Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!

[pellius]

Of course the "inalienable rights" come from God, that being life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.  However, the Founders never intended a christian govt or any govt influenced by religious figures for that matter.  
 

I believe you are correct. The Founders never intended a Christian government or any religious based government. But I do believe the values they had were influence by the Judea/Christian ethic. If you disagree, where did their values come from?

I like the second part of your question about religion being involved in government. I have to go right now but hopefully I can get back to that.

[MCWAY]

The bottom line that you have to live with, deal with, cry over or pray about... (who cares anyway)

The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA was not founded with Christian views in mind. That assumption is a Nationalist one which often confuses the Bible with the Bill of Rights. Educated people - which would exclude you - have long known as it should be that our early Patriots and Inventors were more Scientists and Scholars than they were Religious. The Constitution was written with full knowledge of what happens when you let " religion " guide a government.

Utter baloney! Once again, the Founding Fathers and their religious affiliations are easily accesible, courtesy of the link I provided.

So once again for the benefit of the slow ones on board...

--God was purposely left out of the Constitution
--Jesus - the icon of Christianity - was left out of the Constitution
--America has no established church
-- Every religion and sect known to Man is at home here;
-- Religious and scriptural arguments are invalid in our courts;
-- Religious tests for public office are barred by the Constitution.
--Church and state is separated

America is not a Christian nation.

Pretending it is simply because of your own insecurities and lack of independent thought process is not going to make it so.

Baby Jeebus is weeping over your stupidity right now.  

Once again, for the benefit of the spineless and clueless Lurker.

- God does NOT need to be mentioned in the Constitution, for our country to be a Christian nation.

- The very men who signed that Constitution and helped pen it stated, point-blank, that this IS a Christian nation.

- Our federal Supreme Court made ruling that this WAS/IS a Christian nation, based on that Constitution, with virtually NO protest from the Founding Fathers or the people.

- Your STUPID attempt to assert a secular nation, using the Treaty of Tripoli, got skewered. The reason for the wording of Article 11 of that treaty was clearly explained. Less than a decade later, Article 11 GOT DROPPED.

- We have a ruling from the Supreme Court, nixng that claim about "separation of church and state". It's been standing for nearly 30 years.

- We have rulings from that Court IN THE NEW MILLENIUM, that kills your "separation of church and state" flap, from the Ten Commandments in courtrooms, to public school vouchers being used at Christian schools.

So, once again, the facts put your claims down, expose you for the goof that you are, and even shows your utter cowardice, regarding your addressing the initial items brought to you, regarding a certain former Alaskan governor.

[MCWAY]

Of course the "inalienable rights" come from God, that being life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.  However, the Founders never intended a christian govt or any govt influenced by religious figures for that matter.      

I still have no idea why any religious person would want their religion involved with the govt on any level or vice versa.  It baffles me that anyone can not understand the fact that many people came here fleeing religious oppression due solely from the fact that in Europe the governments were too involved with religion in the first place.  The pilgrims wanted freedom of religion, that being to be left the hell alone from the govt.  

Lets keep it that way.      

Exactly!! That's why, as Dr. King stated, the church is the conscience of the state, not its master (as in theocracies, depicted in Muslim countries) nor its slave (as in European countries).

[MCWAY]

Exactly.  But common sense isn't effective for people with the Jebus Infection.

Combining church and state is absolutely what the Constitution did not do.

Still running off at the mouth, I see. Before you lecture anyone about common sense, how about explaining why you LEFT OUT THE FACTS, that the Treaty of Tripoli was worded, with the intent of keeping American ships safe from attacks from Muslim pirates, ALONG WITH the fact that Article 11 (the words around which you used as proof to support your silly argument about America not being a Christian nation) GOT DROPPED FROM THE TREATY a mere 8 years later.

[pellius]

It baffles me that anyone can not understand the fact that many people came here fleeing religious oppression due solely from the fact that in Europe the governments were too involved with religion in the first place.        

I guess I can take a crack at this real quick: I think it was more vice versa, it was religion that was too involved in government in the first place. Again, that's why I think the Founders were very adamant about having a secular government. Therefore what one may consider immoral and a sin will not necessarily be considered illegal. Adultery for example, a violation of the 7th Commandment and a sin in Christianity. But I certainly don't want people arrested for that offense unless it was my wife then I would insist on nothing less than execution.

 But that still does not negate that their values were based on the Judea/Christian ethic.


OK, now I'm late........

