Author Topic: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!  (Read 52650 times)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #125 on: February 18, 2011, 05:09:37 PM »
Show me the long form bc and I will admit I was wrong.

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #126 on: February 18, 2011, 08:38:47 PM »
How to Lose Friends and Not Influence People
CFR ^ | February 18, 2011 | Elliot Abrams




http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2011/02/18/how-to-lose-friends-and-not-influence-people





The Obama Administration cast its first veto in the United Nations on Friday, February 18, killing a Security Council resolution that would have condemned Israeli settlement activity. Its poor handling of the entire episode has left just about everyone angry at the United States , and is therefore a manifest failure of American diplomacy. The Palestinian Authority began to talk about this resolution months ago. The United States could then have adopted a clear position: put it forward and it will be vetoed. That very clear stand might have persuaded the Palestinian leaders and their Arab supporters to drop the effort early on, when it could have been abandoned with no loss of face. Instead the Administration refused to make its position clear until the final day...It seems clear that the Administration was desperate to avoid a veto, indeed desperate to go four years without spoiling its “perfect record.”

But a “perfect record” in the UN requires vetoes, given the persistent anti-Israel bias of the organization. The Administration’s desire to avoid vetoes only served to reduce its bargaining power, for the credible threat of a veto has long served American diplomats seeking to achieve an outcome more favorable to our interests.

On the last day before the vote, the President called Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas...asked Abbas to drop the resolution and settle for a non-binding statement condemning settlement expansion...But apparently the President did more than ask: “One senior Palestinian official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the offer, made in an hour-long phone call from Obama, was accompanied by veiled threats of ‘repercussions’ if it were refused....

Abbas rejected the Clinton and Obama appeals and/or ignored their threats, in itself a sign of reduced American diplomatic influence. The American veto will have angered Palestinians even more. But it will not have gained the Administration any thanks from Israel or from supporters of Israel in the United States, who were appalled by the Administration’s search for a bad compromise...

So the Administration was content with condemning settlements, happy to establish a new UN fact-finding mission, and willing to redefine the role of the Quartet. All that just to avoid a veto of the sort American presidents have been ordering for decades. Feeling guilty about its veto the Administration then issued an extraordinary “explanation of vote,” read by UN Ambassador Susan Rice. Though we had to veto, she explained, “we reject in the strongest terms the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity. For more than four decades, Israeli settlement activity in territories occupied in 1967 has undermined Israel’s security and corroded hopes for peace and stability in the region. Continued settlement activity violates Israel’s international commitments, devastates trust between the parties, and threatens the prospects for peace…."

This is amazing language for a diplomat: “folly,” “illegitimacy,” “devastates,” “corroded,” and so on. It’s hard to recall such a vehement statement against Israel, nor one that contains so many conclusions that are, to say the least, highly debatable....

No doubt the Administration decided that as it had vetoed it would “make it up” to the Arabs with this statement. But emotive language such as Amb. Rice employed serves no purpose. Arab newspapers will headline the veto—assuming of course that they have space in their pages tomorrow after covering the revolts in Tunisia, Yemen, Algeria, Libya, Bahrain, and Egypt—and are very unlikely to cover her speech. Only Israelis and supporters of Israel in the United States will study her language, and remember it.

So, the Administration emerges having damaged relations with both the Israelis and the Palestinians. Decades of American experience at the United Nations proves clearly the “folly” of such diplomatic action...Next time, say you’ll veto, veto, and leave it at that. The United States will end up with fewer angry friends and fewer gleeful enemies.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Soul Crusher

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #127 on: February 19, 2011, 07:33:34 AM »
Double standard for Iran. Obama Administration coddles dictatorship in Tehran
Washington Times ^ | Feb 18, 2011 | The Washington Times




The people flooding into the streets of Iran to seek regime change find no support from the U.S. government. President Obama, who hectored Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak to transfer power "right now," suddenly doesn't want to get involved when it comes to the dictators running the Islamic republic.


(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...

andreisdaman

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #128 on: February 19, 2011, 08:20:52 AM »
I just love it how you have made Obama such an obsession in your life.. .good for me!..I can watch you suffer for six more years!!!...I am so happy!!!!

Soul Crusher

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #129 on: February 19, 2011, 08:39:14 AM »
President Obama must take the blame for the UN resolution condemning Israel that he had to veto
Editorials

Saturday, February 19th 2011, 4:00 AM

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2011/02/19/2011-02-19_president_obama_must_take_the_blame_for_the_un_resolution_condemning_israel_that.html


________________________ ________


President Obama did the right thing Friday in ordering a U.S. veto of a United Nations Security Council resolution that sought to condemn Israel for "illegal" West Bank settlements and demanding a halt to further construction.

The veto put America at odds not only with most of the world, but also with Obama's own terribly misguided position on the settlements.

The President said he was dead set against them, the Palestinians took full advantage and, presto, the Security Council followed the U.S.' lead to make Israel the bad guy in the drama.

In other words, Obama created the monster and was left to cope with destruction of his own making at a time when the Mideast has descended into turmoil.

First he alienated Israel and now, at a crucial turn of history, he has alienated the Arab world.

All in a very bad day's work.

Obama began the botch in 2009, when, out of nowhere, he called for a settlement freeze - effectively making that a precondition for peace talks between the Israelis and Palestinians.

This was something no Palestinian partner had ever asked for or expected. It also vested a third-level consideration with more importance than, say, Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist. And it displayed a naive belief that Palestinians would negotiate in productive good faith if only Israel would make this one gesture.

With the American President suddenly prioritizing it, the demand morphed into the perfect excuse for the Palestinians to stall - telling people to "look over there" while rejectionists continued their frontal assault on Israel's legitimacy.

Obama further degraded matters by repeatedly using some of the same "settlement" terminology to describe neighborhoods that are home to tens of thousands of Jews in East Jerusalem.

These are not settlements in any shape or form.

And so the Palestinians adopted a strategy of painting Israel as a party so intransigent and anti-peace as to be willing to resist the requests of the Jewish state's close ally America.

With anti-Israel sentiment running high around the globe, it worked.

The Security Council took up a Palestinian-backed resolution that had more than 100 cosponsors. Desperately, Obama tried to persuade the council to issue a "statement" rather than a "resolution," as if the damage would have been less, as if any good would come of it.

This is not a split-the-difference, muddy-the-waters kind of thing. There is right and there is wrong - and the President, unfortunately, was wrong.

Not that he is willing to admit it. In explaining the veto, Ambassador Susan Rice said the U.S. agrees with the other 14 members of the council "about the folly and illegitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity."

She said she cast a veto only because "it is unwise" for the UN panel to try to resolve Israeli-Palestinians relations by fiat.

Would that this could become a humbling lesson for Obama. His grand attempt to forge a Mideast peace is in shambles. Yes, talks break down, but this is worse. The parties are further apart than when he started, thanks largely to his settlements demand.

Meanwhile, with Egypt struggling toward a new government and people across the region rising up in revolt against despotic regimes, America should be courting the forces of change with great care, not infuriating them.

Skip8282

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #130 on: February 19, 2011, 09:22:36 AM »
I just love it how you have made Obama such an obsession in your life.. .good for me!..I can watch you suffer for six more years!!!...I am so happy!!!!



::)

Yeah, the guy who obsesses over the person who obsesses is much better.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #131 on: February 19, 2011, 09:36:10 AM »


::)

Yeah, the guy who obsesses over the person who obsesses is much better.

Its like if I know my neighbor (Obama) is intent to burn my house down (the economy and nation) and who already has 5 arson convictions (WTF policies, wright, ayeres, failed stim bill, obamacare, cap n trade, etc). 

Damn right I am going to keep my eye on that like a laser. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #132 on: February 19, 2011, 11:55:10 AM »
LIBYA: At least 84 reported dead as Kadafi loyalists disperse protesters with force ...
LA Times ^ | February 19, 2011 | Carol J. Williams


________________________ ________________________ ________


Libyan strongman Moammar Kadafi, confronted by surging unrest that threatens his 41-year stranglehold on power in the oil-rich country, deployed security forces and loyalists to brutally disperse protesters Saturday in a confrontation reported to have taken at least 84 lives.

A doctor in the eastern city of Benghazi told the Al Jazeera network that he had seen dozens of corpses at the city's hospital, which was on the brink of running out of blood for transfusions to treat the wounded.

"I have seen it on my own eyes: At least 70 bodies at the hospital," Wuwufaq al-Zuwail told the network. He said security forces had blocked ambulances from approaching the protest venues to collect some felled in the brutal crackdown.

Kadafi's regime has successfully shielded the unrest in his country from the outside world's censure by barring foreign journalists, cutting off Internet access and jamming satellite signals, Arab news agencies reported, citing sources in the eastern areas where the protests have been most intense.

The Libyan government has blocked Al Jazeera's TV signal in the country and people have also reported that the network's website is inaccessible, the network said in its latest dispatch.


(Excerpt) Read more at latimesblogs.latimes.com ...


