True Adonis (Adam) has been completely exposed...

[Van_Bilderass]

I"m with you here.  I don't need pages of cut & paste studies to tell me otherwise, as I've been doing it for 15+ years.  In the winter I eat whatever I want, pizza, burgers, ice cream, cookies, etc. and usually only two meals in the latter part of the day.  In the summer, I UP my calories and eat only lean proteins & complex carbs over 6-8 meals.  The difference in my body composition is the only proof I need.  More calories of the right foods and I get super lean.

The cool part is, that science is finally catching up to what bodybuilders have known for years, and Connelly is at the forefront of this.

So in the winter you meticulously record calorie intake? A guess isn't good enough.

Even Bill Phillips, a Connelly fan, when he did his BS Body of Life transformations, said he ate a slice of pizza a day as part of his diet as it didn't matter since he was in a deficit, eating plenty of protein, etc.

Of course it seems like you are eating more when all you're eating is bland "bodybuilding foods". Sheer volume of food isn't the same as energy density. I'm sure you realize how much brown rice and chicken you have to eat to equal the calories of a pizza with an ice cream dessert. Think!

[wavelength]

It is absolutely shocking to me how many "body builders" on this site are talking about losing/gaining "weight".  I thought that was something only fat housewives talked about.  It is this obsession with "weight" that fuels the worthless diet industry.  "Lose 15lbs in just 10 days!" is the typical BS you see on all these magic pills and programs.  Never mind that all the weight is water or that the more egregious ones cause you to go into starvation mode resulting in muscle wasting and fat preservation.

If you want "lose weight", I suppose that caloric restriction is a good, albeit short-term way to lose "weight", that is until you rebound and gain it all back.

If you want to lose "fat" and preserve "muscle", forget about eating brownies, pizza and donuts.

Wrong and there is absolutely no scientific proof that you can't lose weight with optimal body composition if you just get enough protein and reduce calories.

You can easily get ripped eating everything you want in moderation.

[MindSpin]

So in the winter you meticulously record calorie intake? A guess isn't good enough.

Even Bill Phillips, a Connelly fan, when he did his BS Body of Life transformations, said he ate a slice of pizza a day as part of his diet as it didn't matter since he was in a deficit, eating plenty of protein, etc.

Of course it seems like you are eating more when all you're eating is bland "bodybuilding foods". Sheer volume of food isn't the same as energy density. I'm sure you realize how much brown rice and chicken you have to eat to equal the calories of a pizza with an ice cream dessert. Think!

Oh Brother.  A typical day for me, when I'm in junk food mode is skip breakfast, a protein bar for lunch, pizza or some form of pasta for dinner and a late night bowl of cereal. 

When I'm in a good eating mode, a typical day looks like this:
Meal 1 - 2 ProMR packets with TB almond butter, scoop of Progenex Growth & scoop of Progenex Recovery;
Meal 2 - 12 eggs, 1cp oatmeal;
Meal 3 - two chicken breasts, small potato;
Meal 4 - 2 ProMR packets with TB almond butter, scoop of Progenex Growth & scoop of Progenex Recovery
Meal 5 - two chicken breasts and vegetables;
Meal 6 - 8oz flank steak.
**I will snack on walnuts & almods throughout the day.

You're right.  I'm not counting calories, but why don't you count them for me and tell me when I'm eating more

[tbombz]

Oh Brother.  A typical day for me, when I'm in junk food mode is skip breakfast, a protein bar for lunch, pizza or some form of pasta for dinner and a late night bowl of cereal.  

When I'm in a good eating mode, a typical day looks like this:
Meal 1 - 2 ProMR packets with TB almond butter, scoop of Progenex Growth & scoop of Progenex Recovery;
Meal 2 - 12 eggs, 1cp oatmeal;
Meal 3 - two chicken breasts, small potato;
Meal 4 - 2 ProMR packets with TB almond butter scoop of Progenex Growth & scoop of Progenex Recovery
Meal 5 - two chicken breasts and vegetables;
Meal 6 - 8oz flank steak.
**I will snack on walnuts & almods throughout the day.

You're right.  I'm not counting calories, but why don't you count them for me and tell me when I'm eating more

everything in bold and striked thorugh could be changed to anything else of equal caloric value and results wuld be equal.

[Fatpanda]

everything in bold and striked thorugh could be changed to anything else of equal caloric value and results wuld be equal.

i agree

[MindSpin]

everything in bold and striked thorugh could be changed to anything else of equal caloric value and results wuld be equal.

