Hawaii considers banning toy gun sales to kids

[tonymctones]

Shold we do away with supersoakers?

good question...

[Mr. Magoo]

just trying to show where your logic takes us...you cant look at things in a bubble magoo...

but for the sake of this thats fine well stay in your defined imaginary bubble...

what specific harm do you attribute to toy guns?

It's not looking at things in a bubble. It's keeping focus on the main issue.

The harm of toy guns is that they are made to look like exact duplicates of items who sole purpose is to kill things (animals included; I'm looking at the aggregate- not the same population that actually only uses guns for target practice) These duplicate guns are put into the hands of children where they are exposed to the world of guns. These children go around pointing the gun and pulling the trigger at things (family members and friends) and they consider this to be "play". I know this for a fact, I grew up playing cowboys and Indians and "War" and I had the largest collection of those pop guns with the red things in it to make it sound like an actual gun. I know of several children as young as 2-3 that carry a BB gun around and point it at their parents and pull the trigger while laughing. Imagine if the child got ahold of a real gun, they would not be able to tell the difference. In the south where I live (as does Showstoppa) it's realistic that every household has at least one gun if not many. If the child got ahold of a real gun without all those hours of practice on a fake one, they wouldn't be so eager to pull the trigger. There are tons of articles like this that are common on news stations around here and I know of several children that died from this. It is not worth the gamble. The benefits do not outweigh the cost. The possibilities of desensitizing children to something as dangerous as guns is not worth it. I think a similar example would be, would you expose your 2 year old child to toy cigarettes or toy drugs? I think most people wouldnt ever consider doing that; yet they continue to expose children to guns because it's always been like that and people don't usually question habit.

[Mr. Magoo]

Shold we do away with supersoakers?

No I would not do away with supersoakers or nerf guns. These are not exact duplicates of real life guns that have the possibility of killing someone if put into a mistaken child's hands.

[Soul Crusher]

It's not looking at things in a bubble. It's keeping focus on the main issue.

The harm of toy guns is that they are made to look like exact duplicates of items who sole purpose is to kill things (animals included; I'm looking at the aggregate- not the same population that actually only uses guns for target practice) These duplicate guns are put into the hands of children where they are exposed to the world of guns. These children go around pointing the gun and pulling the trigger at things (family members and friends) and they consider this to be "play". I know this for a fact, I grew up playing cowboys and Indians and "War" and I had the largest collection of those pop guns with the red things in it to make it sound like an actual gun. I know of several children as young as 2-3 that carry a BB gun around and point it at their parents and pull the trigger while laughing. Imagine if the child got ahold of a real gun, they would not be able to tell the difference. In the south where I live (as does Showstoppa) it's realistic that every household has at least one gun if not many. If the child got ahold of a real gun without all those hours of practice on a fake one, they wouldn't be so eager to pull the trigger. There are tons of articles like this that are common on news stations around here and I know of several children that died from this. It is not worth the gamble. The benefits do not outweigh the cost. The possibilities of desensitizing children to something as dangerous as guns is not worth it. I think a similar example would be, would you expose your 2 year old child to toy cigarettes or toy drugs? I think most people wouldnt ever consider doing that; yet that continue to expose children to guns because it's always been like that and people don't usually question habit.

Shold we ban paintball guns?

[Mr. Magoo]

Shold we ban paintball guns?

The paintball guns I have seen look very weird, they look unlike guns that would be found in a home. So no, we should not ban paintball guns. However, I do not play paintball and never have so maybe there are similar looking guns but I am not aware of them.

[tonymctones]

It's not looking at things in a bubble. It's keeping focus on the main issue.

