Abortion doctor shot to death in church.

[Straw Man]

yes and no ive had this conversation with you more then once straw i actually have some logical basis for my beliefs where as you have never given any for yours...

life could begin when electrical activity starts in the brain as death is technically when electrical activity stops.

Life could begin at conception as this is when the process of life begins...

when do you believe life begins and why?

life begins when you're in my address book

seriously, I don't know exactly when life begins and neither do you.

that doesn't mean I have to adopt your default position

here is my belief

If you're against abortion then don't get one

mind your business and leave other law-abiding citizens alone

[24KT]

It depends on how many motre doctors get blasted.I notice not too mant are performing partial birth abortions as they are scared of the violence.After this m,more will think twice.

So Billy boy advocates domestic terrorism. Why am I not surprised? Someone needs to keep an eye on this one.
He's revealing himself to be extremely mentaly unstable... threatening violence over mere opinions. 

[Straw Man]

I think this commentary is several years old. 

Atheism Has Fueled Greatest Mass Murders In World History

By Rev. Louis P. Sheldon
Chairman, Traditional Values Coalition

As we approach Christmas, the one day a year that we set aside to celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, we are hearing noises among intellectuals and rock stars about the “dangers” of Christianity to world peace and cultural tolerance.

The most recent attack on organized religion came from homosexual rock star Sir Elton John, who thinks that organized religion—specifically Christianity—turns people into “hateful lemmings.” According to John, “I think religion has always tried to turn hatred towards gay people. Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays.” His solution: “ban religion completely, even though there are some wonderful things about it.”

Atheist Richard Dawkins, writing in his new book, “The God Delusion,” claims that many of the world’s conflicts around the world are due to the murderous religious impulses. Columnist Robert Kuttner claims that “The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries.”

Dinesh D’Souza, a Fellow at the Hoover Institution recently pointed out the glaring errors in such statements in the Christian Science Monitor.  He noted, for example, that the Spanish Inquisition sentenced to death approximately 10,000 individuals. Some historians claim another 100,000 died in jail.

One of liberalism’s favorite anti-Christian boogeyman is the Salem witch trials. How many actually died as a result of those trials: fewer than 25.

And what of the Crusades? Most Americans probably have a negative view of the Crusades as an attempt by Christians to conquer peaceful Muslims. The opposite is true. British historian Paul Johnson has observed: “The Crusades, far from being an outrageous prototype of Western imperialism, as taught in most schools, were a mere episode in a struggle that lasted 1,400 years, and were one of the few occasions when Christians took the offensive to regain ‘occupied territories’ of the Holy Land.” The Crusades were launched to regain land conquered by Muslims and to prevent Muslim armies from invading and conquering any more nations! It was a defensive war against Muslim imperialism.

The Christian-haters should turn their attentions to militant Islam and Atheism as the most serious dangers to the world.

The fact is that while religious wars have been fought for centuries, militant atheism has slaughtered more people than religious zealots ever have. The greatest mass murders in history have been committed not by Christians but by Communists Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung. More than 100 million have died at the hands of these militant atheists since the early 20th century.

And, one of the first genocides committed in the 20th century was by Turkish Muslims against Armenians between 1915 and 1918. An estimated 1.5 million Christian Armenians were killed during that slaughter.

Elton John, Robert Kuttner, Richard Dawkins and others may want to do more fact-checking before they launch into new tirades against Christianity.

The fact is that Christians have been at the forefront of expanding and defending human freedom around the globe ever since the First Century Church was founded. Christians, for example, were the ones who campaigned against the gladiator games in ancient Rome as well as against the slave trade in Britain and in the United States. It has been our Christian compassion that has led us into wars around the world to defend the downtrodden and to preserve freedom for individuals. (Alvin J. Schmidt, Ph.D., clearly explains this in his excellent history book, “How Christianity Changed The World.”) 

Elton John’s ability to speak freely and attack Christianity in Britain is due to the fact that Britain has based its laws upon the Ten Commandments and Christian principles about free speech and freedom of conscience. John might not fare so well under Sharia law nor would his music be freely marketed under a Communist dictatorship.

As we celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace, all of us should keep these truths in mind.

http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=2943

still as wrong as the day it was written.  

Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung were not killing in the name of atheism.  

