even a Neanderthal caveman wouldn't eat 500 grams of protein a day, every day, for his entire life. Ths is nuts. He would eat 500 grams or maybe even 1,000 grams in one sitting when he would kill a mammoth or such, but then he would starve for the next week or so before eating again.

  The Human body was not designed to process huge amounts of protein consistently. We are primarilly frugivores and leaf eaters physiologically, and we only started to eat meat in the past 40,000 years or so when we went out of Africa to Eurasia where plant foods were rare and we had to become hunters to survive. Look at a Human's dental composition, amount of available pepsin and the lengh of our gastro-intestinal tract and it's obvious that we are not even designed to eat meat, let alone pounds a day, every day, for decades.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Tamer Razor]

[

 None. He will actually lose weight. Protein is metabolically more costly than carbs, so if you ingest the same amount of calories but switch from getting most of it from carbs to getting most of it form protein, then you will lose muscle and fat as the total amount of usable calories available to your body decreases. Also, most of the protein Will be turned in the liver to glucose by gluconeogenesis anyway, since the body can use only so much protein for maintaining nitrogen balance. Also, the amount of urea, uric acid, sulphones and other toxic by-products of protein metabolization will increase, thus decreasing overall health. What this guy is doing is both counterproductive and dangerous.

SUCKYMYUSCLE

I must disagree with you. Even though is a speculation in the Medical Community regarding the byproducts of Protein as you mention is no scientific data in any Medical our nutritional journal that concludes its harmfully effects, studies ESPECULATE that high amounts of protein MAY be harmfully to your liver due to byproduct formation and over-Enzimatic stimulation. It is thousand and thousand of studies the directly link high amounts of carbs to critical heath problems. Bottom line you have Essential amino-acids and Essential Fats...Have you heard of Essential Carbs???...

[Samourai Pizzacat]

High protein diets are bad, leading to ketosis.

1: Eur J Clin Nutr. 2007 May;61(5):575-81. Epub 2006 Nov 29.Click here to read Links
    Low-carbohydrate-high-protein diet and long-term survival in a general population cohort.
    Trichopoulou A, Psaltopoulou T, Orfanos P, Hsieh CC, Trichopoulos D.

    Department of Hygiene and Epidemiology, School of Medicine, University of Athens, Athens, Greece. antonia@nut.uoa.gr

    OBJECTIVE: We have evaluated the effects on mortality of habitual low carbohydrate-high-protein diets that are thought to contribute to weight control. DESIGN: Cohort investigation. SETTING: Adult Greek population. SUBJECTS METHODS: Follow-up was performed from 1993 to 2003 in the context of the Greek component of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and nutrition. Participants were 22 944 healthy adults, whose diet was assessed through a validated questionnaire. Participants were distributed by increasing deciles according to protein intake or carbohydrate intake, as well as by an additive score generated by increasing decile intake of protein and decreasing decile intake of carbohydrates. Proportional hazards regression was used to assess the relation between high protein, high carbohydrate and the low carbohydrate-high protein score on the one hand and mortality on the other. RESULTS: During 113 230 persons years of follow-up, there were 455 deaths. In models with energy adjustment, higher intake of carbohydrates was associated with significant reduction of total mortality, whereas higher intake of protein was associated with nonsignificant increase of total mortality (per decile, mortality ratios 0.94 with 95% CI 0.89 -0.99, and 1.02 with 95% CI 0.98 -1.07 respectively). Even more predictive of higher mortality were high values of the additive low carbohydrate-high protein score (per 5 units, mortality ratio 1.22 with 95% CI 1.09 -to 1.36). Positive associations of this score were noted with respect to both cardiovascular and cancer mortality. CONCLUSION: Prolonged consumption of diets low in carbohydrates and high in protein is associated with an increase in total mortality.

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Apr;16(2):129-52.
Related Articles, Links

    A review of issues of dietary protein intake in humans.

    Bilsborough S, Mann N.

    B Personal Pty Ltd., Melbourne, Victoria 3001, Australia.

