The Official 2010 NBA Playoffs Thread

[Dos Equis]

Anyone that says jordan is behind Kobe and Magic are clearly biased...Hell even magic and bird have been quoted as saying Jordan was the best...

What great player will put himself at the time of the list?  Aside from Snack O'Neal. 

Like I said earlier, it's subjective.  I'm sure many people think Jordan was the greatest ever.  Some think it's Magic.  Some think it's Wilt.  I might have a different opinion if I watched Wilt, Bill Russell, or Oscar Robertson play. 

Here is someone who has them ranked Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, Bird.  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/66751-nbas-top-25-greatest-players-of-all-time

This one says Jordan, Robertson, Bird.  http://basketball.suite101.com/article.cfm/top_nba_players_of_all_time

This one says Wilt, Jordan.  http://sportales.com/basketball/the-greatest-nba-player-ever/

Here is one that says Jordan, Dr. J, Kareem.  http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/219063/the_10_greatest_nba_players_of_all.html?cat=14

I think the main "bias" people have is generational.  You see that in discussions about football.  I had a discussion with an older guy who thinks Jim Brown is the greatest football and athlete of all time.  He's from Brown's era.   

[Earl1972]

Pippen a better player than Kobe?  That's laugh out loud funny.    

i think it's laughable to have kobe as an all time great based on his 4 titles, he would have 1 if it wasn't for shaq

he also only has 1 mvp title, not enough to be in the same class as jordan

shaq was the finals mvp each time, when shaq left la kobe couldn't even get them to the playoffs and every average nba team makes the playoffs

i think kobe is better than pippen, but if we are going to rank players based on their titles than he isn't in pippen's class, pippen had just as much if not more to do with 6 titles than kobe winning titles with shaq

and like i said tim duncan has been a far better player this decade than kobe, by far the best player on 4 title teams, he's too quiet for the talking heads to put him in the all time elite class

if kobe is considered a top 7 player all time as of today, than than makes him the most overrated player ever

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[Earl1972]

and yes beach bum you have a history of being biased

you also think the nfl was better in the 80's because that is when your favorite team was winning super bowls

kobe is a great player but he was lucky he ended up with a great organization like the lakers, otherwise he would probably be another allen iverson

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[Dos Equis]

i think it's laughable to have kobe as an all time great based on his 4 titles, he would have 1 if it wasn't for shaq

he also only has 1 mvp title, not enough to be in the same class as jordan

shaq was the finals mvp each time, when shaq left la kobe couldn't even get them to the playoffs and every average nba team makes the playoffs

i think kobe is better than pippen, but if we are going to rank players based on their titles than he isn't in pippen's class, pippen had just as much if not more to do with 6 titles than kobe winning titles with shaq

and like i said tim duncan has been a far better player this decade than kobe, by far the best player on 4 title teams, he's too quiet for the talking heads to put him in the all time elite class

if kobe is considered a top 7 player all time as of today, than than makes him the most overrated player ever

E

I don't have Kobe as an all time great solely because of his four rings.  He's the best scorer I've ever seen in the NBA.  He's a great defender and is first team all NBA pretty much ever year.  He has led his team in assists from the 2 guard spot pretty much every year as a starter.  He rebounds.  He's durable.  His worth ethic is incredible.  He's the best clutch player I've seen.  And he wins.  

I won't really argue with anyone who thinks Duncan is a great player, or who thinks he has been a better player than Kobe.  I disagree, but it's at least debatable.  

But you didn't really answer my question:  what is it that you saw from 2000-2003 that led you to conclude Kobe did nothing but ride Shaq's coattails?  

[Dos Equis]

and yes beach bum you have a history of being biased

you also think the nfl was better in the 80's because that is when your favorite team was winning super bowls

kobe is a great player but he was lucky he ended up with a great organization like the lakers, otherwise he would probably be another allen iverson

E

Hogwash.  Quit making stuff up.  I have never said there was better football in the 80s because my favorite team was winning Super Bowls.  lol.  They had better teams in the 80s and 90s, which included the Dallas Cowboys, who I hated then and hate now.  But feel free to just make it up as you go along if it makes you feel better.  

Kobe is lucky he played with Shaq.  Shaq is lucky Phil coached the Lakers.  Duncan is lucky he had Popovich.  Jordan is lucky he had Pippin and Phil.  Magic is lucky he had Kareem and Worthy.  Bird is lucky he had McHale and the Chief.  Etc., etc.  

