Hawaii considers banning toy gun sales to kids

[tonymctones]

I don't think the orange tip is enough. Because it still happens. I don't know the numbers but I have seen many stories in local papers in the past few months at least, not counting what I know first hand. I am advocating that high numbers are not needed in order to take action. I said earlier "how many children must die before you think this is an important issue?" the point being that if it saves one life, then it is worth it to me. The benefit of saving one life outweighs the "joy" that might come from every child in this country playing with a toy gun that strongly resembles a real gun to the degree where children can easily mistake a real one for a fake one (that is the crucial point).

too many.

The point of the post to 333 was that his own lack of not killing (his "joy") does not outweigh the cost of those that do kill (those that suffer).

He can't base policy on his own experience.

[Mr. Magoo]

LOL well one or two idiots do not make a good backing for your case...

FACT of the matter is the cases your talking about are very very VERY OBSCURE...

so no banning all toy guns so that a few idiots can live safely is not a good idea...

now if you will burst the imaginary bubble youre in and see where your logic leads magoo 

you're wrong. It is much larger than "one or two". Unfortunately, a child mistaking a real gun for a toy gun is very common (remember michael moore talking about the one case in his hometown in Michigan not long after columbine where a 5 year old thought a real gun was a toy gun, brought it to school, and shot a classmate? That was discussed about in a major documentary, my examples are just what appears in a local southern newspaper or local online news website). You also have to consider the desensitization issue as well that don't show up necessary in dead bodies count. Yes banning toy guns (or do what me and 333 agreed upon which is to make toy guns more "toyish" and less "gunish") to save lives is a good idea because it is good to prevent unnecessary pain or harm.

[Mr. Magoo]

He was denying the existence of a problem. I said that because he has never seen a problem is not a reason to say that a problem doesn't exist.

[tonymctones]

you're wrong. It is much larger than "one or two". Unfortunately, a child mistaking a real gun for a toy gun is very common (remember michael moore talking about the one case in his hometown in Michigan not long after columbine where a 5 year old thought a real gun was a toy gun, brought it to school, and shot a classmate? That was discussed about in a major documentary, my examples are just what appears in a local southern newspaper or local online news website). You also have to consider the desensitization issue as well that don't show up necessary in dead bodies count. Yes banning toy guns (or do what me and 333 agreed upon which is to make toy guns more "toyish" and less "gunish") to save lives is a good idea because it is good to prevent unnecessary pain or harm.

LOL so youre source is michael moore? HAHAHHAAH

sorry bro you cant produce any number, only can say "Ive seen it to many times"...well ive never seen it once so...I guess we even out 

LOL again it seems like you have a problem with bad parents not toy guns and have misplaced your frustration...

[tonymctones]

He was denying the existence of a problem. I said that because he has never seen a problem is not a reason to say that a problem doesn't exist.

and im quoting you b/c you seem to think this is an epidemic but cant provide any figures...only your personal experiences and the personal experience of MICHAEL MOORE lmfao

[Mr. Magoo]

LOL so youre source is michael moore? HAHAHHAAH

sorry bro you cant produce any number, only can say "Ive seen it to many times"...well ive never seen it once so...I guess we even out 

LOL again it seems like you have a problem with bad parents not toy guns and have misplaced your frustration...

michael moore is not a source. Michael Moore famously gave an example which I thought you must have heard before now and he talked about the same problem I'm talking about. The issue is out there, it's real. I don't know why you keep laughing in your posts (That's a logic fallacy to try to win an argument btw, laughing to make it seem less serious). I can't produce a number because I haven't done any research on it. If i did do research, I'm pretty confident that numbers could come up. But my point is that a "majority" is arbitrary. Lives should not be saved only when shed in the light of being large or in a "majority". I have a problem with both bad parents and the existence of toy guns made deliberately to look like real guns (I think both issues deserved to be addressed). Whether or not the death toll is in the millions, thousands, or hundreds, or even tens, these are all unnecessary, preventable deaths, and to not take action to prevent preventable deaths is, I believe, immoral. It is our duty to prevent unneeded deaths.

[Mr. Magoo]

and im quoting you b/c you seem to think this is an epidemic but cant provide any figures...only your personal experiences and the personal experience of MICHAEL MOORE lmfao

I never said it was an epidemic. I said it was a real problem that can be easily solved without much cost, therefore it should be solved.

[tonymctones]

michael moore is not a source. Michael Moore famously gave an example which I thought you must have heard before now and he talked about the same problem I'm talking about. The issue is out there, it's real. I don't know why you keep laughing in your posts (That's a logic fallacy to try to win an argument btw, laughing to make it seem less serious). I can't produce a number because I haven't done any research on it. If i did do research, I'm pretty confident that numbers could come up. But my point is that a "majority" is arbitrary. Lives should not be saved only when shed in the light of being large or in a "majority". I have a problem with both bad parents and the existence of toy guns made deliberately to look like real guns (I think both issues deserved to be addressed). Whether or not the death toll is in the millions, thousands, or hundreds, or even tens, these are all unnecessary, preventable deaths, and to not take action to prevent preventable deaths is, I believe, immoral. It is our duty to prevent unneeded deaths.

LOL so b/c michael moore has one example and you have a few, we should ban all toy guns?

LOL like I said youre argument is erroneous b/c its a very very VERY OBSCURE scenario

no you should not inconvinence millions in order to keep a few idiots from making mistakes...

[tonymctones]

I never said it was an epidemic. I said it was a real problem that can be easily solved without much cost, therefore it should be solved.

what constitutes a real problem magoo?

please give me an idea of how many times you think this happens in a year...