Considerable debate has taken place over the safety and validity of increased protein intakes for both weight control and muscle synthesis. The advice to consume diets high in protein by some health professionals, media and popular diet books is given despite a lack of scientific data on the safety of increasing protein consumption. The key issues are the rate at which the gastrointestinal tract can absorb amino acids from dietary proteins (1.3 to 10 g/h) and the liver's capacity to deaminate proteins and produce urea for excretion of excess nitrogen. The accepted level of protein requirement of 0.8g x kg(-1) x d(-1) is based on structural requirements and ignores the use of protein for energy metabolism. High protein diets on the other hand advocate excessive levels of protein intake on the order of 200 to 400 g/d, which can equate to levels of approximately 5 g x kg(-1) x d(-1), which may exceed the liver's capacity to convert excess nitrogen to urea. Dangers of excessive protein, defined as when protein constitutes > 35% of total energy intake, include hyperaminoacidemia, hyperammonemia, hyperinsulinemia nausea, diarrhea, and even death (the "rabbit starvation syndrome"). The three different measures of defining protein intake, which should be viewed together are: absolute intake (g/d), intake related to body weight (g x kg(-1) x d(-1)) and intake as a fraction of total energy (percent energy). A suggested maximum protein intake based on bodily needs, weight control evidence, and avoiding protein toxicity would be approximately of 25% of energy requirements at approximately 2 to 2.5 g x kg(-1) x d(-1), corresponding to 176 g protein per day for an 80 kg individual on a 12,000kJ/d diet. This is well below the theoretical maximum safe intake range for an 80 kg person (285 to 365 g/d).
 

A few studies, enjoy!

[Lord Humungous]

400g is total over kill. One gram per lb of body weight is a good rule of thumb. Higher of your cutting and reducing your carbs. Expect more time on the shitter and more rock hard nuggets!

[Fatpanda]

Assuming caloric intake remains constant, and that he reaches 400 grams protein by lowering carbs and fat accordingly, what gains would he see?  Any?

weight would not change at all, but there would a repartitioning effect in favour of some muscle replacing of some fat.

[Tamer Razor]

"which may exceed the liver's capacity to convert excess nitrogen to urea."

If you read my post, I made it clear that some studies SPECULATE harmfully effects. I hope you are not using this as scientific data. You may soon run out of food that you can eat. It is EVIDENCE that high consuption of Carbs and Saturated fat to direct links to Heart Disease and other chronic Diseases.
I believe that the majority of the Medical community is in agreement in terms of the obesity, diabetes, heart disease epidemic this country finds itself is due to high consuption of carbs and saturated fats not Protein...

[just_a_pilgrim]

1 gram per pound of bodyweight is plenty. I have tried many different amounts, taking in more makes you more sluggish (because it's not all being digested) and you don't gain anymore muscle. It would hinder it IMO.

[just_a_pilgrim]

  What about the chronic effect of high protein consumption? Are you going to tell me that eating 500 grams of protein a day, day after day, for several years will have no negative effect on your kidneys? Get real. Even a Neanderthal caveman wouldn't eat 500 grams of protein a day, every day, for his entire life. Ths is nuts. He would eat 500 grams or maybe even 1,000 grams in one sitting when he would kill a mammoth or such, but then he would starve for the next week or so before eating again.

  The Human body was not designed to process huge amounts of protein consistently. We are primarilly frugivores and leaf eaters physiologically, and we only started to eat meat in the past 40,000 years or so when we went out of Africa to Eurasia where plant foods were rare and we had to become hunters to survive. Look at a Human's dental composition, amount of available pepsin and the lengh of our gastro-intestinal tract and it's obvious that we are not even designed to eat meat, let alone pounds a day, every day, for decades.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Going back that far, humans would store more bodyfat because of the scarsity of food, and not knowing when their next meal was coming. Nowadays while eating smaller meals more often (or so we should), bodyfat shouldn't be an issue. But people are lazy slobs.

[Samourai Pizzacat]

"which may exceed the liver's capacity to convert excess nitrogen to urea."

If you read my post, I made it clear that some studies SPECULATE harmfully effects. I hope you are not using this as scientific data. You may soon run out of food that you can eat. It is EVIDENCE that high consuption of Carbs and Saturated fat to direct links to Heart Disease and other chronic Diseases.
I believe that the majority of the Medical community is in agreement in terms of the obesity, diabetes, heart disease epidemic this country finds itself is due to high consuption of carbs and saturated fats not Protein...

You conveniently choose to inore the large N cohort study above?
You are now suggesting that I'm saying that we shouldn't eat protein.....
I'm saying that anything over say 2,5-3 g/kg protein is a waste of money and can be a potential health issue.
Let me put this straight, I'm not advocating  overconsumption of carbs, that's a whole different issue!
regardless of the dangers of large quantities of carbs, there are risks correlated with high protein diets. Rabbit disease is the extreme end of the spectrum, but illustrates the effect nicely.