________________________ ____________-


Funny -where is obama on this?   

andreisdaman

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #133 on: February 19, 2011, 01:35:02 PM »
LIBYA: At least 84 reported dead as Kadafi loyalists disperse protesters with force ...
LA Times ^ | February 19, 2011 | Carol J. Williams


________________________ ________________________ ________


Libyan strongman Moammar Kadafi, confronted by surging unrest that threatens his 41-year stranglehold on power in the oil-rich country, deployed security forces and loyalists to brutally disperse protesters Saturday in a confrontation reported to have taken at least 84 lives.

A doctor in the eastern city of Benghazi told the Al Jazeera network that he had seen dozens of corpses at the city's hospital, which was on the brink of running out of blood for transfusions to treat the wounded.

"I have seen it on my own eyes: At least 70 bodies at the hospital," Wuwufaq al-Zuwail told the network. He said security forces had blocked ambulances from approaching the protest venues to collect some felled in the brutal crackdown.

Kadafi's regime has successfully shielded the unrest in his country from the outside world's censure by barring foreign journalists, cutting off Internet access and jamming satellite signals, Arab news agencies reported, citing sources in the eastern areas where the protests have been most intense.

The Libyan government has blocked Al Jazeera's TV signal in the country and people have also reported that the network's website is inaccessible, the network said in its latest dispatch.


(Excerpt) Read more at latimesblogs.latimes.com ...


________________________ ____________-


Funny -where is obama on this?   

where should he be?  Is this his fault as well?

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #134 on: February 19, 2011, 01:38:02 PM »
yeha, obama talked on the last egypt thing, and we dissed him.
he's being quiet on this issue - and it's "Where is obama on this", dissing him for not chiming in on every single riot in the world.

He's finally being presidential on it - staying quiet, observing, working behind scene, and twisting the fcking arm of whoever wins. 

Fury

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #135 on: February 19, 2011, 01:39:46 PM »
yeha, obama talked on the last egypt thing, and we dissed him.
he's being quiet on this issue - and it's "Where is obama on this", dissing him for not chiming in on every single riot in the world.

He's finally being presidential on it - staying quiet, observing, working behind scene, and twisting the fcking arm of whoever wins. 

So you support flip-flopping and inconsistency. Makes sense. You clowns can't even explain how Obama handled these events well (meanwhile, the critics have actually laid out there arguments, making 100% of course). The last few weeks have shown how unbelievably inexperienced and clueless this entire admin. is. And you just lap it up like the Obama lapdog you are.  :-\

andreisdaman

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #136 on: February 19, 2011, 01:42:42 PM »
So you support flip-flopping and inconsistency. Makes sense. You clowns can't even explain how Obama handled these events well (meanwhile, the critics have actually laid out there arguments, making 100% of course). The last few weeks have shown how unbelievably inexperienced and clueless this entire admin. is. And you just lap it up like the Obama lapdog you are.  :-\
we are not supposed to know how he handled these events...he twists arms in private...you know that...stop posturing

Fury

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #137 on: February 19, 2011, 01:44:16 PM »
we are not supposed to know how he handled these events...he twists arms in private...you know that...stop posturing

Twists arms in private? He couldn't even get Mubarak to take a phone call from him and that guy was the US's 2nd biggest ally in the Muslim world. He's not twisting anybody's arm. He and his cronies have failed horribly on these events. And the saddest part is that they weren't even prepared for it (showing how truly inexperienced they are). Not that you will admit it as your skin color makes sure you agree with everything the Messiah does, regardless of how it turns out. Hence why it's stupid to even entertain your points on topics like this.

The funniest part in all this is that you guys can't even refute people like Ferguson. You just say he doesn't know what he's talking about and then proceed right back into your hero worship, all without actually refuting anything. 

andreisdaman

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #138 on: February 19, 2011, 01:50:14 PM »
Twists arms in private? He couldn't even get Mubarak to take a phone call from him and that guy was the US's 2nd biggest ally in the Muslim world. He's not twisting anybody's arm. He and his cronies have failed horribly on these events. And the saddest part is that they weren't even prepared for it (showing how truly inexperienced they are). Not that you will admit it as your skin color makes sure you agree with everything the Messiah does, regardless of how it turns out. Hence why it's stupid to even entertain your points on topics like this.

ha..bringing up skin color.....I was waiting for that..its always what people do as a last resort..the fact is Mubarak is gone...how do you suppose that happened?....dictators always hang on until the  very end....Obama told him to leave....accept that.....and stop whining....you sound like bitch

Fury

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #139 on: February 19, 2011, 01:52:39 PM »
ha..bringing up skin color.....I was waiting for that..its always what people do as a last resort..the fact is Mubarak is gone...how do you suppose that happened?....dictators always hang on until the  very end....Obama told him to leave....accept that.....and stop whining....you sound like bitch

I brought it up because you haven't actually refuted anything and continue on with your blind hero worship. You just spend the bulk of your time...following...333.. .around...like...a...los t...dog...and...typing.. .like...a...retard.

