Nationally, 60% Favor Letting Local Police Stop and Verify Immigration Status

[Soul Crusher]

Read the damn law.  A valid is presumptive proof. 

[Eyeball Chambers]

So does everyone need to carry their birth certificate in Arizona?  Drivers license isn't really proof of citizenship...

[loco]

Read the damn law.  A valid is presumptive proof. 

What?  A valid what is presumptive proof?

[loco]

So does everyone need to carry their birth certificate in Arizona?  Drivers license isn't really proof of citizenship...

Exactly.  A drivers license is neither proof of citizenship nor is it proof of legal permanent residence.

[Soul Crusher]

Read the law.  Yes it is.

[240 is Back]

Obama has a drivers licence.  Doesn't seem like that's enough proof of citizenship...

[phreak]

Read the damn law.  A valid is presumptive proof. 

[loco]

Read the law.  Yes it is.

You have any idea how many illegal immigrants in the US have a valid drivers license?

Until just recently, many states provided drivers license study guides in Spanish.  The written test itself was offered in Spanish.  I'm sure there are states that still do this.  

[phreak]

if you completely destroy 1 business per day - decimate them with $10k fines for every single illegal they knowingly hired...

and you plaster it all over the news...

You'll have enough housewives telling their man "we're going to lose our business... just hire some legal guys".

I mean, "To catch a predator" only busted probably 70 or 80 pedophiles total - but they scared a million into leaving kids alone.

Second - they may find some work in Mex - many will leave.  Not all.  But many will.  You drop the 15 mil current number to 10 mil and you've accomplished more than any president in history!

The question is an economic one: how flexible is the demand for cheap labor? How many businesses would go under if they were forced to replace all their illegals with legal residents? How many businesses would simply choose to risk it, because hiring expensive (and unmotivated) americans would put them out of business instantly?

  Prosecute some drug users harder, and the drug trade shrinks

How's this been working out in the last few decades?

[tonymctones]

The question is an economic one: how flexible is the demand for cheap labor? How many businesses would go under if they were forced to replace all their illegals with legal residents? How many businesses would simply choose to risk it, because hiring expensive (and unmotivated) americans would put them out of business instantly?

How's this been working out in the last few decades?

you haent been here long so Ill help you out a tad, you cant rationalize with 240 he will squirm and silverline enough so that he his views are in the grey area...either that or he will just ignore your post 

[tu_holmes]

Actually, a drivers license in some states is proof of residency and citizenship.

In the Commonwealth of Virginia, you can not get a drivers license without showing a social security card and birth certificate.

It wasn't always that way, but it is now.

[Eyeball Chambers]

Actually, a drivers license in some states is proof of residency and citizenship.

In the Commonwealth of Virginia, you can not get a drivers license without showing a social security card and birth certificate.

It wasn't always that way, but it is now.

Looks like any illegal can obtain an Ohio drivers license, I bet it's the same in most other states.  

Driver License Rules & Regulations
Ohio Administrative Code Section 4501:1-1-19, 21, 22

In order to obtain any Ohio Temporary Instruction Permit Card (TIPIC), Driver License, Commercial Driver License, State of Ohio Identification (ID) card, Motorcycle, Moped license, the customer must present documents to prove all of the following five elements: (1) legal first name, middle name, OR middle initial, and current last name; (2) date of birth; (3) Social Security Number (SSN), if ever assigned; (4) U.S. citizenship OR U.S. legal presence; and (5) resident street address in Ohio.

To obtain a duplicate of any of the above, the applicant must sign a statement that the original was lost or stolen, present one primary OR one secondary document, match the photograph on file and all five elements in the BMV system. If any of the five elements do not match the BMV system, the applicant must present an acceptable document to prove the mismatched element.

An Ohio TIPIC, driver license, CDL, ID card, motorcycle or moped license either current or expired for less than six months is sufficient proof of all elements for any BMV transaction (including co-signers) and no further proof is necessary.

Only original documents or a copy bearing an original certification by the issuing authority are acceptable. Uncertified copies or copies of certified documents are not acceptable. Failure to provide two acceptable identification documents and proof of residency in Ohio shall result in the denial of the application.

Residency Documents:

(Must Include Ohio Residency Street Address)

If the primary and secondary documents presented do not establish the applicant's current Ohio residence street address, the applicant shall present additional documents containing the applicant's name and current address within Ohio to establish that address to the satisfaction of the registrar or deputy registrar. A post office box or other mail box address is not acceptable.

The following documents shall be acceptable if the applicant's current Ohio residence street address is included in the document. Only original documents or a copy bearing an original certification by the issuing authority are acceptable. Uncertified copies or copies of certified documents are not acceptable. Failure to provide two acceptable identification documents and proof of residency in Ohio shall result in the denial of the application.


                            * Insurance Policy - Any current and valid automobile liability, premises liability, or life insurance policy.
                            * Bank Statement - Any checking or savings account statement, including on-line statements, dated within the last sixty days.
                            * Child Support Check Stub - From the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services with the name and address of the applicant.
                            * Income Tax Return Filing - Copy of federal or Ohio income tax return filing not more than eighteen months old, with proof of filing.
                            * Certified Copy of Court Order - Must be court order of probation, order of parole, or order of mandatory release.
                            * School Records - Must contain satisfactory proof of identity, Ohio residency, and relationship of the parent or guardian to the child applicant.
                            * Certified Statement of Residency - In the case of a dependent child, the Bureau of Motor Vehicles (BMV) may accept a certified statement of residency from a child's parent or guardian, signed in the presence of a BMV official. Satisfactory proof of identity, Ohio residency, and relationship of the the parent or guardian to the child applicant is also required.
                            * Certified Statement of Residency - In the case of a married person, the BMV may accept a certified statement of residency from the applicant's spouse, signed in the presence of a BMV official. Satisfactory proof of identity, Ohio residency, and marital relationship is also required.
                            * Installment Loan Contract - From a bank or other financial institution.
                            * Major Credit Card Bill - Statement – or major retail store credit card statement with Ohio street address.
                            * Mortgage Account - Or proof of home ownership.
                            * Ohio Certificate Of Title
                            * Ohio Mail-in Renewal Notice
                            * Valid Ohio Voter Registration Card
                            * Paycheck Stub - Issued within the last six (6) months.
                            * Professional License - Issued by an Ohio government agency.
                            * Property Tax Bill - Or receipt of payment.
                            * Hunting/Fishing License - Ohio resident hunting or fishing license valid during the current or previous year.
                            * Sales Tax or Business License - Must show Ohio residence address.
                            * Selective Service Registration Acknowledgement Card
                            * Certification of Residency - From a nursing home or homeless shelter on a form prescribed by the registrar for that purpose.
                            * Utility Bill - From an electric, telephone, water, sewer, cable, satellite, heating oil, or propane provider issued within the last sixty days.
                            * Concealed Carry Permit - Valid concealed carry weapons permit.
                            * Public Assistance Check Stub - Check Stub, food stamp card, or letter on government letterhead (issued within the last 12 months), issued by a government public assistance agency.
                            * Social Security Administration Document – With Ohio street address
                            * TSA letter
                            * Other - Any other genuine and reliable document approved BMV Registrar (not deputy registrar).

[240 is Back]

remember during the fal 07 dem debates - hilary took heat when Gov Spitzer of NY was gonna give out licenses to illegals.... "What else can he do" was her response.

[tu_holmes]

Maybe I'm reading it differently... If you have to have a SSN and U.S. Citizenship or legal presence how can an illegal get one?

[loco]

Maybe I'm reading it differently... If you have to have a SSN and U.S. Citizenship or legal presence how can an illegal get one?

If an immigrant has a green card, he can get both a SSN and a drivers license, without US citizenship.

Not long ago, a foreign student could get a SSN.  The SS card just says "Not valid for work.".   That means he could get a drivers license in Virginia.  And if his student visa expires and he decides to stay in the US illegally, now he's an illegal immigrant with a Virginia drivers license.

No, a drivers license is no proof of US citizenship or legal US residence.

[tu_holmes]

You make a valid point I suppose... Is there any way to avoid that though?

I mean... when someone comes into the country legally, you have to expect they will try to stay legal.

[loco]

You make a valid point I suppose... Is there any way to avoid that though?

I mean... when someone comes into the country legally, you have to expect they will try to stay legal.

No, many people enter the US legally, then stay illegally.  It happens all the time.

If you pass laws to require proof of legal US residence, you are going to have to require all American citizens to carry proof as well.  The drivers license won't work.

[tu_holmes]

So then we need national ID card and that seems very fascist.

[Soul Crusher]

There is not one silver bullet to this problem.  

[tonymctones]

You make a valid point I suppose... Is there any way to avoid that though?

I mean... when someone comes into the country legally, you have to expect they will try to stay legal.

this bill is meant to target those who enter the country illegally...yes there are ppl who enter this country legally than stay passed their visa but there are FAR MORE that enter this country illegally

it can work you simply pass a law that says only legal residents can obtain a drivers license otherwise you get a temporary one...

not rocket science...

[tonymctones]

There is not one silver bullet to this problem.  

exactly and as we sit and debate this bull shit they are having anchor babies out the ass sooner or later they will have enough legals raised by illegals to get their politicians to pass amnesty or worse open border...........

[tu_holmes]

this bill is meant to target those who enter the country illegally...yes there are ppl who enter this country legally than stay passed their visa but there are FAR MORE that enter this country illegally

it can work you simply pass a law that says only legal residents can obtain a drivers license otherwise you get a temporary one...

not rocket science...

That's what I said earlier though... I thought you already had to be legal to get the drivers license in the first place.

[loco]

this bill is meant to target those who enter the country illegally...yes there are ppl who enter this country legally than stay passed their visa but there are FAR MORE that enter this country illegally

it can work you simply pass a law that says only legal residents can obtain a drivers license otherwise you get a temporary one...

not rocket science...

Is that happening in Arizona now?  How long before it happens in Arizona?  How long before it happens in all 50 states?  It won't work unless all states pass such law for obtaining a drivers license.

[loco]

That's what I said earlier though... I thought you already had to be legal to get the drivers license in the first place.

You don't have to.  Not in all states anyway.

[tu_holmes]

How many states do not require that?

Most states have done so since 9-11 to be honest.