[BIG_STI]

The only thing he would get from a extra 150 grams of protein a day is less money in his wallet.

[kyomu]

ABout protein. More is better.
Dont complicate that much.

We must discuss more about carbs intake instead.

[drkaje]

240,

It's hard to say because everyone responds differently. I always increase everything else along with protein. Maybe I'll try going apeshit with chicken breasts and tuna for a while along with pasta.

I doubt 2grams/kg pose a significant health risk to people that don't have some pre-existing metabolic stuff going on.

A lot of people feel you'd get better long term gains with the protein coming from whole foods. Others would say the shakes are more bioavailable.

[tbombz]

A lot of people feel you'd get better long term gains with the protein coming from whole foods. Others would say the shakes are more bioavailable.

depends on how you use the shakes.

[drkaje]

depends on how you use the shakes.

Protein powder is really easy and relatively cheap but I'm semi-convinced that a huge part of the benefit is in keeping you hydrated. The guys I've seen look better, longer and look consistently good tended to get most of their protein, carbs and fat from whole foods. It's possible, in a twisted sort of way, that whey protein is too bioavailable. We're one of the few animals that consumes milk after being weaned. Having the body take a little longer to break things down might be less work for the liver and may balance nitrogen at a more even rate.

[Fatpanda]

Protein powder is really easy and relatively cheap but I'm semi-convinced that a huge part of the benefit is in keeping you hydrated. The guys I've seen look better, longer and look consistently good tended to get most of their protein, carbs and fat from whole foods. It's possible, in a twisted sort of way, that whey protein is too bioavailable. We're one of the few animals that consumes milk after being weaned. Having the body take a little longer to break things down might be less work for the liver and may balance nitrogen at a more even rate.

you are correct. studies show that much of whey is metabolised when drank, while casein is not - this is due to the rapid cascade of aa entering the blood stream.

[tbombz]

its been shown several times that gram for gram whey leads to more nitrogen retention.

 the key would be to use the smallest possible amount to maximally stimulate protein synthesis, and repeat this over and over again throughout the day at the earliest possible time one could re stimulate protein synthesis.  

the reason i say one  would want to keep the smallest possble amount is because of recent study which showed whey protein increases myostatin activity= the more you drink the more mysotatin begins to regulate growth (myostatin limits the rate of muscle growth)...  so you want to use the smallest possible amount to get maximal stimulation of protein synthesis because the more whey protein you take, the more myostatin activity youll get.  which means once youve reached the point of maximal synthesis stimulation, adding more whey beyond this actually has a counterproductive effect (through myostatin activity)


not sure how this applies, if it does at all, to meat proteins.

[drkaje]

I'm gonna do a drastic diet thing and see what happens. Have to figure out what eating 300 g protein would look like.

[PJim]

Why do people think protein is the be all and end all of bodybuilding? Why can't "bodybuilders" just eat a well balanced diet and perhaps eat just a little more protein than that of a normal person? I'll tell you why, because it's the childish mentality that more is better. I'm sure I've read up somewhere that excess levels of protein can lower testosterone, although you may want to check that out for yourself. I always look at it from this perspective for naturals; if scientists and nutritional experts recommend say between 60 and 70 grams of protein a day for an average male with normal activity levels, why would weight training require the body to acquire three, four, five, hell even six and seven times that amount?! I could understand doubling that number and in some cases tripling that, but 400 grams? Crazy.

[drkaje]

Why do people think protein is the be all and end all of bodybuilding? Why can't "bodybuilders" just eat a well balanced diet and perhaps eat just a little more protein than that of a normal person? I'll tell you why, because it's the childish mentality that more is better. I'm sure I've read up somewhere that excess levels of protein can lower testosterone, although you may want to check that out for yourself. I always look at it from this perspective for naturals; if scientists and nutritional experts recommend say between 60 and 70 grams of protein a day for an average male with normal activity levels, why would weight training require the body to acquire three, four, five, hell even six and seven times that amount?! I could understand doubling that number and in some cases tripling that, but 400 grams? Crazy.

That suggestion is probably based upon a 70K man. Just looked on a low carb diet site and the suggestion was 74g protein for a 200Lb man.
1.5g/Kg is probably what most 'experts' would suggest but I sort of doubt hard gainers are lacking in protein only.

[240 is Back]

i'm stronger and haven't lost an ounce of size, even though I haven't lifted since last friday.  (I went to doc on monday for hurt shoulder, got a week of heat, rest, and advil)

unfortunately it's a little hard to drop a deuce today