Obama had no hand in getting Mubarak to leave and was completely bitch-slapped by Mubarak's conference announcing he wasn't stepping down (after Obama spent the entire day leading up to hailing his decision). Was a glorious owning and slap-in-the-face to Obama. Then to top it off, the Saudi King, our biggest ally in the Muslim world, completely eviscerated Obama on a phone call and told him that he would bankroll Mubarak should Obama pull the aid we give Egypt. I'm guessing you shared a good cry right alongside your GodKing that night.

Then again, you're the same retard who actually claimed the US message on Egypt was consistent. LOL.

andreisdaman

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #140 on: February 19, 2011, 01:57:10 PM »
I brought it up because you haven't actually refuted anything and continue on your with blinded hero worship. You just spend the bulk of your time...following...333.. .around...like...a...los t...dog...and...typing.. .like...a...retard.

Obama had no hand in getting Mubarak to leave and was completely bitch-slapped by Mubarak's conference announcing he wasn't stepping down (after Obama spent the entire day leading up to hailing his decision). Was a glorious owning and slap-in-the-face to Obama. I'm guessing you shared a good cry right alongside Obama that night.

you are sounding really retarded now....I guess you are there for the daily white house briefings....I don't refute anything you say because like I said earlier, why bother?..you and 3333 never ever acknowledge when you are wrong or acknowledge any one elses point so why argue with myself???

you can rant all you want..but Obama is here for 6 more years..get used to it.....NOW GO TO YOUR ROOM AND CRY!!!!!!

Soul Crusher

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #141 on: February 19, 2011, 01:59:26 PM »
Andre why the silence on iran and lybia from zero? 

Fury

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #142 on: February 19, 2011, 02:00:49 PM »
you are sounding really retarded now....I guess you are there for the daily white house briefings....I don't refute anything you say because like I said earlier, why bother?..you and 3333 never ever acknowledge when you are wrong or acknowledge any one elses point so why argue with myself???

you can rant all you want..but Obama is here for 6 more years..get used to it.....NOW GO TO YOUR ROOM AND CRY!!!!!!

So now you're basing your opinion off "daily white house briefings" which you're not privy to either? Brilliant refutation! Makes complete sense!  ::)

Why would I admit I was wrong here when the bulk of the experts not sucking on the MSM tit have said the same thing? You continually avoiding refuting any of the points I (or the experts) have made while resorting to personal insults only further proves my point.



Go ahead and refute this in your own words with facts. I suspect you can't or won't. Thanks for playing. Feel free to carry on with your man-lust.

andreisdaman

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #143 on: February 19, 2011, 02:09:03 PM »
So now you're basing your opinion off "daily white house briefings" which you're not privy to either? Brilliant refutation! Makes complete sense!  ::)

Why would I admit I was wrong here when the bulk of the experts not sucking on the MSM tit have said the same thing? You continually avoiding refuting any of the points I (or the experts) have made while resorting to personal insults only further proves my point.



Go ahead and refute this in your own words with facts. I suspect you can't or won't. Thanks for playing. Feel free to carry on with your man-lust.


why I am even bothering to argue with you, I don't know, but there are a million "experts" out there..you have yours and I have mine...whose right and whose wrong???....Boehner should know..he is PART OF THE GOVERNMENT.....he said Obama handled Egypt correctly..for some reason you and 3333 can't handle that???..why not?..because it doesn't fit in your agenda...I guess Boehner has man-lust for Obama as well huh???....

NOW BACK TO YOUR ROOM AND CONTINUE CRYING

Fury

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #144 on: February 19, 2011, 02:12:49 PM »
Still refusing to actually refute any points made and melting down harder than ever. Still praising that moron Boehner (as if his opinion means dick and ironically, the same opinion you Dems laugh at and attack 99.99% of the time) on top of it. How sad and typical of an uninformed, Obama-worshiping sheeple.