If you're a casual athlete I would agree.  However, if you're pushing your body to extreme levels, then the added EFAs and the growth factors from the Progenx powders do give you a very noticeable enhancement.  I use the ProMr because it's the only MRP on the market that has that creamy texture that makes me fill satiated.  A lot like the old MET-Rx.

[tbombz]

If you're a casual athlete I would agree.  However, if you're pushing your body to extreme levels, then the added EFAs and the growth factors from the Progenx powders do give you a very noticeable enhancement.  I use the ProMr because it's the only MRP on the market that has that creamy texture that makes me fill satiated.  A lot like the old MET-Rx.

nothing works better than what is found in food. progenx might be the best supplement on the market.. but in the end it is a supplement, and the best it can possibly do is be an equal substitute for food.

food (adequate nutrients + cals in vs. cals out)
+
 training (intense training with adequate recovery time and periodization to avoid platues)
+
drugs (steroids, preferably test..)

it doesnt get any more complex than that.. anyone saying anything different is mislead or misleading or just outright ignorant

[MindSpin]

nothing works better than what is found in food. progenx might be the best supplement on the market.. but in the end it is a supplement, and the best it can possibly do is be an equal substitute for food.

food (adequate nutrients + cals in vs. cals out)
+
 training (intense training with adequate recovery time and periodization to avoid platues)
+
drugs (steroids, preferably test..)

it doesnt get any more complex than that.. anyone saying anything different is mislead or misleading or just outright ignorant

yes and no.  I agree, the right foods are vital.  However, there are growth factors found in milk, that do some pretty tricky stuff in the body.  Unfortunately, they are not available in high enough quantities.  Connelly has not only identified these growth factors, but also found a way to retrieve and concentrate them.  That's what is in Progenex. 

BTW, this all has nothing to do with the "calorie is a calorie" debate.  Regardless of whether or not you use supplements, you still have to get high quality protein in your system throughout the day, and avoid simple sugars, if you want to get lean & build muscle.

[Smanjh]

  Regardless of whether or not you use supplements, you still have to get high quality protein in your system throughout the day, and avoid simple sugars, if you want to get lean & build muscle.

 

Why is it either or with you? I bet he has isolated the growth factors in milk, double

How much more proof do you need that you only need adequate protein, carbs, and fat? Why do you think you have to do the mundane BB diet in order to get somewhere? Is it because Cutler told you so?

I have the opposite experience. If I try any bodybuilding pseudo science bullshit and not come in at the same caloric range, I stand still and make no progress. Lower calories and make sure I get enough of everything through stuff I like=progress either with adding muscle or losing fat. Raise calories slightly until I see some fat, then drop them slightly for optimal muscle gain.

You only gain a few ounces of real muscle a week, not pounds upon pounds. No need to expect that.

[dr.chimps]

TA!> That sounsd like a Guegere. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

/yeass.i ll teleleeee their indi- zzze3dinrorouh. 

;ll tsr drr-,doium.

[no one]

i get a kick out of how some in this thread are saying it's an unfair debate with connelly, how it's on his home turf and adonis won't be prepared etc.

if adonis is right, then he's right. how much more simple does it have to be?

the only reason he doesn't take this challenge is because he knows he can't prove his stance, and connelly will make him look like a fool without his google-fu to fall back on.

[YoungBlood]

  Connelly has not only identified these growth factors, but also found a way to retrieve and concentrate them.  That's what is in Progenex. 

Is this the same stuff you said was in the "prototype" pills you gave to me & several other GetBig members? The ones you said were too expensive to put into production and the formula would probably never see the light of day? I loved taking those things.

[Van_Bilderass]

yes and no.  I agree, the right foods are vital.  However, there are growth factors found in milk, that do some pretty tricky stuff in the body.  Unfortunately, they are not available in high enough quantities.  Connelly has not only identified these growth factors, but also found a way to retrieve and concentrate them.  That's what is in Progenex.  

BTW, this all has nothing to do with the "calorie is a calorie" debate.  Regardless of whether or not you use supplements, you still have to get high quality protein in your system throughout the day, and avoid simple sugars, if you want to get lean & build muscle.

Aren't you supposed to avoid mixing Connely's proteins with other protein sources to reap the benefits? I noticed you take the ProMR at the same time. Something to do with "competing transporters"?

