Author Topic: Obama's illegal war  (Read 67104 times)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #200 on: March 23, 2011, 10:04:31 AM »
I'm 10000% against any US involvement in Libya.  I said as sad as it was, we should have let him kill the armed rebels (who were in fact trying a govt overthrow), and it would be back to peaceful libya trade partners now.

However, when obama does it anyway, I like to analyze WHY and look at the political ramifications.  i can only say "I'm against US involvement" so many times before I grow bored and like to talk about higher level motivations, etc.

If Gadaffi prevails - how will this look for bama?

240 is Back

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #201 on: March 23, 2011, 10:05:25 AM »
we shouldn't be in any of these countries.

however, if you compare it to the initial phases of iraq - brutal shock n awe... 1700 sorties... 500 cruise missiles.

it's cheap!

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #202 on: March 23, 2011, 10:06:09 AM »
we shouldn't be in any of these countries.

however, if you compare it to the initial phases of iraq - brutal shock n awe... 1700 sorties... 500 cruise missiles.

it's cheap!

 ::)

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #203 on: March 23, 2011, 10:08:17 AM »
If Gadaffi prevails - how will this look for bama?

shitty if kadaffi stays.

and if kadaffi flees/killed, it will mean obama got one of the most wanted terrorists on earth.

However, kadaffi was on the ropes and needed foreign paid fighters just to stay alive a month ago.  The $ pipeline is gonna dry up.  And foreign mercs might be happy to kill local rebels with sticks for a paycheck... but how many of them will now take the check and leave before US cruise missiles cook them?  How many mercs will fight to the death, given the US reputation and power?  My guess is, not many...

Wait til his october surprise... imagine him pulling osama out of the basement and asking Candidate Palin what she would have done differently.

Fury

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #204 on: March 23, 2011, 10:20:12 AM »
shitty if kadaffi stays.

and if kadaffi flees/killed, it will mean obama got one of the most wanted terrorists on earth.

However, kadaffi was on the ropes and needed foreign paid fighters just to stay alive a month ago.  The $ pipeline is gonna dry up.  And foreign mercs might be happy to kill local rebels with sticks for a paycheck... but how many of them will now take the check and leave before US cruise missiles cook them?  How many mercs will fight to the death, given the US reputation and power?  My guess is, not many...

Wait til his october surprise... imagine him pulling osama out of the basement and asking Candidate Palin what she would have done differently.

Actually, it was reported on the John Batchelor show last night that Gadhafi has enough gold in reserve to fund an insurgency until the end of time. He's not running out of money anytime soon.

Gadhafi leaving still isn't going to help Obama as Obama has already said removing Gadhafi wasn't the plan. This is one monumental clusterfuck and you aren't capable of spinning it.

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #205 on: March 23, 2011, 10:41:14 AM »
Actually, it was reported on the John Batchelor show last night that Gadhafi has enough gold in reserve to fund an insurgency until the end of time. He's not running out of money anytime soon.

Gadhafi leaving still isn't going to help Obama as Obama has already said removing Gadhafi wasn't the plan. This is one monumental clusterfuck and you aren't capable of spinning it.

in that case, I will concede that finance point.

What about the other point?  The fact his foreign defenders just may split as the US forces close in?  Saddam's people were fmailiy, and many of them split.  Imagine some dude from another country being asked to fight to the death.  They'll take their paychecks and split - OR - the USA will put a $25 mil bounty on his head... see how fast one of them caps him.


Fury

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #206 on: March 23, 2011, 10:47:26 AM »
in that case, I will concede that finance point.

What about the other point?  The fact his foreign defenders just may split as the US forces close in?  Saddam's people were fmailiy, and many of them split.  Imagine some dude from another country being asked to fight to the death.  They'll take their paychecks and split - OR - the USA will put a $25 mil bounty on his head... see how fast one of them caps him.



Gadhafi enjoys wide support in Libya. I'd even say that the "rebels" don't even make up 50% of the people there (probably more like 25%). If he goes there isn't anything to say that Libya won't devolve into a massive civil war as the dominant tribes in that country don't like each other.

No one knows dick about these rebels and they couldn't possibly be more disorganized. This whole endeavor has disaster written all over it.

What will be your excuse then?  ::)

andreisdaman

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #207 on: March 23, 2011, 11:11:20 AM »
:o

I thought you were supposed to be a man of God and you show a picture like this???

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #208 on: March 23, 2011, 11:12:29 AM »
I thought you were supposed to be a man of God and you show a picture like this???

Obama is supposed to be a man of faith and launches missles on people, tortures, etc?


NO BLOOD FOR OIL!   

andreisdaman

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #209 on: March 23, 2011, 11:13:48 AM »
Obama is supposed to be a man of faith and launches missles on people, tortures, etc?


NO BLOOD FOR OIL!   

Don't be a dummy...Bush was a man of faith as well.......

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #210 on: March 23, 2011, 01:50:19 PM »
Navy chief: We’re not sure what the next stage is in Libya
hot air ^ | 3/23/11 | Allahpundit



He’ll be handing over leadership of the mission to someone at some point, but the details are still as vague and gassy as one of those “jobs created or saved” graphs.

Adm. Gary Roughead, the Chief of Naval Operations, said that he has received no guidance on the path ahead for command and control of the no-fly zone, no-drive zone, no-sail zone, arms embargo enforcement, and any other missions currently being managed by U.S. Africom Commander Gen. Carter Ham, who is in Germany. NATO has been battling internally over whether to take command, while the French government’s latest proposal is to set up a “political steering committee” made of Western and Arab foreign ministers…

Roughead also said there’s no guarantee that U.S. military forces would be able to decrease their presence or activities when the transition takes place. In other words, the U.S. military might give up control, but still be doing most of the work.

Not only is there no guarantee, the U.S. role in the skies over Libya has actually increased this week. Danger Room crunches the numbers: On Monday, more than half of the 80 missions over Qaddafiland were flown by U.S. allies. Over the past 24 hours, of 175 missions flown, the USAF has been responsible for 113. Maybe that’s a temporary blip, part of an all-out push to obliterate Qaddafi’s air force before letting less competent air forces take the lead. (If so, it’s been a success.) Or, more ominously, maybe it’s because some of our allies lack the capacity to sustain a bombardment campaign against a tinpot dictator beyond a few days.


(Excerpt) Read more at hotair.com ...

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #211 on: March 23, 2011, 03:18:39 PM »
Speaker Boehner Letter to President Obama on Military Action in Libya
Speaker of the House of Representatives ^ | Wednesday, March 23, 2011 | John Boehner




March 23, 2011


President Barack Obama
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500


Dear Mr. President:

Thank you for your letter dated March 21, 2011, outlining your Administration’s actions regarding Libya and Operation Odyssey Dawn. The United States has long stood with those who seek freedom from oppression through self-government and an underlying structure of basic human rights. The news yesterday that a U.S. fighter jet involved in this operation crashed is a reminder of the high stakes of any military action abroad and the high price our Nation has paid in blood and treasure to advance the cause of freedom through our history.

I respect your authority as Commander-in-Chief and support our troops as they carry out their mission. But I and many other members of the House of Representatives are troubled that U.S. military resources were committed to war without clearly defining for the American people, the Congress, and our troops what the mission in Libya is and what America’s role is in achieving that mission. In fact, the limited, sometimes contradictory, case made to the American people by members of your Administration has left some fundamental questions about our engagement unanswered. At the same time, by contrast, it appears your Administration has consulted extensively on these same matters with foreign entities such as the United Nations and the Arab League.

It is my hope that you will provide the American people and Congress a clear and robust assessment of the scope, objective, and purpose of our mission in Libya and how it will be achieved. Here are some of the questions I believe must be answered:

A United Nations Security Council resolution does not substitute for a U.S. political and military strategy. You have stated that Libyan leader Muammar Qadhafi must go, consistent with U.S. policy goals. But the U.N. resolution the U.S. helped develop and signed onto makes clear that regime change is not part of this mission. In light of this contradiction, is it an acceptable outcome for Qadhafi to remain in power after the military effort concludes in Libya? If not, how will he be removed from power? Why would the U.S. commit American resources to enforcing a U.N. resolution that is inconsistent with our stated policy goals and national interests?

In announcing that our Armed Forces would lead the preliminary strikes in Libya, you said it was necessary to “enable the enforcement of a no-fly zone that will be led by our international partners.” Do we know which partners will be taking the lead? Are there clear lines of authority and responsibility and a chain of command? Operationally, does enforcement of a no-fly zone require U.S. forces to attack non-air or command and control operations for land-based battlefield activities, such as armored vehicles, tanks, and combatants?

You have said that the support of the international community was critical to your decision to strike Libya. But, like many Americans, it appears many of our coalition partners are themselves unclear on the policy goals of this mission. If the coalition dissolves or partners continue to disengage, will the American military take on an increased role? Will we disengage?

Since the stated U.S. policy goal is removing Qadhafi from power, do you have an engagement strategy for the opposition forces? If the strife in Libya becomes a protracted conflict, what are your Administration's objectives for engaging with opposition forces, and what standards must a new regime meet to be recognized by our government?

Your Administration has repeatedly said our engagement in this military action will be a matter of “days, not weeks.” After four days of U.S. military action, how soon do you expect to hand control to these other nations? After the transition to coalition forces is completed, how long will American military forces remain engaged in this action? If Qadhafi remains in power, how long will a no-fly zone will be enforced?

We are currently in the process of setting priorities for the coming year in the budget. Has the Department of Defense estimated the total cost, direct and indirect, associated with this mission? While you said yesterday that the cost of this mission could be paid for out of already-appropriated funds, do you anticipate requesting any supplemental funds from Congress to pay for ongoing operations in Libya?

Because of the conflicting messages from the Administration and our coalition partners, there is a lack of clarity over the objectives of this mission, what our national security interests are, and how it fits into our overarching policy for the Middle East. The American people deserve answers to these questions. And all of these concerns point to a fundamental question: what is your benchmark for success in Libya?

The American people take the use of military action seriously, as does the House of Representatives. It is regrettable that no opportunity was afforded to consult with Congressional leaders, as was the custom of your predecessors, before your decision as Commander-in-Chief to deploy into combat the men and women of our Armed Forces. Understanding some information required to respond may be classified, I look forward to a complete response.

Sincerely,

John A. Boehner


Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #212 on: March 23, 2011, 03:52:35 PM »
BREAKING: Qaddafi Compound Struck Again, According to U.S. Military Commander (2nd time)
FOX News ^ | 3-23-2011 | NA




Just breaking across FOX now. Second time that the Qaddafi compound has been struck. Unknown if Qaddafi was present.


(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...

Fury

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #213 on: March 23, 2011, 05:13:27 PM »
Let Us Count the Ways . . .
March 23, 2011 11:03 A.M.
By Victor Davis Hanson 
Why are many conservatives against the Libyan war? Is it, as alleged, political opportunism — given their prior support for the 2001 and 2003 wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

No. Most of us support wholeheartedly our troops now that we are in, but opposed the intervention for reasons that were clear before we attacked, and are even clearer now. Among them:

1) Timing: If the administration believed this monster should have left, it should have acted when the rebels had the momentum, and not issued threats and demands for Qaddafi to go without commensurate efforts to follow such saber-rattling up. Fairly or not, the administration established a goal that it now seems to be backing away from, as it talks of toning down the operation before it is even a week old. We boasted about storming Vienna, pulled up at its outskirts, froze, and are now bewildered that someone inside actually is fighting back.

2) Approval: To start a third war in the Middle East, the president should have first gone to Congress, especially since he and Vice President Biden have compiled an entire corpus of past speeches, some quite incendiary, equating presidential military intervention without congressional approval with illegality to the point of an impeachable offense (cf. Biden’s warning to Bush over a possible Iran strike). And why boast of U.N. and Arab League approval but not seek the sanction of the U.S. Congress?

3) Consistency: Why is meddling okay in Libya but was not okay in Iran when dissidents there were likewise making headway? Is there any rationale that determines our response to unrest in Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, Iran, the Gulf, or Libya? It seems we are making it up ad hoc, always in reaction to the perceived pulse of popular demonstrations — always a hit-and-miss, day-late-dollar-short proposition.

4) Aims and Objectives: Fact: We are now and then bombing Libyan ground targets in order to enhance the chances of rebel success in removing or killing Qaddafi. Fiction: We are not offering ground support but only establishing a no-fly zone, and have no desire to force by military means Qaddafi to leave. Questions: Is our aim, then, a reformed Qaddafi? A permanently revolutionary landscape? A partitioned, bisected nation? What is the model? Afghanistan? Mogadishu? The 12-year no-fly-zone in Iraq? A Mubarak-like forced exile? Who are the rebels? Westernized reformers? Muslim Brotherhood types? A mix? Who knows? Who cares?

5) Hypocrisy: This Libyan war is transpiring in a political climate where, for the last ten years, Obama and his supporters have lectured us that it is not only amoral and unwise but illegal for America to attack an oil-producing Muslim country that does not threaten our national security, a sin magnified if committed without congressional approval. It also follows similar demagoguery on Guantanamo, renditions, tribunals, preventative detentions, etc. — measures blasted as near-criminality under Bush but embraced or expanded under Obama. In this regard, the prior rhetoric of an Eric Holder or a Harold Koh bears no resemblance to their present action — a hypocrisy that follows from the president himself.

6) Means and Ends: The monthly federal budget deficit now exceeds the yearly deficit prior to when Bush went into Iraq — at a time when we are engaged in two other Middle East theaters, gas is soaring, inflation is back, and we have borrowed $5 trillion since this administration took office.

7) Leadership: This is a Potemkin coalition, far smaller than the one that fought in either Afghanistan or Iraq, notwithstanding loud proclamations to the contrary. We are not even done with the first week of bombing, and yet no one seems in charge: What body/country/alliance determines targets, issues communiques, or coordinates diplomacy? The U.K. goes after Qaddafi, and we plead “They did it, not us”? Again, fairly or not, the impression is that Obama dressed up preponderant American intervention under a multicultural fig leaf, earning the downsides of both. A loud multilateral effort could be wise diplomacy, but not if it translates into a desire to subordinate American options and profile to European and international players that are not commensurately shouldering the burden — and not if all this is cynically used to advance a welcomed new unexceptional American profile.

When we talk of “European leadership,” we mean the U.K. and France, not Germany, Italy, or most of the EU. When we talk of the “Arab League,” we mean essentially zero military assets. And when we talk of the “U.N.,” we mean zero blue-helmeted troops. So, like it or not, there is a level of understandable cynicism that suspects Obama’s new paradigm of multilateral, international action is simply the same-old, same-old, albeit without the advantages that accrue when America is unapologetic about its leadership role, weathers the criticism, and insists on the options and prerogatives that a superpower must demand in war by virtue of its power and sacrifice.

Add the above up, and I think Team Obama will find that even Democratic diehards and neocon sympathizers will soon bail, and very soon. Like it or not, to salvage this mess, the Obama administration is going to have to get rid of Qaddafi, do it very quickly, and argue that what follows is somewhat better.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/262849/let-us-count-ways-victor-davis-hanson


Good summary of how foolish this endeavor is.

whork25

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #214 on: March 24, 2011, 02:43:53 AM »
My god you guys are pussies.

We had/have 2 shitty wars under Bush, here we actually has a rebel force fighting the dictator and they just need a helping hand.

We are preventing genocide committed by a dictator who is responsible for several terrorist acts.

And all you do is whine like a bunch of fucking liberals.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #215 on: March 24, 2011, 03:07:00 AM »
Yawn.  Genocide?  More people have been murdered in the us in the last year. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #216 on: March 24, 2011, 04:15:02 AM »
March 24, 2011
The Damning Contradictions of Obama's Attack on Libya
By Michael Barone




Let's imagine that all goes well in Libya. The rebels, protected by air strikes, recapture lost territory and sweep into Tripoli. Moammar Gadhafi and his sons one way or the other disappear.

Leaders propose a democratic and secular constitution that voters overwhelmingly approve. The first act of the duly elected government is to issue a proclamation of thanks and friendship to the United States, Britain, France and others who prevented Gadhafi's mass slaughter.

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Well, we can all dream, can't we?

But in the cold light of day, none of these happy eventualities seems very likely. As one who hopes for success in this enterprise, I am dismayed by the contradictions in the course we are following.

Some three weeks ago, Barack Obama said Gadhafi "must go." But the United Nations Security Council resolution under which we are acting stops well short of this goal.

Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen confirmed that Gadhafi may remain in power indefinitely. National Security Council staffer Ben Rhodes said, "It's not about regime change."

If not, then the purported purpose of the operation, to "protect civilians," could be of unlimited duration. Libya might well be divided between a Gadhafi regime in the west around Tripoli and a rebel regime in the east around Benghazi.

Maintaining the existence of the latter will likely require military force. Obama has conceded that the United States is currently in command of operations, but says that command will be handed off to others in "days, not weeks."

But news reports make it clear that the overwhelming majority of military forces in action are American. Putting a British or French officer in command will not change that. And putting U.S. forces under foreign command might weaken support for the enterprise here at home.

Obama's policy is reminiscent of the old saying that a camel is a horse designed by committee. The policy satisfies advocates of humanitarian intervention, like the National Security Council's Samantha Power, who remember Bill Clinton's regret that he didn't intervene to stop the slaughter in Rwanda.

Unfortunately, in order to satisfy those who oppose anything smacking of unilateralism, it took time to get the U.N. Security Council to act, so that we missed the moment when it seemed possible that recognition of a rebel government or imposition of a no-fly zone would topple Gadhafi.

That delay gave him time to launch a counterattack that made him strong enough to withstand the limited military action that could get multilateral approval.

By accepting limits on U.S. involvement, Obama aims to satisfy skeptics of military action, like Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who publicly pointed out the difficulties of maintaining a no-fly zone. We have seen this before, when Obama announced his surge in Afghanistan together with a deadline for the beginning of troop withdrawals.

The result in Libya is a policy whose means seem unlikely to produce the desired ends.

In the process, this Democratic president has jettisoned some of the basic tenets of his party's foreign policy.

"It is always preferable to have the informed consent of Congress prior to any military action," candidate Obama said in December 2007. But Congress was not informed or, it seems, consulted in any serious way about this decision to take military action in Libya.

Instead, members of Congress, like the general public, heard the president make the announcement in Rio de Janeiro. That's quite a contrast with George W. