Shawn or Bret?

[The Showstoppa]

Sometimes I wonder if Bret’s and Shawn’s characters were what they wanted and tried to be in real life.

Bret seemed more down to earth inside and outside the ring.
Yes, he had his faults - as does everyone.
But, basically, he seemed like a genuinely good person.

I get the impression that Shawn tried playing the mouthy little runt/prick as often as he could get away with…Syracuse being one of the times he could not.
I never got into Shawn’s kayfabe character, and if that is how he is in real life (don‘t simply rely on what his detractors say), he’s not someone I’d sit down and have a beer with.

It sounds as though HBK was lucky to have some “big-bastard” friends to watch his back when he screwed up.

That goes along w/ what I was posting to Playboy in another thread.....the whole "keep the character as close to you are in real life" idea that I first heard Arn talk about many years ago.  Bret and Shawn are just two of many, many examples of it.

[Montague]

That goes along w/ what I was posting to Playboy in another thread.....the whole "keep the character as close to you are in real life" idea that I first heard Arn talk about many years ago.  Bret and Shawn are just two of many, many examples of it.

Foley once said that the best/most realistic on-air characters are often merely extensions of the people portraying them.

[The Showstoppa]

Foley once said that the best/most realistic on-air characters are often merely extensions of the people portraying them.

No doubt.  i remember Arn talking about that in his book, in 2000.  Not sure if he was the first one to say it, but I agree 100%.

[Playboy]

Foley once said that the best/most realistic on-air characters are often merely extensions of the people portraying them.

I'll never forget that night he won the world title for the first time on Raw when he started doing laps around the ring, lol....and i'll never forget that RR card when the Rock won the title back after handcuffing Foley and hitting him with a chair about 25 times in the aisle way...OUCH!

[Montague]

...and i'll never forget that RR card when the Rock won the title back after handcuffing Foley and hitting him with a chair about 25 times in the aisle way...OUCH!

According to Foley, there was a lot of legit heat between the two of them because of that incident.
Apparently, they'd agreed on about seven shots...but, in the heat of battle, 7 turned into something like 22.

After learning of Mick's account, I laughed briefly and then felt pity when watching the match again and seeing Mick trying to move away from Rock, who simply refused to let up.
At one point, Mick turned his back to Rock, and Rocky stepped around to front and bashed him again!

I can understand getting caught up in the heat of the moment, but that still seems damn inconsiderate.

[Playboy]

According to Foley, there was a lot of legit heat between the two of them because of that incident.
Apparently, they'd agreed on about seven shots...but, in the heat of battle, 7 turned into something like 22.

After learning of Mick's account, I laughed briefly and then felt pity when watching the match again and seeing Mick trying to move away from Rock, who simply refused to let up.
At one point, Mick turned his back to Rock, and Rocky stepped around to front and bashed him again!

I can understand getting caught up in the heat of the moment, but that still seems damn inconsiderate.

In Beyond The Mat, they showed Foley getting stitched up backstage after that indident and he actually thanked the Rock for a great match and said that tose extra chair shots made the match even better.

[Montague]

In Beyond The Mat, they showed Foley getting stitched up backstage after that indident and he actually thanked the Rock for a great match and said that tose extra chair shots made the match even better.

Yeah, but I don't think Mick was thinking too straight immediately followin that match...lol!
I think it was when Blaustein showed him the footage after the fact, and when he saw his family's reaction, etc. that Mick got a bit pissed.

Also, I'd have to go back & find it, but Mick wrote about a conversation he had with his wife prior to the triple threat match (or whatever that year's Mania main event was), in which he & Rock were participants: something along the lines of, "Don't expect this match to be anything fantastic."

He attributed this statement to "philosophical differences" he was having with "one of the participants."
The reader had little reason to believe he was referring to anyone other than Johnson.
 

[The Showstoppa]

The thing about Rock is that he isn't anything incredible as an in-ring performer.....adequate, but none of his matches really jump out at you....but he has good in-ring psychology and of course great mic work to build heat for the match.

[Montague]

The thing about Rock is that he isn't anything incredible as an in-ring performer.....adequate, but none of his matches really jump out at you....but he has good in-ring psychology and of course great mic work to build heat for the match.

Sure, he had a good look, charisma, and drew money.
The last one is the most important.

The fact that he's been gone for so long will also add a ton to his appeal.
Also, as someone else mentioned, it'd be nice if this will usher in an edgier/more interesting product.
I think there's a good chance they'll even work Austin into this at some point - he's already doing the TE spot.