And if you absolutely have to avoid simple sugars to get lean and gain muscle, how do you explain all the bodybuilders who get shredded using hundreds of grams of dextrose, or similar, per day during prep? Sure they're on drugs that change things but they also shoot the evil insulin which is bad according to Connelly and everyone knows it's an extremely lipogenic hormone. The answer is that they're generally in a deficit still. In a large caloric excess, lots of extra insulin will make you fat and in a deficit it will hopefully spare muscle or even build it (when on lots of different chemicals). So calories are always a factor in body composition.

I checked the ProMR product and the carbs are from maltodextrin. It says it's a low GI version of malto. Don't know about that, but maltodextrin and the like are usually called evil nutritionally empty carbs by carb phobics. I'm pretty sure the original Met-Rx also contained maltodextrin, the high GI type... and it didn't hinder your cutting, did it?

Is this the same stuff you said was in the "prototype" pills you gave to me & several other GetBig members? The ones you said were too expensive to put into production and the formula would probably never see the light of day? I loved taking those things.

LOL, same BS was spewed by Bill Phillips about Met-Rx. Would probably never be mass marketed, too expensive, etc, etc. Usual marketing BS.

[Smanjh]

i get a kick out of how some in this thread are saying it's an unfair debate with connelly, how it's on his home turf and adonis won't be prepared etc.

if adonis is right, then he's right. how much more simple does it have to be?

the only reason he doesn't take this challenge is because he knows he can't prove his stance, and connelly will make him look like a fool without his google-fu to fall back on.

Let's see:

TA and every single study done in support of this concept known to man, every licensed nutritionist, every college educated person, several anecdotal reports from people here and elsewhere, and virtually all conclusive scientific evidence vs a man who claims to have isolated the growth factors in milk. Come on.

Look in the 50's and before, look at those guys. They knew nothing about training, nothing really about a proper 'bodybuilding diet', yet still had a look most guys would kill for. Then steroids hit, increased protein synthesis was realized, and everything changed.

Guys now are doing the same diet concepts invented by guys that were running the test of 5 men. Hell, If I was running a gram a week, I would be eating that way too.

However, even for them (and everyone else), there comes a point when you have done all of the smoke and mirror BS possible and you start reducing calories, yet your macro nutrients remain high (too high for protein generally).

If Connelly wasn't scared, why not do the case study with people here? What does he have to lose if this works so magnificently well?

If he brings out random broscience bullshit and it sounds somewhat plausible, yet Adonis is not prepared for that, what could he do instead of tell him it was bullshit? Then TA would be owned or whatever, and Connelly would sell some books.

Do I have to make it any more clear? 

[drkaje]

This really doesn't count as a complete, utter owning because qualifications and shit don't mean anything on GetBig.

[MAXX]

call me an idiot what ever but I don't understand how proteins and fats are calculated in kalories(energymeasurement). I mean it has other functions than being used as energy in the body. People have varying requirements of how much protein they need. For example an 8 y old girl cant utilize as much as an adult man and a steroid user can utilize alot more than the average man.

say a guy eats 400 grams of protein, 1000 grams of carbs and 100 grams of fat

some of these nutrients will be used for other things than energy say 300 of the 400 grams of protein is used for different functions and 50 grams of the 100 grams of fat is used for different functions. That means -300 grams of protein and -50 grams of fat is taken out of the total calorie calculation? and these numbers should be very individual depending on the person.

van_bilderass can explain this for me? I'm confused  

[MindSpin]

Let's see:

TA and every single study done in support of this concept known to man, every licensed nutritionist, every college educated person, several anecdotal reports from people here and elsewhere, and virtually all conclusive scientific evidence vs a man who claims to have isolated the growth factors in milk. Come on.

Everyone once "knew" that the earth was flat and they "knew" that the sun revolved around the earth.  Of course they were all wrong.

http://en.tackfilm.se/?id=1271353219075RA14

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." --Mahatma Gandhi

[MindSpin]

This really doesn't count as a complete, utter owning because qualifications and shit don't mean anything on GetBig.

It's a complete owning because Adam refused to accept the offer for him and his "girlfriend" to be flown to California for the weekend for FREE, in order to state his case on video for us all to see.  Well, first he accepted.  Then he came up with 14 pages of excuses.

[MindSpin]

Aren't you supposed to avoid mixing Connely's proteins with other protein sources to reap the benefits? I noticed you take the ProMR at the same time. Something to do with "competing transporters"?