[Soul Crusher]

I believe you are correct. The Founders never intended a Christian government or any religious based government. But I do believe the values they had were influence by the Judea/Christian ethic. If you disagree, where did their values come from?

I like the second part of your question about religion being involved in government. I have to go right now but hopefully I can get back to that.

The reason I am adamant against religion being mixed with government is as follows:

1.  Government is inherently a mechanism of control and combining that with religion is a toxic mix in the wrong hands.  

2.  Religion should not be corrupted by the evils of govt.  

3.  We have thousands of years of evidence that people in government who believe that their religion empowers them to take a certain action often times will do so regardless of the laws or constitution.  

4.  There may be a time in the future, whether we like it or not, when Christians will not be the majority and we need to have in place a secular govt where the rights of minorities are not trampeled, that being Christians or any other religion for that matter.

5.  Religious doctrine often conflicts with constitutional rights.  To me constitutional rights are far more important overall.  Free Speech etc are an example.  I dont want religious people dictating my viewing or listening choices, as repulsive as it might be, as those lead to far worse abuses.    

6.  Religions get corrupted when they are involved with Government.  

    

[pellius]

The reason I am adamant against religion being mixed with government is as follows:

1.  Government is inherently a mechanism of control and combining that with religion is a toxic mix in the wrong hands.  

2.  Religion should not be corrupted by the evils of govt.  

3.  We have thousands of years of evidence that people in government who believe that their religion empowers them to take a certain action often times will do so regardless of the laws or constitution.  

4.  There may be a time in the future, whether we like it or not, when Christians will not be the majority and we need to have in place a secular govt where the rights of minorities are not trampeled, that being Christians or any other religion for that matter.

5.  Religious doctrine often conflicts with constitutional rights.  To me constitutional rights are far more important overall.  Free Speech etc are an example.  I dont want religious people dictating my viewing or listening choices, as repulsive as it might be, as those lead to far worse abuses.    

6.  Religions get corrupted when they are involved with Government.  

    

I can't argue with any of those well reasoned points.

I think the argument is when forming the basis of a society where does one turn to determine the values, what is right and what is wrong, what is legal and what is illegal, to build a moral foundation of a fair and just society.

It seems to me that the basic foundation of values was the Judea/Christian ethic. If not, then where did our founders get their value system and moral foundation?

I don't know if I like the "In God we Trust" stamp or swearing on the Bible when taking office or testifying in court. But it may be an indication that there may have been a slight hint of Christian influence in our culture.

[blacken700]

Christopher hitchens explains it .i think he's quite a bit smarter than most of us here and  a hell of alot smarter then you mcway

[LurkerNoMore]

Once again, have to repeat for the slow ones...

--God was purposely left out of the Constitution
--Jesus - the icon of Christianity - was left out of the Constitution
--America has no established church
-- Every religion and sect known to Man is at home here;
-- Religious and scriptural arguments are invalid in our courts;
-- Religious tests for public office are barred by the Constitution.
--Church and state is separated

America is not a Christian nation.

Pretending it is simply because of your own insecurities and lack of independent thought process is not going to make it so.

Baby Jeebus is weeping over your stupidity right now. 

Attempting to argue otherwise only shows what a true idiot you are.  But feel free, we already know that.

[BM OUT]

Christopher hitchens explains it .i think he's quite a bit smarter than most of us here and  a hell of alot smarter then you mcway

Geeze,Hitchens may be smart but the guy is a stone cold drunk.I dont think Id take his word for anything.

[MCWAY]

Once again, have to repeat for the slow ones...

Attempting to argue otherwise only shows what a true idiot you are.  But feel free, we already know that.

So, the coward has slithered out of his corner, yet again. It's been nearly two days, and our bastion of bravery has YET TO OWN UP to that foolish mistake of his, using the Treaty of Tripoli, to prop his pitiful argument.

Let's hear it, O Spineless one, or are you in the mood for another helping of Foot Dijon?

Let's hear you play down the Founding Fathers, who stated POINT-BLANK that this is a Christian Nation, the Supreme Court rulings that said as much (with nary a peep of opposition).


Normally, I like chicken. But, I may make an exception in your case, Lurker.

Maybe you'll get a clue and stop making lame-brained arguments (i.e. claiming I didn't cite the Founding Fathers, when their quotes are sitting there, in PLAIN SIGHT for all to see. Or hinging your argument about the USA not being a Christian nation, on a treaty, the crafters of which scratched that language from it 8 years later).