Hahahahahaha @ basing your entire argument around the opinion of a teary-eyed Republican you hate. And then arguing that the Messiah is "working behind the scenes" when, in reality, he can't even get his 2nd biggest ally in the Muslim world to take his phone call. If that's not desperate then I don't know what is. Thanks...for...playing!

andreisdaman

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #145 on: February 19, 2011, 02:14:12 PM »
Andre why the silence on iran and lybia from zero? 
come on 3333 you and I both know this is a red herring...if Obama would have commented on it whatever he said would have been wrong...so cut ie t out.....Obama is working behind the scenes as he should be lest the ignorant masses of the middle east think the U.S. is behind these uprisings thus damaging the credibility of the protesters

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #146 on: February 19, 2011, 02:17:13 PM »
Still refusing to actually refute any points made and melting down harder than ever. Still praising that moron Boehner (as if his opinion means dick and ironically, the same opinion you Dems laugh at and attack 99.99% of the time) on top of it. How sad and typical of an uninformed, Obama-worshiping sheeple.

Hahahahahaha @ basing your entire argument around the opinion of a teary-eyed Republican you hate. If that's not desperate then I don't know what is. Thanks...for...playing!


again refuting you is a waste of time..you don't care about facts....I will just keep puting forth my argument just as you do....facts do not work for you....I won't waste my time digging up and posting facts that you won't read anyway

Soul Crusher

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #147 on: February 19, 2011, 02:17:22 PM »
Sorry - he is coaching a basketball game today and parties with zuckerberg yesterday - I don't think he is really doing shit to help the protestors getting slaughtered by his self labeld father Quadafi.

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #148 on: February 19, 2011, 03:33:05 PM »

Comment
U.S.-Taliban Talks
by Steve Coll
February 28, 2011 SharePrintE-MailSingle Page


________________________ ______________________


On August 22, 1998, Mullah Omar, the emir of Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, made a cold call to the State Department. The United States had just lobbed cruise missiles at Al Qaeda camps in his nation. Omar got a mid-level diplomat on the line and spoke calmly. He suggested that Congress force President Bill Clinton to resign. He said that American military strikes “would be counter-productive,” and would “spark more, not less, terrorist attacks,” according to a declassified record of the call. “Omar emphasized that this was his best advice,” the record adds.

That was the first and last time that Omar spoke to an American government official, as far as is known. Before September 11th, some of his deputies had occasionally spoken with U.S. diplomats, but afterward the United States rejected direct talks with Taliban leaders, on the ground that they were as much to blame for terrorism as Al Qaeda was. Last year, however, as the U.S.-led Afghan ground war passed its ninth anniversary, and Mullah Omar remained in hiding, presumably in Pakistan, a small number of officials in the Obama Administration—among them the late Richard Holbrooke, the special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan—argued that it was time to try talking to the Taliban again.

Holbrooke’s final diplomatic achievement, it turns out, was to see this advice accepted. The Obama Administration has entered into direct, secret talks with senior Afghan Taliban leaders, several people briefed about the talks told me last week. The discussions are continuing; they are of an exploratory nature and do not yet amount to a peace negotiation. That may take some time: the first secret talks between the United States and representatives of North Vietnam took place in 1968; the Paris Peace Accords, intended to end direct U.S. military involvement in the war, were not agreed on until 1973.

When asked for comment on the talks, a White House spokesman said that the remarks that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made last Friday at the Asia Society offered a “thorough representation of the U.S. position.” Clinton had tough words for the Taliban, saying that they were confronted with a choice between political compromise and ostracism as “an enemy of the international community.” She added, “I know that reconciling with an adversary that can be as brutal as the Taliban sounds distasteful, even unimaginable. And diplomacy would be easy if we only had to talk to our friends. But that is not how one makes peace. President Reagan understood that when he sat down with the Soviets. And Richard Holbrooke made this his life’s work. He negotiated face to face with Milosevic and ended a war.”

Mullah Omar is not a participant in the preliminary talks. He does not attend even secret meetings of underground Taliban leadership councils in Pakistani safe houses. When he does speak, he does so obliquely, via cassette tapes. One purpose of the talks initiated by the Obama Administration, therefore, is to assess which figures in the Taliban’s leadership, if any, might be willing to engage in formal Afghan peace negotiations, and under what conditions.

Obama’s war advisers previously made it clear that the Afghan President, Hamid Karzai, must lead any high-level peace or “reconciliation” process involving Taliban leaders, and, since 2008, Karzai has carried out sporadic talks with current and former Taliban, occasionally aided by Saudi Arabia, but to no end. Last summer, the Afghan government’s attempts produced a farcical con, when a man posed as a senior Taliban leader and fleeced his handlers for cash. The recent American talks are intended to prime more successful and durable negotiations led by Karzai. The United States would play a supporting role in these negotiations, and might join them to discuss the status of Taliban prisoners in U.S. custody or the future of international forces in Afghanistan. For the United States, the overarching goal of such negotiations would be to persuade at least some important Taliban leaders to break with Al Qaeda, leave the battlefield, and participate in Afghan electoral politics, without touching off violence by anti-Taliban groups or gutting the rights enjoyed by minorities and women.

Although the Taliban’s record is nothing like Al Qaeda’s, they have aided international terrorism; in 2000, for example, they facilitated the escape of the murderous hijackers of an Indian Airlines passenger plane. As Hillary Clinton indicated, the morality of talking to them at all, given their history of violence and repression, is debated within the Administration, as it is within the Afghan government. But in both countries there is also hope for an honorable path to end the war.

The pursuit of peace, however, can be just as risky as the prosecution of war. If mismanaged, full-blown Afghan peace talks might ignite a civil war along ethnic lines. (The Taliban draw their support from Afghanistan’s Pashtuns; the most vehement anti-Taliban militias are non-Pashtun.) Also, the Taliban and their historical benefactors in Pakistan, the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate, the spy agency directed by the Pakistani military, have an almost unblemished record of overreaching in Afghan affairs, by funding and arming client militias, and there is no reason to think that their habits would change if serious negotiations unfolded. And, even under the best of circumstances, an Afghan peace process would most likely mirror the present character of the war: a slow, complicated, and deathly grind, atomized and menaced by interference from neighboring governments—not just Pakistan’s but also those of Iran, India, Russia, Uzbekistan, and China.

The Taliban today are diverse and fractured. Some old-school leaders, who served in Mullah Omar’s cabinet or as governors during the nineteen-nineties, belong to a council known as the Quetta Shura, named for the Pakistani city in which many Taliban have enjoyed sanctuary since 2001. This is the group whose members are thought to be most ready to consider coming in from the cold. Other factions, such as the Haqqani network, based in North Waziristan, which has long-standing ties to the I.S.I., are regarded as more malicious and more susceptible to Pakistan’s control. Inside Afghanistan, young Taliban commanders fight locally and often viciously, oblivious of international diplomacy. Yalta this is not.

Nonetheless, the Obama Administration has understandably concluded that the status quo is untenable. The war has devolved into a strategic stalemate: urban Afghan populations enjoy reasonable security, millions of schoolgirls are back in class, Al Qaeda cannot operate, and the Taliban cannot return to power, yet in the provinces ethnic militias and criminal gangs still husband weapons, cadge international funds, and exploit the weak. Neither the United States nor the Taliban can achieve its stated aims by arms alone, and the Administration lacks a sure way to preserve the gains made while reducing its military presence, as it must, for fiscal, political, and many other reasons.

If giving peace talks a chance can decrease the violence and shrink the Afghan battlefield by twenty or even ten per cent, President Obama will have calculated correctly: even a partly successful negotiation might help create political conditions that favor the reduction of American forces to a more sustainable level. A Taliban-endorsed ceasefire, to build confidence around long-term talks supported by many international governments, might also be conceivable.

Last spring, in Kabul, several former Taliban leaders told me that some exiled senior Taliban in Pakistan wanted the United States to leave Afghanistan but, at the same time, they preferred to talk with the Americans directly about the country’s future, both to escape I.S.I. manipulation and because they regarded Karzai as a weak puppet. As long as the Obama Administration refused to join in the talks, progress would be impossible, they told me. “It’s just the Americans,” Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban’s former ambassador to Pakistan, said. “They are not ready to make positive progress.”

At that point, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and military commanders, such as Admiral Michael Mullen, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, argued that Obama’s “surge” of troops needed more time to inflict morale-sapping damage on the Taliban; their theory was that Taliban leaders would take peace talks seriously only when they felt sufficiently battered. Last year, American-led forces killed or captured scores of mid-level Taliban commanders. General David Petraeus said recently that counterinsurgency efforts in the Taliban strongholds of Helmand and Kandahar provinces had pushed the guerrillas back. It was these perceived military gains that influenced the Administration’s decision to enter into direct talks.

Confidentiality has its place in statecraft, and if Afghanistan’s war is to be resolved it will require some quiet dealmaking, but there is something unsavory about secret talks as a mechanism for drawing the Taliban into politics. Afghanistan has suffered heavily enough from the covert designs of outside powers. Negotiations with the Taliban must eventually be transparent, so that the Afghans themselves can examine them. And more than a deal with Taliban leaders will be called for. American efforts to calm the violence will succeed only if they are part of a broader strategy in Afghanistan and South Asia, one that gives priority to economic development, energy links, water, and regional peacemaking, including in the conflict between India and Pakistan.