They were dictators wiping out dissidents and perceived enemies

I know religious folk can't understand the distinction so we'll probably see this posted again and again

[Colossus_500]

seriously, I don't know exactly when life begins and neither do you.

have you ever seen an ultrasound in person? as early as 8 weeks even?

[24KT]

Life could begin at conception as this is when the process of life begins...

when do you believe life begins and why?

There's life in my toilet bowl, ...that doesn't mean I'm not gonna flush the little fvckers out to sea. 

[Straw Man]

have you ever seen an ultrasound in person? as early as 8 weeks even?

no

look, if I were in the situation where someone I was involved with was contemplating abortion I wouldn't take the decision lightly at all and I don't know what I would do.  It wouldn't even matter what "I" would do because I'll never be pregnant.  These issues are personal and if you think life begins at conception then that's your perogative.  Neither your nor I have the right to tell anyone how to conduct their life.  

We as a human race have very slippery morals concerning "life".  We allow people to die daily from simple ailments.  We allow our government to kill thousands of people in our name.  We allow people on this planet to die of hunger every day.  We're talking about fully formed human beings who will experience real and totally unnecessary pain, suffering and ultimately death.   Lectures about the sanctity of life or religious supersticion over something we don't even understand don't have much influence on me.  You of course are free to believe whatever you want.

[loco]

Actually, I had previously placed an exception around Hitler and Stalin, which you didn't notice.

Yeah sure, you asked tonymctones to find you one, just one atheist who has killed religious people, but you conveniently place an exception around non other than Stalin?  How convenient!

Let's say we go with your premise... So you're saying you found like 4 people who did it because of Godlessness... How many have done it FOR religion?

Just four?  Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are all atheists and they murdered millions.  Do you really believe that they did that on their own?

Your exceptions are proving the rule.

What exceptions?  It's a historical fact that atheists like the ones mentioned on this thread have killed millions more in the name of secular ideologies than religious people have killed in the name of their religion. 

[loco]

I think this commentary is several years old. 

Atheism Has Fueled Greatest Mass Murders In World History

By Rev. Louis P. Sheldon
Chairman, Traditional Values Coalition

As we approach Christmas, the one day a year that we set aside to celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, we are hearing noises among intellectuals and rock stars about the “dangers” of Christianity to world peace and cultural tolerance.

The most recent attack on organized religion came from homosexual rock star Sir Elton John, who thinks that organized religion—specifically Christianity—turns people into “hateful lemmings.” According to John, “I think religion has always tried to turn hatred towards gay people. Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays.” His solution: “ban religion completely, even though there are some wonderful things about it.”

Atheist Richard Dawkins, writing in his new book, “The God Delusion,” claims that many of the world’s conflicts around the world are due to the murderous religious impulses. Columnist Robert Kuttner claims that “The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries.”

Dinesh D’Souza, a Fellow at the Hoover Institution recently pointed out the glaring errors in such statements in the Christian Science Monitor.  He noted, for example, that the Spanish Inquisition sentenced to death approximately 10,000 individuals. Some historians claim another 100,000 died in jail.

One of liberalism’s favorite anti-Christian boogeyman is the Salem witch trials. How many actually died as a result of those trials: fewer than 25.

And what of the Crusades? Most Americans probably have a negative view of the Crusades as an attempt by Christians to conquer peaceful Muslims. The opposite is true. British historian Paul Johnson has observed: “The Crusades, far from being an outrageous prototype of Western imperialism, as taught in most schools, were a mere episode in a struggle that lasted 1,400 years, and were one of the few occasions when Christians took the offensive to regain ‘occupied territories’ of the Holy Land.” The Crusades were launched to regain land conquered by Muslims and to prevent Muslim armies from invading and conquering any more nations! It was a defensive war against Muslim imperialism.

The Christian-haters should turn their attentions to militant Islam and Atheism as the most serious dangers to the world.

The fact is that while religious wars have been fought for centuries, militant atheism has slaughtered more people than religious zealots ever have. The greatest mass murders in history have been committed not by Christians but by Communists Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung. More than 100 million have died at the hands of these militant atheists since the early 20th century.

And, one of the first genocides committed in the 20th century was by Turkish Muslims against Armenians between 1915 and 1918. An estimated 1.5 million Christian Armenians were killed during that slaughter.

Elton John, Robert Kuttner, Richard Dawkins and others may want to do more fact-checking before they launch into new tirades against Christianity.