[Earl1972]

But you didn't really answer my question:  what is that you saw from 2000-2003 that led you to concluded Kobe did nothing but ride Shaq's coattails? 

kobe was a great player than but shaq was clearly the guy

if iverson was shaq's teammate they still would've won 3 titles in a row, heck iverson was better than kobe when they met in the finals

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[Earl1972]

Hogwash.  Quit making stuff up.  I have never said there was better football in the 80s because of my favorite team was winning Super Bowls.  lol.  They had better teams in the 80s and 90s, which included the Dallas Cowboys, who I hated then and hate now.  But feel free to just make it up as you go along if it makes you feel better.  

Kobe is lucky he played with Shaq.  Shaq is lucky Phil coached the Lakers.  Duncan is lucky he had Popovich.  Jordan is lucky he had Pippin and Phil.  Magic is lucky he had Kareem and Worthy.  Bird is lucky he had McHale and the Chief.  Etc., etc.  

you at least said you enjoyed the game more then, having what you felt were more dominant teams

clearly you thought that because your team was the most dominant of them all

i think popovich is lucky he had duncan, the other guys you mentioned still had great success without thier teammate/coach

kobe missed the playoffs without phil/shaq

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[Dos Equis]

kobe was a great player than but shaq was clearly the guy

if iverson was shaq's teammate they still would've won 3 titles in a row, heck iverson was better than kobe when they met in the finals

E

O.K.  I won't ask a third time, but I thought maybe you saw something that I didn't.  What I saw during that championship run was two dominant players.  One of the things that made the Lakers so good during that stretch was both Shaq and Kobe required a double team.  Shaq literally couldn't be stopped.  No one could guard Kobe one-on-one.  And Kobe was the closer in the fourth quarter.  Kobe was also the better defender.  Heck he even rebounded better than Shaq IMO.  Probably half of Shaq's rebounds came off opponents missed FTs. 

Iverson better than Kobe?  Uh . . . . no.   

Who knows what Shaq would have done with Iverson, or what Kobe would have done with Duncan, etc.? 

[Dos Equis]

you at least said you enjoyed the game more then, having what you felt were more dominant teams

clearly you thought that because your team was the most dominant of them all

i think popovich is lucky he had duncan, the other guys you mentioned still had great success without thier teammate/coach

kobe missed the playoffs without phil/shaq

E

Yes I enjoyed the games (NFL and NBA) more in the 80s and 90s because teams were better.  And yes two of those teams are my favorites (Niners and Lakers).  But I also enjoyed watching the Celtics, Pistons, Sixers, Cowboys, and Redskins.  I'm one of those who likes to see teams loaded with talented players who play at the highest levels.  If those teams happen to be the Lakers and Niners, I like it even more.

A "biased" fan wouldn't even acknowledge that the Dallas Cowboys of the late 80s/early 90s are better than any team in the NFL today.  Or that the Celtics of the 80s were a better team than the 2010 Lakers.    

So there, I've stated my position again.  You and continue to distort it if you want.  

You're wrong about Kobe.  He took the Lakers to the playoffs twice without Phil/Shaq.  In fact, he took a lineup of Kwame Brown, Odom, Luke Walton, and Smush Parker to the playoffs.  I'd say that's pretty incredible.  

[Earl1972]

O.K.  I won't ask a third time, but I thought maybe you saw something that I didn't.  What I saw during that championship run was two dominant players.  One of the things that made the Lakers so good during that stretch was both Shaq and Kobe required a double team.  Shaq literally couldn't be stopped.  No one could guard Kobe one-on-one.  And Kobe was the closer in the fourth quarter.  Kobe was also the better defender.  Heck he even rebounded better than Shaq IMO.  Probably half of Shaq's rebounds came off opponents missed FTs. 

Iverson better than Kobe?  Uh . . . . no.   

Who knows what Shaq would have done with Iverson, or what Kobe would have done with Duncan, etc.? 

well shaq was the clear cut finals mvp all 3 years...

iverson was better than kobe 2000 - 2002 during the lakers title run

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[Earl1972]

You're wrong about Kobe.  He took the Lakers to the playoffs twice without Phil/Shaq.  In fact, he took a lineup of Kwame Brown, Odom, Luke Walton, and Smush Parker to the playoffs.  I'd say that's pretty incredible. 

didn't they miss the 05 playoffs without shaq and phil?

i'm not impressed by playoff appearances in the nba, any average team makes it

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[Dos Equis]

well shaq was the clear cut finals mvp all 3 years...

iverson was better than kobe 2000 - 2002 during the lakers title run

E

Yes Shaq was the Finals MVP, but he wouldn't have gotten to the Finals or won, without Kobe and Phil.  Keep in mind that Phil came in and took almost the exact same team that couldn't win the year before and won three straight titles. 