[The Showstoppa]

Sure, he had a good look, charisma, and drew money.
The last one is the most important.

The fact that he's been gone for so long will also add a ton to his appeal.
Also, as someone else mentioned, it'd be nice if this will usher in an edgier/more interesting product.
I think there's a good chance they'll even work Austin into this at some point - he's already doing the TE spot.

I think Austin might even do something at Mania.  Would jumpstart the TE show. 

[Playboy]

Yeah, but I don't think Mick was thinking too straight immediately followin that match...lol!
I think it was when Blaustein showed him the footage after the fact, and when he saw his family's reaction, etc. that Mick got a bit pissed.

Also, I'd have to go back & find it, but Mick wrote about a conversation he had with his wife prior to the triple threat match (or whatever that year's Mania main event was), in which he & Rock were participants: something along the lines of, "Don't expect this match to be anything fantastic."

He attributed this statement to "philosophical differences" he was having with "one of the participants."
The reader had little reason to believe he was referring to anyone other than Johnson.
 

He didn't even know where the locker room was...lol...he had to have Brisco and Patterson escort him in the right direction....and they say wrestling is ALL FAKE 

[Montague]

He didn't even know where the locker room was...lol...he had to have Brisco and Patterson escort him in the right direction....and they say wrestling is ALL FAKE 

You know, when you consider all of the multiple (KNOWN) concussions that Foley's sustained over his career, it kind of weakens the whole argument that Benoit's family makes in regards to repeated head trauma essentially causing him to kill his family.

I guess it's easier to blame concussions because it allows them to ultimately blame the old man.

So, Chris committed a double-murder and suicide...
Hmm...
There's GOT to be a way we can pin this on Vince!!
 

[The Showstoppa]

You know, when you consider all of the multiple (KNOWN) concussions that Foley's sustained over his career, it kind of weakens the whole argument that Benoit's family makes in regards to repeated head trauma essentially causing him to kill his family.

I guess it's easier to blame concussions because it allows them to ultimately blame the old man.

So, Chris committed a double-murder and suicide...
Hmm...
There's GOT to be a way we can pin this on Vince!!
 

Very true.  And look at many other sports where guys suffer multiple concusions during their careers.  Benoit obviously had some serious mental issues, whether they were affected by concussions, is not VKM's fault.  Plus the VAST majority of Benoits concussions probably came before he was even in the WWF.

[Montague]

Very true.  And look at many other sports where guys suffer multiple concusions during their careers.  Benoit obviously had some serious mental issues, whether they were affected by concussions, is not VKM's fault.  Plus the VAST majority of Benoits concussions probably came before he was even in the WWF.

If I was Michael Benoit, I wouldn't want to believe my son was a cold-blooded murderer, either.
But, when it's known that your son personally murdered his wife and little boy, and you're going to blame SOMEONE ELSE for the actions HE COMMITTED, then you'd better have DAMN, GOOD FUCKING EVIDENCE to back that claim!!!

I'm sorry, but the explanation they offer is too non-sequitur in my opinion, and it's not enough to convince me.

[The Showstoppa]

If I was Michael Benoit, I wouldn't want to believe my son was a cold-blooded murderer, either.
But, when it's known that your son personally murdered his wife and little boy, and you're going to blame SOMEONE ELSE for the actions HE COMMITTED, then you'd better have DAMN, GOOD FUCKING EVIDENCE to back that claim!!!

I'm sorry, but the explanation they offer is too non-sequitur in my opinion, and it's not enough to convince me.

i agree.  i can understand the pain and not wanting to put the blame on your son, but c'mon....to force it upon someone else, when it was his family, mom and dad, who should have really noticed a difference and gotten him some help. I'm sure Nancy was probably just trying to get thru the days at that point..... his parents also raised him, so of course they don't want to think it was anything they did, or didn't do, that could have caused it.

[Playboy]

You know, when you consider all of the multiple (KNOWN) concussions that Foley's sustained over his career, it kind of weakens the whole argument that Benoit's family makes in regards to repeated head trauma essentially causing him to kill his family.

I guess it's easier to blame concussions because it allows them to ultimately blame the old man.

So, Chris committed a double-murder and suicide...
Hmm...
There's GOT to be a way we can pin this on Vince!!
 