The fact is that Christians have been at the forefront of expanding and defending human freedom around the globe ever since the First Century Church was founded. Christians, for example, were the ones who campaigned against the gladiator games in ancient Rome as well as against the slave trade in Britain and in the United States. It has been our Christian compassion that has led us into wars around the world to defend the downtrodden and to preserve freedom for individuals. (Alvin J. Schmidt, Ph.D., clearly explains this in his excellent history book, “How Christianity Changed The World.”) 

Elton John’s ability to speak freely and attack Christianity in Britain is due to the fact that Britain has based its laws upon the Ten Commandments and Christian principles about free speech and freedom of conscience. John might not fare so well under Sharia law nor would his music be freely marketed under a Communist dictatorship.

As we celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace, all of us should keep these truths in mind.

http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=2943

Great post, Beach Bum!   

I particularly like these:

"The Christian-haters should turn their attentions to militant Islam and Atheism as the most serious dangers to the world."

"Elton John’s ability to speak freely and attack Christianity in Britain is due to the fact that Britain has based its laws upon the Ten Commandments and Christian principles about free speech and freedom of conscience. John might not fare so well under Sharia law nor would his music be freely marketed under a Communist dictatorship."

"Christians, for example, were the ones who campaigned against the gladiator games in ancient Rome as well as against the slave trade in Britain and in the United States"

[tonymctones]

life begins when you're in my address book

seriously, I don't know exactly when life begins and neither do you.

that doesn't mean I have to adopt your default position

here is my belief

If you're against abortion then don't get one

mind your business and leave other law-abiding citizens alone

again my stances actually have some logic behind them with your stances which isnt a stance there is no logic so ill go ahead and say mines a little more credible then yours at this moment...you might wanna go ahead and think about it b/c with no real cut off date then whats the difference between abortion and infantcide?

[tonymctones]

There's life in my toilet bowl, ...that doesn't mean I'm not gonna flush the little fvckers out to sea. 

LOL you have got to be shitting me(no pun intended) comparing a unborn child to shit floating in a toilet  ive heard it all from you jag...im disappointed 

flushing your toilet is never considered a crime either so thats a horrible analogy...murder is a crime and if the child is technically alive at 2 weeks or 6 or 8 isnt that murder?

[BM OUT]

So Billy boy advocates domestic terrorism. Why am I not surprised? Someone needs to keep an eye on this one.
He's revealing himself to be extremely mentaly unstable... threatening violence over mere opinions. 

Threatening violence over opinions?No,I threaten violence when some punk ass little bitch gets on the internet and spews out personal insults.These same bunch of fags would never ever say a dam thing to my face.I know that you libs think we conservatives are just there to take shit and if we respond WE are the ones that are nuts,sorry,I dont fall into that group.

[loco]

That is not so.  Stalin didn't kill these people because they weren't atheists, he killed them because they were a powerful entity and therefore a threat. He killed atheist intellectuals, artists and journalists as they were a threat as well. He also killed around 6 million farmers because he wanted their land.  Kind of pompous of you to single out a few hundred thousand victims as being somehow "special." He even lifted the ban on the church once the Germans invaded, since he was aware that people fight and die more easily when they have God backing them.

Sure Deedee, first you said that Stalin specifically targeted these "few" hundred thousand religious people just to punish them for his own religious upbringing:
 

Both Stalin and Hitler grew up with terribly abusive father figures, mixed with religious reinforced corporal punishment and intolerance. Stalin had a physical deformity to top it all off. Hitler probably had sexual deficiencies. You could basically say that both grew up to despise the religious upbringing and sought to punish all those who laid it on them when they were young.

Now you say that Stalin did not target religious people because of their theism, but simply murdered all he saw as a threat, including these "few" hundred thousand religious people.   

You just make stuff up as you go.

This nutjob you've posted up as an example is worthless.  The nutjob in question was off his meds and proclaimed himself "God." He offed people at random, he didn't specifically kill people who didn't belong to his religion.

First of all, he did not proclaim himself "God."  He proclaimed himself a "god-like atheist."  Stop your lies.

And what's your point anyway?  He was an athesist nut job who murdered many people.  Why did you not apply your same logic about this guy to the nut job who murdered this one late term abortion doctor?  Pretty dishonest of you.

The example of Jeff Dahmer is silly as well and doesn't prove anything. Murderers always find something to blame once they're in prison. And besides, if the "godlessness" of his household was at fault, how do you explain Stalin, Hitler, or Ted Bundy for that matter.  Both Stalin and Hitler grew up immersed in religion, and both considered joining the clergy. Bundy was raised by a member of the clergy. Fail.