A player who rides coattails is someone like Adam Morrison, who might get his second championship ring this year. 

Oh c'mon.  I can't even debate Iverson vs. Kobe.  I won't do it.  [fingers trembling at the keyboard]   

[Dos Equis]

didn't they miss the 05 playoffs without shaq and phil?

i'm not impressed by playoff appearances in the nba, any average team makes it

E

They missed the playoffs one year (that's how they got Bynum in the lottery) and made the playoffs two years. 

I'm impressed by Kobe taking some pretty marginal players to the playoffs. 

[Earl1972]

Yes Shaq was the Finals MVP, but he wouldn't have gotten to the Finals or won, without Kobe and Phil.  Keep in mind that Phil came in and took almost the exact same team that couldn't win the year before and won three straight titles. 

A player who rides coattails is someone like Adam Morrison, who might get his second championship ring this year. 

Oh c'mon.  I can't even debate Iverson vs. Kobe.  I won't do it.  [fingers trembling at the keyboard]   

shaq also took the magic to the finals, helped the heat win a title

either way, shaq was by far the best player on those laker championship teams


iverson 2001 > kobe 2001

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[Earl1972]

They missed the playoffs one year (that's how they got Bynum in the lottery) and made the playoffs two years. 

I'm impressed by Kobe taking some pretty marginal players to the playoffs. 

so you're impressed by tracy mcgrady making the playoffs too?

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[Dos Equis]

shaq also took the magic to the finals, helped the heat win a title

either way, shaq was by far the best player on those laker championship teams


iverson 2001 > kobe 2001

E

The Magic who got swept in the Finals?  And the Heat who won in spite of, not because of, Shaq?  He was terrible in the Finals with the Heat and was completely carried by D-Wade, with a lot of help from the officials who gave D-Whistle the Jordan treatment. 

But I'm not arguing Shaq wasn't a great player.  He was the most dominant big man in the game during his prime.  I was addressing your contention that Kobe rode Shaq's coattails.  Neither the stats nor the game film support your conclusion.  I suspect you didn't watch Shaq and Kobe play from 2000 to 2003.  Or did you?   

[Dos Equis]

so you're impressed by tracy mcgrady making the playoffs too?

E

McGrady doesn't impress me.

[Earl1972]

The Magic who got swept in the Finals?  And the Heat who won in spite of, not because of, Shaq?  He was terrible in the Finals with the Heat and was completely carried by D-Wade, with a lot of help from the officials who gave D-Whistle the Jordan treatment.  

But I'm not arguing Shaq wasn't a great player.  He was the most dominant big man in the game during his prime.  I was addressing your contention that Kobe rode Shaq's coattails.  Neither the stats nor the game film support your conclusion.  I suspect you didn't watch Shaq and Kobe play from 2000 to 2003.  Or did you?  

that was way before shaq's prime and would kobe get that magic team to the finals?  i know shaq wasn't the man with the heat, just like kobe wasn't the man with the lakers

all i'm saying is kobe wasn't the best player on 3 of his title teams, people need to stop using his titles in their ridiculous argument comparing him to the great MJ, he is not MJ and he will have to win at least 3 more for me to consider it a valid comparison

that will be 4 titles without shaq, 2 more mvp's would help too

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[Earl1972]

McGrady doesn't impress me.

why not? he's been to the playoffs with marginal players

E

[2ND COMING]

lol.  How old were you when Magic and Bird were playing?  

eh..you dont have to be jack ramsay to speak on players before your generation.

how old were you when wilt was dominating?

im sure you still recognize him as an all time great.

jordan has all the accolades and rings with not nearly the surplus of HOF talent like magic did.

And there is really no argument that puts kobe ahead of jordan imo.

[Mr Nobody]

Celtics will win sorry reg.

[Dos Equis]

that was way before shaq's prime and would kobe get that magic team to the finals?  i know shaq wasn't the man with the heat, just like kobe wasn't the man with the lakers

all i'm saying is kobe wasn't the best player on 3 of his title teams, people need to stop using his titles in their ridiculous argument comparing him to the great MJ, he is not MJ and he will have to win at least 3 more for me to consider it a valid comparison

that will be 4 titles without shaq, 2 more mvp's would help too

E

I have no idea if Kobe would have led the Magic to the Finals. 