[LurkerNoMore]

It's hilarious watching the Jebus freaks cling to their delusions in an effort to cover up their own insecurities in light of the facts. 

--God was purposely left out of the Constitution
--Jesus - the icon of Christianity - was left out of the Constitution
--America has no established church
-- Every religion and sect known to Man is at home here;
-- Religious and scriptural arguments are invalid in our courts;
-- Religious tests for public office are barred by the Constitution.
--Church and state is separated

America is not a Christian nation.

Pretending it is simply because of your own insecurities and lack of independent thought process is not going to make it so.

Baby Jeebus is weeping over your stupidity right now. 

[MCWAY]

It's hilarious watching the Jebus freaks cling to their delusions in an effort to cover up their own insecurities in light of the facts. 

Come one, El Pollo Loco, please explain to the audience WHY you used the Treaty of Tripoli, to bolster your claims of America not being a Christian nation, WHEN the FOUNDING FATHERS TOOK ARTICLE 11 OUT of the TREATY.

Explain why you accused me of not citing the Founding Fathers, to support my case, when I have their quotes sitting there, in BLACK AND WHITE, which states that we are Chrisitan nation, along with a website link (citing the Christian denominations of the Fathers).

I'll leave the clinging to delusions to you, which you will likely still do, even if the the Democrats get BEAT DOWN in November (but that's another issue).

[blacken700]

mcway I'm curious are you slightly retarded ,i think you hung around pat Robison, jerry fallwell a Little to long

[Soul Crusher]

mcway I'm curious are you slightly retarded ,i think you hung around pat Robison, jerry fallwell a Little to long

Bro - you voted for and shill for Obama.  You shilled for the Stim Bill and HCR, both failures.  You are not one speak on this issue or any other for that matter.

[blacken700]

hey broooo you don't know who i voted for ,just because i have a little more sense than you and can see that palin is a train wreck waiting to happen hey if McCain would have picked someone other then that misfit,instead he pandered to the religious right.

[MCWAY]

mcway I'm curious are you slightly retarded ,i think you hung around pat Robison, jerry fallwell a Little to long

This from the guy who gets his information from the red-headed stepchild of cable news, MSNBC?

Now that's rich.

All I've done is expose Lurker for the mindless and spineless coward that he is.

He will not address the fact that the Founding Fathers declared that America is a Christian nation, NOT EVEN with the quotes of the Founding Fathers, saying such in black-and-white.

Like a certified fool, he used the Treaty of Tripoli as proof that America is not a Christian nation, citing Article 11 of that treaty, DESPITE the fact that the language (and there's controversy regarding whether that was actually in the version that the Arabs got) GOT DROPPED from the Treaty, just eight years later. And the man who signed it DECLARED that this is a Christian nation.

And, as if that weren't enough, there are at least three Supreme Court rulings, that cite America as a Christian nation (with little-to-no challenge from the Founding Fathers or the populace). You would think that a country that was supposed OH-SO-SECULAR would screech at such a ruling.

Basically, Lurker has reverted to posting utter foolishness, bereft of facts, loaded with empty rhetoric, all in a attempt to hide the fact that, to this day, he CANNOT answer the challenge of showing exactly why one Sarah Palin is unqualified to be president, but Barack Obama is.

[LurkerNoMore]

Good thing about facts is that they never change.

So once again for the benefit of the slow ones on board...

--God was purposely left out of the Constitution
--Jesus - the icon of Christianity - was left out of the Constitution
--America has no established church
-- Every religion and sect known to Man is at home here;
-- Religious and scriptural arguments are invalid in our courts;
-- Religious tests for public office are barred by the Constitution.
--Church and state is separated

America is not a Christian nation.

Pretending it is simply because of your own insecurities and lack of independent thought process is not going to make it so.

Baby Jeebus is weeping over your stupidity right now. 

[LurkerNoMore]

mcway I'm curious are you slightly retarded

Slightly?

Typical of Christians to be so overpowered by their own delusions that simple facts and logic can't penetrate the bubble.

[MCWAY]

Slightly?

Typical of Christians to be so overpowered by their own delusions that simple facts and logic can't penetrate the bubble.

You mean simple facts, such as:

- The Founding Fathers stated that this was a Christian nation (from which you run, like a coward)?

-  The Founding Fathers DROPPED Article 11 from the Treaty of Tripoli, which you SWORE was a glaring testament to the USA not being a Christian nation (still running, yellow-streaked one)?

- The multiple rulings from the Supreme Court, citing the USA as a Christian nation (keep clucking, Lurker!!)?