And if you absolutely have to avoid simple sugars to get lean and gain muscle, how do you explain all the bodybuilders who get shredded using hundreds of grams of dextrose, or similar, per day during prep? Sure they're on drugs that change things but they also shoot the evil insulin which is bad according to Connelly and everyone knows it's an extremely lipogenic hormone. The answer is that they're generally in a deficit still. In a large caloric excess, lots of extra insulin will make you fat and in a deficit it will hopefully spare muscle or even build it (when on lots of different chemicals). So calories are always a factor in body composition.

I checked the ProMR product and the carbs are from maltodextrin. It says it's a low GI version of malto. Don't know about that, but maltodextrin and the like are usually called evil nutritionally empty carbs by carb phobics. I'm pretty sure the original Met-Rx also contained maltodextrin, the high GI type... and it didn't hinder your cutting, did it?

LOL, same BS was spewed by Bill Phillips about Met-Rx. Would probably never be mass marketed, too expensive, etc, etc. Usual marketing BS.

Doesn't matter what you mix his proteins with.  It's the concentration of the growth factors in them, that do the trick.  But again, I don't want to turn this thread into a Connelly protein commercial.  It's a totally separate subject from the calorie debate.

[Fury]

Let's see:

TA and every single study done in support of this concept known to man, every licensed nutritionist, every college educated person, several anecdotal reports from people here and elsewhere, and virtually all conclusive scientific evidence vs a man who claims to have isolated the growth factors in milk. Come on.

Look in the 50's and before, look at those guys. They knew nothing about training, nothing really about a proper 'bodybuilding diet', yet still had a look most guys would kill for. Then steroids hit, increased protein synthesis was realized, and everything changed.

Guys now are doing the same diet concepts invented by guys that were running the test of 5 men. Hell, If I was running a gram a week, I would be eating that way too.

However, even for them (and everyone else), there comes a point when you have done all of the smoke and mirror BS possible and you start reducing calories, yet your macro nutrients remain high (too high for protein generally).

If Connelly wasn't scared, why not do the case study with people here? What does he have to lose if this works so magnificently well?

If he brings out random broscience bullshit and it sounds somewhat plausible, yet Adonis is not prepared for that, what could he do instead of tell him it was bullshit? Then TA would be owned or whatever, and Connelly would sell some books.

Do I have to make it any more clear?  

I'm willing to bet most people in the 50s and before ate much healthier than most people do nowadays. Fast food wasn't exactly commonplace back then. Good hearty meals full of protein and good carbs were probably the norm for the guys with the great physiques. People sat down to a good dinner prepared by their wife/mother/girlfriend/whatever. Not eating multiple meals full of empty calories from things like sugar and processed meat.

[MindSpin]

I'm willing to bet most people in the 50s and before ate much healthier than most people do nowadays. Fast food wasn't exactly commonplace back then. Good hearty meals full of protein and good carbs were the norm. People sat down to a good dinner prepared by their wife/mother/girlfriend/whatever. Not eating multiple meals full of empty calories from things like sugar and processed meat.

For once we agree on something.  Add to that the fact that High Fructose Corn Syrup had not yet invaded our diet.  It's now in just about everything we buy at the grocery store.

[Fury]

For once we agree on something.  Add to that the fact that High Fructose Corn Syrup had not yet invaded our diet.  It's now in just about everything we buy at the grocery store.

Unfortunately, I'm actually in full agreement with everything you and Dr. Connelly are saying. 

[MAXX]

calories

Isn't this just an indication/pointer/hint for the gereral public how much energy different foods has for ones body?

Imo it can never be an exact measurment.

I'm no dietician but this is what my logic tells me.

[drkaje]

It's a complete owning because Adam refused to accept the offer for him and his "girlfriend" to be flown to California for the weekend for FREE, in order to state his case on video for us all to see.  Well, first he accepted.  Then he came up with 14 pages of excuses.

He'll never shut up, LOL!

A few years ago someone was arguing that steroids can't negatively affect kidney function..... with a board certified nephrologist. 

[MindSpin]

calories

Isn't this just an indication/pointer/hint for the gereral public how much energy different foods has for ones body?

Imo it can never be an exact measurment.

I'm no dietician but this is what my logic tells me.

That is what is at the core of the calories problem.  You cannot measure calories in/out.  The old argument of "There are 3500 calories per pound of body fat. In order to lose just one pound of stored fat we need to burn off 3500 extra calories" is absolute nonsense.  Although it seems logical, energy metabolism is very complex and differs greatly between individuals.

Stick to a high-protein moderate carb/fat diet when trying to build muscle.  Cut your carbs/sugars and replace them with more protein/fat when trying to lean out.  If you like the convenience of using supplements, find a good MRP or whey protein.