I think the "concussion" theory is bullshit. It is a clever way for the Benoit family to hide the fact that their son is a murderer. If concussions cause people to get demincia and turn them into murderers, the whole NFL would be sitting on death row right now. 

[leaky_frog]

  First off, Bret is my all-time favorite wrestler, so I'm totally biased.  The thing that stood out to me in the Bret vs Shawn question is selling.  Bret made everyone he wrestled look good.  He sold like he was legit hurt, it was never cartoony.  Some of my favorite Bret matches are ones he lost, because he built the other guy, while still managing to make himself look like gold.

  Shawn pulled fantastic moves and was dang entertaining to watch, but I never felt like he sold another guy throughout the match.  Just my 2 cents.

[Montague]

Shawn pulled fantastic moves and was dang entertaining to watch, but I never felt like he sold another guy throughout the match.

Hulkster agrees:

 

[leaky_frog]

Hulkster agrees:

 

See, overselling is the same as no-selling in my book.

[Montague]

See, overselling is the same as no-selling in my book.

Oh, it was a total mockery on HBK's part.
At least, that's how it appeared to me, and knowing some of the bitch moves that Shawn has made over the years, it's completely believable

It's just your post made me think of this clip, which is still kind of funny.

[Playboy]

See, overselling is the same as no-selling in my book.

You think it was a mockery? Michaels always took a chop or a punch and did ten summersaults and landed outside the ring from anyone he ever wrestled.

[The Showstoppa]

i didn't think it looked all that bad.....but if Shawn was going to do that oversell for anyone to try to make a point, I'm SURE glad it was Hogan...

[Montague]

You think it was a mockery? Michaels always took a chop or a punch and did ten summersaults and landed outside the ring from anyone he ever wrestled.

Maybe it looked like a mockery due to Hogan's (lack of) offense.

As with most things, there’s a story to this.
And, as with most things, I don’t know how accurate it is, but…

Supposedly, the original deal was for HBK to job to Hogan in this match, with the understanding that Shawn would go over in the rematch.
Prior to this match (above clip), Hogan began complaining of back problems and decided to take time off from action following that night’s event.

Shawn took that as an insult (after all, not putting people over is his gimmick), and decided to do a little overselling to get even a bit.
He could always make the argument that he was just going high for Hogan out of respect, but many people feel this match was a mockery.

From what Bret has written & said, Hogan also has a history of not wanting to put certain top guys over.


This, IMO, is what sets guys like Rock, Taker, & Bret apart from the Hogan's and HBK's.

[The Showstoppa]

Maybe it looked like a mockery due to Hogan's (lack of) offense.

As with most things, there’s a story to this.
And, as with most things, I don’t know how accurate it is, but…

Supposedly, the original deal was for HBK to job to Hogan in this match, with the understanding that Shawn would go over in the rematch.
Prior to this match (above clip), Hogan began complaining of back problems and decided to take time off from action following that night’s event.

Shawn took that as an insult (after all, not putting people over is his gimmick), and decided to do a little overselling to get even a bit.
He could always make the argument that he was just going high for Hogan out of respect, but many people feel this match was a mockery.

From what Bret has written & said, Hogan also has a history of not wanting to put certain top guys over.


This, IMO, is what sets guys like Rock, Taker, & Bret apart from the Hogan's and HBK's.

I agree with your last statement.  Being raised on the NWA where EVERYBODY put people over, I think it had a huge effect on me when Hogan went to th WWF and put nobody over.  To me it just gave the product a corny "you know the routine" feel.  Granted at that point it was more VKM's idea than Hogan's......but wow did those two create a monster.

What annoys me about HBK is that he really didn't need to do that crap.  Much like Flair, he was going to be over either way.  I think his was more of him just being a prick because he could, kinda thing.  I really don't think h needed to do it to keep his spot on the roster. His talent was undeniable.

[Montague]

I agree with your last statement.  Being raised on the NWA where EVERYBODY put people over, I think it had a huge effect on me when Hogan went to th WWF and put nobody over.  To me it just gave the product a corny "you know the routine" feel.  Granted at that point it was more VKM's idea than Hogan's......but wow did those two create a monster.

What annoys me about HBK is that he really didn't need to do that crap.  Much like Flair, he was going to be over either way.  I think his was more of him just being a prick because he could, kinda thing.  I really don't think h needed to do it to keep his spot on the roster. His talent was undeniable.

I love when Vince used to always talk about the "time-honored traditions" of wrestling - especially back around the '97 SS.
Do you know how many traditions the old man broke?