It is past time for the United States to shift some of its capacity for risk-taking in the war off the battlefield and into diplomacy aimed at reinforcing Afghan political unity, neutrality, civil rights, and social cohesion. The recent talks are nevertheless a constructive step. For too long, American political strategy in Afghanistan has been subordinate to military and intelligence operations. Thinking and learning through principled discussions with an enemy is an opportunity, not a trap. ♦



Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/02/28/110228taco_talk_coll?printable=true#ixzz1ERwy4IwN


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andreisdaman

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Re: Boehner: Obama a citizen and handled Egypt correctly...3333 commits suicide!
« Reply #149 on: February 19, 2011, 11:07:32 PM »
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U.S.-Taliban Talks
by Steve Coll
February 28, 2011 SharePrintE-MailSingle Page


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On August 22, 1998, Mullah Omar, the emir of Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, made a cold call to the State Department. The United States had just lobbed cruise missiles at Al Qaeda camps in his nation. Omar got a mid-level diplomat on the line and spoke calmly. He suggested that Congress force President Bill Clinton to resign. He said that American military strikes “would be counter-productive,” and would “spark more, not less, terrorist attacks,” according to a declassified record of the call. “Omar emphasized that this was his best advice,” the record adds.

That was the first and last time that Omar spoke to an American government official, as far as is known. Before September 11th, some of his deputies had occasionally spoken with U.S. diplomats, but afterward the United States rejected direct talks with Taliban leaders, on the ground that they were as much to blame for terrorism as Al Qaeda was. Last year, however, as the U.S.-led Afghan ground war passed its ninth anniversary, and Mullah Omar remained in hiding, presumably in Pakistan, a small number of officials in the Obama Administration—among them the late Richard Holbrooke, the special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan—argued that it was time to try talking to the Taliban again.

Holbrooke’s final diplomatic achievement, it turns out, was to see this advice accepted. The Obama Administration has entered into direct, secret talks with senior Afghan Taliban leaders, several people briefed about the talks told me last week. The discussions are continuing; they are of an exploratory nature and do not yet amount to a peace negotiation. That may take some time: the first secret talks between the United States and representatives of North Vietnam took place in 1968; the Paris Peace Accords, intended to end direct U.S. military involvement in the war, were not agreed on until 1973.

When asked for comment on the talks, a White House spokesman said that the remarks that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made last Friday at the Asia Society offered a “thorough representation of the U.S. position.” Clinton had tough words for the Taliban, saying that they were confronted with a choice between political compromise and ostracism as “an enemy of the international community.” She added, “I know that reconciling with an adversary that can be as brutal as the Taliban sounds distasteful, even unimaginable. And diplomacy would be easy if we only had to talk to our friends. But that is not how one makes peace. President Reagan understood that when he sat down with the Soviets. And Richard Holbrooke made this his life’s work. He negotiated face to face with Milosevic and ended a war.”

Mullah Omar is not a participant in the preliminary talks. He does not attend even secret meetings of underground Taliban leadership councils in Pakistani safe houses. When he does speak, he does so obliquely, via cassette tapes. One purpose of the talks initiated by the Obama Administration, therefore, is to assess which figures in the Taliban’s leadership, if any, might be willing to engage in formal Afghan peace negotiations, and under what conditions.

Obama’s war advisers previously made it clear that the Afghan President, Hamid Karzai, must lead any high-level peace or “reconciliation” process involving Taliban leaders, and, since 2008, Karzai has carried out sporadic talks with current and former Taliban, occasionally aided by Saudi Arabia, but to no end. Last summer, the Afghan government’s attempts produced a farcical con, when a man posed as a senior Taliban leader and fleeced his handlers for cash. The recent American talks are intended to prime more successful and durable negotiations led by Karzai. The United States would play a supporting role in these negotiations, and might join them to discuss the status of Taliban prisoners in U.S. custody or the future of international forces in Afghanistan. For the United States, the overarching goal of such negotiations would be to persuade at least some important Taliban leaders to break with Al Qaeda, leave the battlefield, and participate in Afghan electoral politics, without touching off violence by anti-Taliban groups or gutting the rights enjoyed by minorities and women.

Although the Taliban’s record is nothing like Al Qaeda’s, they have aided international terrorism; in 2000, for example, they facilitated the escape of the murderous hijackers of an Indian Airlines passenger plane. As Hillary Clinton indicated, the morality of talking to them at all, given their history of violence and repression, is debated within the Administration, as it is within the Afghan government. But in both countries there is also hope for an honorable path to end the war.