The harm of toy guns is that they are made to look like exact duplicates of items who sole purpose is to kill things (animals included; I'm looking at the aggregate- not the same population that actually only uses guns for target practice) These duplicate guns are put into the hands of children where they are exposed to the world of guns. These children go around pointing the gun and pulling the trigger at things (family members and friends) and they consider this to be "play". I know this for a fact, I grew up playing cowboys and Indians and "War" and I had the largest collection of those pop guns with the red things in it to make it sound like an actual gun. I know of several children as young as 2-3 that carry a BB gun around and point it at their parents and pull the trigger while laughing. Imagine if the child got ahold of a real gun, they would not be able to tell the difference. In the south where I live (as does Showstoppa) it's realistic that every household has at least one gun if not many. If the child got ahold of a real gun without all those hours of practice on a fake one, they wouldn't be so eager to pull the trigger. There are tons of articles like this that are common on news stations around here and I know of several children that died from this. It is not worth the gamble. The benefits do not outweigh the cost. The possibilities of desensitizing children to something as dangerous as guns is not worth it. I think a similar example would be, would you expose your 2 year old child to toy cigarettes or toy drugs? I think most people wouldnt ever consider doing that; yet they continue to expose children to guns because it's always been like that and people don't usually question habit.

its looking at things in a bubble magoo plain and simple...

so youre big thing is that they might pick up a real gun and accidentally shoot someone with it thinking its a real gun?

thats where your problem stems from?

[tonymctones]

The paintball guns I have seen look very weird, they look unlike guns that would be found in a home. So no, we should not ban paintball guns. However, I do not play paintball and never have so maybe there are similar looking guns but I am not aware of them.

LOL here you go magoo

http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/paintball-gunmarker-c-21.html

plenty of real looking guns in paintball

[Mr. Magoo]

its looking at things in a bubble magoo plain and simple...

so youre big thing is that they might pick up a real gun and accidentally shoot someone with it thinking its a real gun?

thats where your problem stems from?

Yes. That and the desensitisation of guns for when they do come into contact with real guns, which is related. I know families where this has happened and have heard about it happening a lot. It's a real problem.

[Mr. Magoo]

LOL here you go magoo

http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/paintball-gunmarker-c-21.html

plenty of real looking guns in paintball

i just googled some images, and all I've seen before are the real cheap paintball guns. Paintball guns is a bit more complicated because it's usually teenagers (I think?) that play paintball, so they are not impressionable children to the same degree that 2-6 year olds are. But if impressionable children will be playing paintball, then the guns that are made to look like real guns are not necessary.

[tonymctones]

Yes. That and the desensitisation of guns for when they do come into contact with real guns, which is related. I know families where this has happened and have heard about it happening a lot. It's a real problem.

LOL there are plenty of stories of kids who have never handled a gun finding one and shooting a friend or family member as well...

sorry magoo that logic doesnt stick, you can educate children about real guns...

toy guns also have appropriate ages for children and the onus is on the parents to do the right thing.

sounds like you have less of a problem with toy guns and more of a problem with bad parents an you have misplaced your frustration.

I grew up in a household with toy guns, bb guns and real guns and knew the difference and that I was not allowed under any circumstances to handle a real or bb gun without my dad and guess what I PAID ATTENTION...

[tonymctones]

i just googled some images, and all I've seen before are the real cheap paintball guns. Paintball guns is a bit more complicated because it's usually teenagers (I think?) that play paintball, so they are not impressionable children to the same degree that 2-6 year olds are. But if impressionable children will be playing paintball, then the guns that are made to look like real guns are not necessary.

show me toy guns that have age recommendations for 2 or 3 year olds...

[Soul Crusher]

show me toy guns that have age recommendations for 2 or 3 year olds...

I have handled guns most of my life,have been playing GTA for years, had BB's guns, now have AR's, AK, glocks, 870's, etc, yet never shot anyone.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

LOL there are plenty of stories of kids who have never handled a gun finding one and shooting a friend or family member as well...

sorry magoo that logic doesnt stick, you can educate children about real guns...

toy guns also have appropriate ages for children and the onus is on the parents to do the right thing.

sounds like you have less of a problem with toy guns and more of a problem with bad parents an you have misplaced your frustration.