Regarding Kobe riding Shaq's coattails, here are the regular season stats from 2000-2003:

2000
Shaq 29.7 points, 13.7 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 3.0 blocks, .5 steals
Kobe 22.5 points, 6.5 rebounds, 4.9 assists, .9 blocks, 1.6 steals

2001
Shaq  28.7 points, 12.7 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 2.8 blocks, .6 steals
Kobe  28.5 points, 5.9 rebounds, 5.0 assists, .6 blocks, 1.7 steals

2002
Shaq  27.2 points, 10.7 rebounds, 3.0 assists, 2.0 blocks, .6 steals
Kobe  25.2 points, 5.5 rebounds, 5.5 assists, .4 blocks, 1.5 steals

2003
Shaq  27.5 points, 11. 1 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 2.4 blocks, .6 steals
Kobe  30.0 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.9 assists, .8 blocks, 1.6 steals

I haven't looked at the playoff numbers, but I'm sure they follow the same trend.  I watched the games.  They were both dominant players.  There is no factual basis to say Kobe rode Shaq's coattails.

So, the numbers don't support your contention.  Maybe there is something you saw during the games?  Did you watch them play? 

[Dos Equis]

why not? he's been to the playoffs with marginal players

E

Because McGrady is a talented player who has never been a team leader.  He doesn't play defense.  He disappears in big games.  He has never been a winner.  He is not tough.  He is not durable.   

But what does this have to do with Kobe?  Just to recap, you said Kobe never went to the playoffs without Phil/Shaq.  When I showed you that wasn't accurate and that he took some pretty marginal players to the playoffs, you then brought up McGrady.  Not sure how this relates to Kobe making the playoffs with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown?

[Earl1972]

I have no idea if Kobe would have led the Magic to the Finals. 

Regarding Kobe riding Shaq's coattails, here are the regular season stats from 2000-2003:

2000
Shaq 29.7 points, 13.7 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 3.0 blocks, .5 steals
Kobe 22.5 points, 6.5 rebounds, 4.9 assists, .9 blocks, 1.6 steals

2001
Shaq  28.7 points, 12.7 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 2.8 blocks, .6 steals
Kobe  28.5 points, 5.9 rebounds, 5.0 assists, .6 blocks, 1.7 steals

2002
Shaq  27.2 points, 10.7 rebounds, 3.0 assists, 2.0 blocks, .6 steals
Kobe  25.2 points, 5.5 rebounds, 5.5 assists, .4 blocks, 1.5 steals

2003
Shaq  27.5 points, 11. 1 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 2.4 blocks, .6 steals
Kobe  30.0 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.9 assists, .8 blocks, 1.6 steals

I haven't looked at the playoff numbers, but I'm sure they follow the same trend.  I watched the games.  They were both dominant players.  There is no factual basis to say Kobe rode Shaq's coattails.

So, the numbers don't support your contention.  Maybe there is something you saw during the games?  Did you watch them play? 

he wasn't the best player on championship teams, which kills the "kobe is on jordan's level" argument

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[Dos Equis]

eh..you dont have to be jack ramsay to speak on players before your generation.

how old were you when wilt was dominating?

im sure you still recognize him as an all time great.

jordan has all the accolades and rings with not nearly the surplus of HOF talent like magic did.

And there is really no argument that puts kobe ahead of jordan imo.

Aren't you about 20 years old?  That means you weren't alive during the golden years of the NBA.  I asked about your age because of what I mentioned earlier:  people often have a generational "bias."  That is, they are more persuaded by what they see, not what they hear about.  

For example, because you're pretty young, "fo, fo, and fo" probably wouldn't mean anything to you (unless you Goggle it).  You probably didn't watch the Bad Boys play.  The LA Express is foreign.  The magic that Bird worked on the court wouldn't mean much.  If I were to tell you Dennis Rodman was pound-for-pound the best rebounder and defender I've ever seen, you wouldn't have a frame of reference.  Or if I said Malone was an absolute beast on the boards, you'd probably think I was talking about Karl and not Moses.  If said the Ice Man was one of the greatest scorers in NBA history, you likely wouldn't know anything about that.  

That's why I don't have players like Wilt, Russell, Robertson, etc. on my list.  I didn't see them play.  Because of this, I don't ridicule people who say Wilt is the greatest player of all time, when they actually watched him play.  

It has actually been pretty fun to introduce my kids to the players I grew up watching.  Youtube is a great thing.