No Deedee, you are the one who needs to explain Jeff Dahmer.  You said that Stalin killed religious people because of his own religious upbringing.  What about Jeff Dahmer then, who had a Godless upbringing?  What's your excuse for him?

Besides, what's your point?  Stalin and Jeff Dahmer both committed many murders as atheists, not as Christians.  Stalin, according to you, was a Christian in his childhood.  Yet Stalin did not murder until after he became an atheist.  Jeff Dahmer was first an atheist and a serial killer, but then he became a Christian and he killed nobody after that.

Having said all this, my dear Christian-hater, I do not believe that atheism leads to murders, just as I don't believe that Christianity leads to murders.  Which one of Jesus Christ's teachings would lead somebody to murder an abortion doctor?  None.

A nut job is a nut job, whether theist or atheist.

It is dishonest to pretend that this abortion doctor murderer counts against theism, but that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Finnish nut job and Jeff Dahmer do not count against atheism.

[Straw Man]

again my stances actually have some logic behind them with your stances which isnt a stance there is no logic so ill go ahead and say mines a little more credible then yours at this moment...you might wanna go ahead and think about it b/c with no real cut off date then whats the difference between abortion and infantcide?

What is your logic? 

You say life begins at conception but that's just an arbitrary judgement on your part.  There is nothing at conception that we woudl call life.

I'll pick an arbitrary point and say Life begins at birth or life begins 171 days after the formation of an embryo.

there, now I've picked an arbitrary point just like you have.  do you feel better now?

[Straw Man]

LOL you have got to be shitting me(no pun intended) comparing a unborn child to shit floating in a toilet  ive heard it all from you jag...im disappointed 

flushing your toilet is never considered a crime either so thats a horrible analogy...murder is a crime and if the child is technically alive at 2 weeks or 6 or 8 isnt that murder?

there is no "child" at 2 weeks or even 6-8 weeks so no it's not murder

[loco]

Hi Deedee.

Long time no see.

I could be mistaken, but I too don't remember seeing Deedee on the Politics or Religion boards for a while, except for only the times when she responds to my posts to argue and to insult me.   

One time she said that she wasn't going to respond to me anymore, but she came right back and responded to my post.

This is my last post. I find this thread childish.

Hahahaha.. once again loco, you’ve sucked me into these useless emotion-laden discussions, even though I said I wouldn’t.

 

I guess she's obsessed with me, and I am not flattered about it. 

Deedee is not nice like STella!   

[OzmO]

You dug up comments of hers from June of last year in response to Hedge?

Wow, I think you may be obsessed too.   

[tonymctones]

What is your logic? 

You say life begins at conception but that's just an arbitrary judgement on your part.  There is nothing at conception that we woudl call life.

I'll pick an arbitrary point and say Life begins at birth or life begins 171 days after the formation of an embryo.

there, now I've picked an arbitrary point just like you have.  do you feel better now?

actually if you go back and read that was only one of the possible dates...and since at conception the process of life has begun yes there is a logical point that can be discussed...

Lets go off the electrical activity though since you seem to want something a tad more tangible...electrical activity in the brain is the determining factor of death so would it not be logical to make that the determining factor of life? again since you really have no position and no basis of logic for your postion ill go ahead again and say mine is more credible...again whats the difference between abortion and infantcide if the date you pick is merely arbitrary such as yours is?

[tonymctones]

there is no "child" at 2 weeks or even 6-8 weeks so no it's not murder

so when does a fetus become a living being? you refuse to give me even your theory on this im not asking for a definite answer but till now all youve said is iono...this leaves the door open for infantcide, justifiable homicide etc...dont you understand? if your simply putting an arbitrary date on it i can logically apply a arbitrary date as well lets say 50 yrs ill be over in a bit to abort you 

[loco]

You dug up comments of hers from June of last year in response to Hedge?

Wow, I think you may be obsessed too.   

OzmO, there is a SEARCH button at the top of the board.  Have you ever used it before?  It just takes a few second to type the right key words, then hit Search.  That's all.   

[OzmO]

OzmO, there is a SEARCH button at the top of the board.  Have you ever used it before?  It just takes a few second to type the right key words, then hit Search.  That's all.   

You dug searched up comments of hers from June of last year in response to Hedge?

Wow, I think you may be obsessed too.  

fixed.

[loco]

fixed.

I do this all the time, and so do other getbiggers.  How am I being obsessed for using the Search function to find previous posts, which takes only a few seconds if you know what you are doing?   

[tu_holmes]

Yeah sure, you asked tonymctones to find you one, just one atheist who has killed religious people, but you conveniently place an exception around non other than Stalin?  How convenient!

Just four?  Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are all atheists and they murdered millions.  Do you really believe that they did that on their own?

What exceptions?  It's a historical fact that atheists like the ones mentioned on this thread have killed millions more in the name of secular ideologies than religious people have killed in the name of their religion. 

Again, none of those people did it to promote the atheist agenda... Not a single one.

[BM OUT]

there is no "child" at 2 weeks or even 6-8 weeks so no it's not murder

Tiller was doing abortions until the 9th month,hence the term,partial birth abortion.Is that ok?

[Deedee]

Sure Deedee, first you said that Stalin specifically targeted these "few" hundred thousand religious people just to punish them for his own religious upbringing:
 
Now you say that Stalin did not target religious people because of their theism, but simply murdered all he saw as a threat, including these "few" hundred thousand religious people.   

You just make stuff up as you go.

First of all, he did not proclaim himself "God."  He proclaimed himself a "god-like atheist."  Stop your lies.

And what's your point anyway?  He was an athesist nut job who murdered many people.  Why did you not apply your same logic about this guy to the nut job who murdered this one late term abortion doctor?  Pretty dishonest of you.

No Deedee, you are the one who needs to explain Jeff Dahmer.  You said that Stalin killed religious people because of his own religious upbringing.  What about Jeff Dahmer then, who had a Godless upbringing?  What's your excuse for him?

Besides, what's your point?  Stalin and Jeff Dahmer both committed many murders as atheists, not as Christians.  Stalin, according to you, was a Christian in his childhood.  Yet Stalin did not murder until after he became an atheist.  Jeff Dahmer was first an atheist and a serial killer, but then he became a Christian and he killed nobody after that.

Having said all this, my dear Christian-hater, I do not believe that atheism leads to murders, just as I don't believe that Christianity leads to murders.  Which one of Jesus Christ's teachings would lead somebody to murder an abortion doctor?  None.

A nut job is a nut job, whether theist or atheist.

It is dishonest to pretend that this abortion doctor murderer counts against theism, but that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Finnish nut job and Jeff Dahmer do not count against atheism.

Horse crap. I said Stalin's obtuse view of all in black and white, his authoritarian outlook and sense of himself as the divine arbiter over the lives of others was probably inspired by the pattern of dogmatic religious teachings of his youth. Atheists don't believe anyone is divine or better than another. Historians agree with me, and there's a big difference between that and what you imply I said.  You even posted yourself that the Church back then was viewed as a powerful, even secular institution. That's what he destroyed. He didn't give a shit if some filthy, ignorant peasants wanted to say blessings over their borscht and potato latkes. The fact that he lifted the ban on the church once the Germans got there prove it was nothing personal.  That's very different from the way the church tortured and murdered heretics in the past, and the way islamic theocracies deal with individuals who don't fall into religious lines today.

The Finnish nutjob killed people at random. For all you know, the victims may have been atheists, and completely agreed with his take on evolution. That has nothing to do with killing "for atheism." You even quoted his word, "god-like.." Atheism does not ascribe qualities to any man as being above another in terms of divine destiny. His ramblings were ridiculous. He was also not taking his meds for depression, an illness which often leads to distorted thinking and paranoia. We don't consider schizophrenics who go on murderous rampages because God or heavenly angels told them to murder "the whores of babylon" or whatever, as killing for religion either. These are mentally ill, delusional people.  If you want to count those, the list of murder for religion just grew by the thousands.

Experts say serial killers are born, not made. Their relationships with overbearing mothers and non-existant or distant fathers coupled with an overly-active imagination and excessive fantasizing moves their sociopathy into the murderous range. I'm going with that, thanks.  Murderers always seem to find God in prison, and there's no reason to believe many of them are even sincere.  Jeff Dahmer no longer killed anyone once he got to prison. You don't say? Amazing. Again. Fail.

[Straw Man]

Tiller was doing abortions until the 9th month,hence the term,partial birth abortion.Is that ok?

YES it is in cases of where the mothers life is at risk