The pursuit of peace, however, can be just as risky as the prosecution of war. If mismanaged, full-blown Afghan peace talks might ignite a civil war along ethnic lines. (The Taliban draw their support from Afghanistan’s Pashtuns; the most vehement anti-Taliban militias are non-Pashtun.) Also, the Taliban and their historical benefactors in Pakistan, the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate, the spy agency directed by the Pakistani military, have an almost unblemished record of overreaching in Afghan affairs, by funding and arming client militias, and there is no reason to think that their habits would change if serious negotiations unfolded. And, even under the best of circumstances, an Afghan peace process would most likely mirror the present character of the war: a slow, complicated, and deathly grind, atomized and menaced by interference from neighboring governments—not just Pakistan’s but also those of Iran, India, Russia, Uzbekistan, and China.

The Taliban today are diverse and fractured. Some old-school leaders, who served in Mullah Omar’s cabinet or as governors during the nineteen-nineties, belong to a council known as the Quetta Shura, named for the Pakistani city in which many Taliban have enjoyed sanctuary since 2001. This is the group whose members are thought to be most ready to consider coming in from the cold. Other factions, such as the Haqqani network, based in North Waziristan, which has long-standing ties to the I.S.I., are regarded as more malicious and more susceptible to Pakistan’s control. Inside Afghanistan, young Taliban commanders fight locally and often viciously, oblivious of international diplomacy. Yalta this is not.

Nonetheless, the Obama Administration has understandably concluded that the status quo is untenable. The war has devolved into a strategic stalemate: urban Afghan populations enjoy reasonable security, millions of schoolgirls are back in class, Al Qaeda cannot operate, and the Taliban cannot return to power, yet in the provinces ethnic militias and criminal gangs still husband weapons, cadge international funds, and exploit the weak. Neither the United States nor the Taliban can achieve its stated aims by arms alone, and the Administration lacks a sure way to preserve the gains made while reducing its military presence, as it must, for fiscal, political, and many other reasons.

If giving peace talks a chance can decrease the violence and shrink the Afghan battlefield by twenty or even ten per cent, President Obama will have calculated correctly: even a partly successful negotiation might help create political conditions that favor the reduction of American forces to a more sustainable level. A Taliban-endorsed ceasefire, to build confidence around long-term talks supported by many international governments, might also be conceivable.

Last spring, in Kabul, several former Taliban leaders told me that some exiled senior Taliban in Pakistan wanted the United States to leave Afghanistan but, at the same time, they preferred to talk with the Americans directly about the country’s future, both to escape I.S.I. manipulation and because they regarded Karzai as a weak puppet. As long as the Obama Administration refused to join in the talks, progress would be impossible, they told me. “It’s just the Americans,” Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban’s former ambassador to Pakistan, said. “They are not ready to make positive progress.”

At that point, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and military commanders, such as Admiral Michael Mullen, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, argued that Obama’s “surge” of troops needed more time to inflict morale-sapping damage on the Taliban; their theory was that Taliban leaders would take peace talks seriously only when they felt sufficiently battered. Last year, American-led forces killed or captured scores of mid-level Taliban commanders. General David Petraeus said recently that counterinsurgency efforts in the Taliban strongholds of Helmand and Kandahar provinces had pushed the guerrillas back. It was these perceived military gains that influenced the Administration’s decision to enter into direct talks.

Confidentiality has its place in statecraft, and if Afghanistan’s war is to be resolved it will require some quiet dealmaking, but there is something unsavory about secret talks as a mechanism for drawing the Taliban into politics. Afghanistan has suffered heavily enough from the covert designs of outside powers. Negotiations with the Taliban must eventually be transparent, so that the Afghans themselves can examine them. And more than a deal with Taliban leaders will be called for. American efforts to calm the violence will succeed only if they are part of a broader strategy in Afghanistan and South Asia, one that gives priority to economic development, energy links, water, and regional peacemaking, including in the conflict between India and Pakistan.

It is past time for the United States to shift some of its capacity for risk-taking in the war off the battlefield and into diplomacy aimed at reinforcing Afghan political unity, neutrality, civil rights, and social cohesion. The recent talks are nevertheless a constructive step. For too long, American political strategy in Afghanistan has been subordinate to military and intelligence operations. Thinking and learning through principled discussions with an enemy is an opportunity, not a trap. ♦



Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/02/28/110228taco_talk_coll?printable=true#ixzz1ERwy4IwN


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FAIL


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what exactly out of this huge article is a fail to you?