Good thing about facts is that they never change.

Yep!! And it is those facts that expose you for the spineless wimp, that you are.

Edit - And, at the risk of kicking a man when he's down, here are YET MORE QUOTES from the guy Lurker claimed used the Treaty of Tripoli to declare that America is not a Christian nation:

It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship. - John Adams, "Thoughts on Government", 1776

The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If `Thou shalt not covet' and `Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free. - John Adams, "A Defense of the American Constitutions", 1787

[LurkerNoMore]

Facts are awesome.  Too bad idiot Christians fear them.

So once again for the benefit of the slow ones on board...

--God was purposely left out of the Constitution
--Jesus - the icon of Christianity - was left out of the Constitution
--America has no established church
-- Every religion and sect known to Man is at home here;
-- Religious and scriptural arguments are invalid in our courts;
-- Religious tests for public office are barred by the Constitution.
--Church and state is separated

America is not a Christian nation.

Pretending it is simply because of your own insecurities and lack of independent thought process is not going to make it so.

Baby Jeebus is weeping over your stupidity right now.

[MCWAY]

Facts are awesome.  Too bad idiot Christians fear them.

We love facts, especially when they make cowards like you look even SILLIER than normal.

When the Constitution was submitted to the American public, "many pious people" complained that the document had slighted God, for it contained "no recognition of his mercies to us . . . or even of his existence." The Constitution was reticent about religion for two reasons: first, many delegates were committed federalists, who believed that the power to legislate on religion, if it existed at all, lay within the domain of the state, not the national, governments; second, the delegates believed that it would be a tactical mistake to introduce such a politically controversial issue as religion into the Constitution. The only "religious clause" in the document--the proscription of religious tests as qualifications for federal office in Article Six--was intended to defuse controversy by disarming potential critics who might claim religious discrimination in eligibility for public office.

That religion was not otherwise addressed in the Constitution did not make it an "irreligious" document any more than the Articles of Confederation was an "irreligious" document. The Constitution dealt with the church precisely as the Articles had, thereby maintaining, at the national level, the religious status quo. In neither document did the people yield any explicit power to act in the field of religion. But the absence of expressed powers did not prevent either the Continental-Confederation Congress or the Congress under the Constitution from sponsoring a program to support general, nonsectarian religion."

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming of Lurker's buffoonery and cowardice.

[LurkerNoMore]

Silly Christians sure gnash their teeths over living in a secular nation it seems.  Why is it secular?  Oh that's right...

So once again for the benefit of the slow ones on board...

--God was purposely left out of the Constitution
--Jesus - the icon of Christianity - was left out of the Constitution
--America has no established church
-- Every religion and sect known to Man is at home here;
-- Religious and scriptural arguments are invalid in our courts;
-- Religious tests for public office are barred by the Constitution.
--Church and state is separated

America is not a Christian nation.

Pretending it is simply because of your own insecurities and lack of independent thought process is not going to make it so.

Baby Jeebus is weeping over your stupidity right now. 

[MCWAY]

Silly Christians sure gnash their teeths over living in a secular nation it seems.  Why is it secular?  Oh that's right...

So why aren't any American Christians gnashing their teeth, living in the USA? OOOOOHHHHH!!!!! Because the FOUNDING FATHERS declared that America is a Christian Nation.


Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people.

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty. - Samuel Chase, Supreme Court Justice, giving the majority opinion in the case, "Runkel v. Winemiller", 1799.

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams, 1798

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” - John Jay, 1816

Now who should I believe, Hmmmm......The Founding Fathers, or a gutless buffoon who can't get his fact straight (i.e. the Treaty of Tripoli)?

Founding Fathers, or gutless buffoon?

Founding Fathers, or spineless punk?

Founding Fathers, or crackpot delusionist?

Decisions, DECISIONS!!!  

[LurkerNoMore]

We should rename this thread Lone Christian Takes Stupid To A New Level With Delusions

So once again for the benefit of the slow ones on board...

--God was purposely left out of the Constitution
--Jesus - the icon of Christianity - was left out of the Constitution
--America has no established church
-- Every religion and sect known to Man is at home here;
-- Religious and scriptural arguments are invalid in our courts;
-- Religious tests for public office are barred by the Constitution.
--Church and state is separated

America is not a Christian nation.

Pretending it is simply because of your own insecurities and lack of independent thought process is not going to make it so.

Baby Jeebus is weeping over your stupidity right now.