I grew up in a household with toy guns, bb guns and real guns and knew the difference and that I was not allowed under any circumstances to handle a real or bb gun without my dad and guess what I PAID ATTENTION...

Yes there are stories, but the exceptions does not disprove the aggregate. The logic does stick. I'm looking at on a whole. The benefits of saved lives and prevention of unnecessary deaths outweigh the "joy" your 3 year old might get from pretending to kill you while playing toy guns.

Toy guns does have an appropriate age limit. But let's face reality, not many people know offhand what those ages are. Both me, you, and showstoppa grew up with a ton of toy guns, can you say without looking up what the age appropriate on those guns were? I know I cant, because nobody paid attention to it. Crossing one's fingers and hoping for parents to be better and more engaged in what toys are appropriate for their children is wishing for a longshot, in reality that is not likely to happen. Just because me and you both grew up with toy guns, BB guns, real guns, etc, does not mean that it's okay for anyone. I just can't picture myself telling a father that I know who lost his little boy due to a gun accident that despite his dead child, all children should still be given toy guns that look exactly like real guns.

Why can't you just agree to the idea that they should make toy guns look extremely toy like and not life like. What is necessary about having a toy gun that is identical to a real one? This would work in teaching young children the difference between their own "gun" and their dad's gun. If a life is saved, isn't it worth it? How many lives would have to be saved before you would admit that something needs to be done?

[Mr. Magoo]

I have handled guns most of my life,have been playing GTA for years, had BB's guns, now have AR's, AK, glocks, 870's, etc, yet never shot anyone.

 

Your argument doesn't work. The outliers do not disprove the aggregate. For example, just because you may have been spanked as a child and did not grow up to commit criminal acts does not prove that the majority of children spanked do grow up to commit crimes.

[Soul Crusher]

Your argument doesn't work. The outliers do not disprove the aggregate. For example, just because you may have been spanked as a child and did not grow up to commit criminal acts does not prove that the majority of children spanked do grow up to commit crimes.

So i am the extreme, or is it the other way around? 

Most of my buddys are armed to the teeth with AR's, AK's, 870's, Glocks,etc yet never harmed a person.   Should we make policy based upon the .00000001% of fuck ups?     

[tonymctones]

Your argument doesn't work. The outliers do not disprove the aggregate. For example, just because you may have been spanked as a child and did not grow up to commit criminal acts does not prove that the majority of children spanked do grow up to commit crimes.

LOL youre examples are the OUTLIERS broham...

there are thousands of guns in this country how many kids accidently shoot a family member?

[Mr. Magoo]

LOL youre examples are the OUTLIERS broham...

there are thousands of guns in this country how many kids accidently shoot a family member?

too many.

The point of the post to 333 was that his own lack of not killing (his "joy") does not outweigh the cost of those that do kill (those that suffer).

He can't base policy on his own experience.

[Soul Crusher]

too many.

The point of the post to 333 was that his own lack of not killing (his "joy") does not outweigh the cost of those that do kill (those that suffer).

He can't base policy on his own experience.

My post is based on the fact that 50% of homes have firearm and that incidents are an anomoly if you consider everything in scale.     

[Mr. Magoo]

My post is based on the fact that 50% of homes have firearm and that incidents are an anomoly if you consider everything in scale.     

See above post:

"Why can't you just agree to the idea that they should make toy guns look extremely toy like and not life like. What is necessary about having a toy gun that is identical to a real one? This would work in teaching young children the difference between their own "gun" and their dad's gun. If a life is saved, isn't it worth it? How many lives would have to be saved before you would admit that something needs to be done?"

[Soul Crusher]

See above post:

"Why can't you just agree to the idea that they should make toy guns look extremely toy like and not life like. What is necessary about having a toy gun that is identical to a real one? This would work in teaching young children the difference between their own "gun" and their dad's gun. If a life is saved, isn't it worth it? How many lives would have to be saved before you would admit that something needs to be done?"

I have no problem with the painting the whole toy orange or yellow stuff and think that is a good thing tbh.   Just my .02   

[tonymctones]

too many.

The point of the post to 333 was that his own lack of not killing (his "joy") does not outweigh the cost of those that do kill (those that suffer).

He can't base policy on his own experience.

and you cant base policy on your own opinion...

FACT is the VAST MAJORITY of gun owners dont wind up with someone shot in their family by a kid who mistook the gun for a fake one...

so why do you feel you have a valid basis for youre argument to ban toy guns?

[Mr. Magoo]

and you cant base policy on your own opinion...

FACT is the VAST MAJORITY of gun owners dont wind up with someone shot in their family by a kid who mistook the gun for a fake one...

so why do you feel you have a valid basis for youre argument to ban toy guns?

because it will save lives, and lives are important. I dont know why you keep insisting that as long as less than 50% of gun owners die, then it's okay. Banning toy guns (assuming the toy gun is an exact duplicate of a real gun, which goes back to the compromise that me and 333 were willing to make) may save lives. I believe the benefit (saving lives/avoiding the desensitization) is much higher than the cost (your child might not be able to play Army with a toy designed to look like a real gun). I don't understand why you disagree with that cost/benefit analysis. What value do you place on children playing with toy guns that look identical to real guns? 

[tonymctones]

because it will save lives, and lives are important. I dont know why you keep insisting that as long as less than 50% of gun owners die, then it's okay. Banning toy guns (assuming the toy gun is an exact duplicate of a real gun, which goes back to the compromise that me and 333 were willing to make) may save lives. I believe the benefit (saving lives/avoiding the desensitization) is much higher than the cost (your child might not be able to play Army with a toy designed to look like a real gun). I don't understand why you disagree with that cost/benefit analysis. What value do you place on children playing with toy guns that look identical to real guns? 

LOL first off its way lower than 50%...

give me the numbers that you feel are so appaling magoo....how many kids end up killing someone b/c they thought a real gun was a fake one...

secondly like I said if im not mistaken its illegal to sale toy guns without an orange tip...meaning THEY ARE NOT IDENTICAL...are you ok with selling them as long as they have orange tips?
LOL this is going to be good 

[Mr. Magoo]

LOL first off its way lower than 50%...

give me the numbers that you feel are so appaling magoo....how many kids end up killing someone b/c they thought a real gun was a fake one...

secondly like I said if im not mistaken its illegal to sale toy guns without an orange tip...meaning THEY ARE NOT IDENTICAL...are you ok with selling them as long as they have orange tips?
LOL this is going to be good 

I don't think the orange tip is enough. Because it still happens. I don't know the numbers but I have seen many stories in local papers in the past few months at least, not counting what I know first hand. I am advocating that high numbers are not needed in order to take action. I said earlier "how many children must die before you think this is an important issue?" the point being that if it saves one life, then it is worth it to me. The benefit of saving one life outweighs the "joy" that might come from every child in this country playing with a toy gun that strongly resembles a real gun to the degree where children can easily mistake a real one for a fake one (that is the crucial point).

[tonymctones]

I don't think the orange tip is enough. Because it still happens. I don't know the numbers but I have seen many stories in local papers in the past few months at least, not counting what I know first hand. I am advocating that high numbers are not needed in order to take action. I said earlier "how many children must die before you think this is an important issue?" the point being that if it saves one life, then it is worth it to me. The benefit of saving one life outweighs the "joy" that might come from every child in this country playing with a toy gun that strongly resembles a real gun to the degree where children can easily mistake a real one for a fake one (that is the crucial point).

LOL well one or two idiots do not make a good backing for your case...

FACT of the matter is the cases your talking about are very very VERY OBSCURE...

so no banning all toy guns so that a few idiots can live safely is not a good idea...

now if you will burst the imaginary bubble youre in and see where your logic leads magoo