[Mr. Magoo]

LOL so b/c michael moore has one example and you have a few, we should ban all toy guns?

LOL like I said youre argument is erroneous b/c its a very very VERY OBSCURE scenario

no you should not inconvinence millions in order to keep a few idiots from making mistakes...

It is not an inconvenience to make toy guns more toyish. I doubt anyone agrees with you that children have a "right" to play with toy guns that are similar to real guns. Therefore, making the toys less real looking is not an inconvenience or a "burden" in any way.

[Mr. Magoo]

what constitutes a real problem magoo?

please give me an idea of how many times you think this happens in a year...

a real problem is when people die in unnecessary, easily preventable deaths that can be solved without much cost. This issue falls under that category.

In response to your second part: Do I really have to discuss how numbers are arbitrary again? The existence of numbers is what is important, not how many digits there are in a given number.

[tonymctones]

It is not an inconvenience to make toy guns more toyish. I doubt anyone agrees with you that children have a "right" to play with toy guns that are similar to real guns. Therefore, making the toys less real looking is not an inconvenience or a "burden" in any way.

they are already distinguishable between real guns...

how many real guns you know that have orange tips?

[tonymctones]

a real problem is when people die in unnecessary, easily preventable deaths that can be solved without much cost. This issue falls under that category.

In response to your second part: Do I really have to discuss how numbers are arbitrary again? The existence of numbers is what is important, not how many digits there are in a given number.

LOL that same logic could apply to all toys brain child

the numbers arent arbitrary b/c again a few idiots do not determine what 99.99% of the population should do or not do...

[Mr. Magoo]

they are already distinguishable between real guns...

how many real guns you know that have orange tips?

That is not enough because impressionable children are still making the mistake of confusing the two. You seriously look at how realistic toy guns are becoming to real guns (for example: the picture posted in the article on page 1) and think a tiny orange circle in the end of the barrel is enough for a child to know the difference? Why can't you agree that more measures are needed, such as painting them yellow or designing them different from real guns, etc.

[tonymctones]

That is not enough because impressionable children are still making the mistake of confusing the two. You seriously look at how realistic toy guns are becoming to real guns (for example: the picture posted in the article on page 1) and think a tiny orange circle in the end of the barrel is enough for a child to know the difference? Why can't you agree that more measures are needed, such as painting them yellow or designing them different from real guns, etc.

id be fine with painting them all orange or some other color the designs no

[Mr. Magoo]

id be fine with painting them all orange or some other color the designs no

k we agree on the colors

now why do you think it's necessary for that gun on page 1 of this article to be designed that similar to an AK-47 (Should toy guns really resemble real guns (i.e. should I have been able to automatically tell what real gun that toy gun is based on)?

[tonymctones]

k we agree on the colors

now why do you think it's necessary for that gun on page 1 of this article to be designed that similar to an AK-47 (Should toy guns really resemble real guns (i.e. should I have been able to automatically tell what real gun that toy gun is based on)?

I dont see a problem with the design if you can tell by other means its a fake gun...

[tonymctones]

question for you magoo, you say numbers are arbitrary...

so say just 1 child made the mistake, you feel thats enough to ban all toy guns for every other child?

[Mr. Magoo]

question for you magoo, you say numbers are arbitrary...

so say just 1 child made the mistake, you feel thats enough to ban all toy guns for every other child?

It would depend on the circumstances (for example: How likely will children in the future make the same mistake)

But if one death could be easily prevented (By painting toy guns yellow, it would prevent a 5 year old child three years from now from picking up a real gun while thinking it's a toy and shoot his parent) then yes that death deserves to be prevented. Low cost (painting toy guns yellow) - High benefit (saving the life of that child's parent). I don't think enjoyment of toy guns by children will decline significantly (if any) if the guns are yellow or whatever.

[Mr. Magoo]

I dont see a problem with the design if you can tell by other means its a fake gun...

I don't think a child would be able to quickly tell the difference between that toy gun and a similar real AK47 (same size and color). I don't think the orange tip is the deal breaker in a child's mind between "it's okay to play with" and "this is a deadly weapon and I should stay away."

[tonymctones]

It would depend on the circumstances (for example: How likely will children in the future make the same mistake)

But if one death could be easily prevented (By painting toy guns yellow, it would prevent a 5 year old child three years from now from picking up a real gun while thinking it's a toy and shoot his parent) then yes that death deserves to be prevented. Low cost (painting toy guns yellow) - High benefit (saving the life of that child's parent). I don't think enjoyment of toy guns by children will decline significantly (if any) if the guns are yellow or whatever.

lol will you please link me to one of these prevelant incidents that you feel bolster your argument

[tonymctones]

I don't think a child would be able to quickly tell the difference between that toy gun and a similar real AK47 (same size and color). I don't think the orange tip is the deal breaker in a child's mind between "it's okay to play with" and "this is a deadly weapon and I should stay away."

I could, my friends could, tons of kids across the nation can...

its up to the parent that buy them those toys to explain the difference and the consequences...

again you have a problem with shitty parents not toy guns...

[Soul Crusher]

My issue is not w the kids, but the trigger happy cops who would cap one of these kids running around with these things.

[Mr. Magoo]

lol will you please link me to one of these prevelant incidents that you feel bolster your argument

google "mistaken, toy gun" and look at the news articles. There are a lot more than I thought. You can see for yourself.

[tonymctones]

My issue is not w the kids, but the trigger happy cops who would cap one of these kids running around with these things.

THIS is a credible argument...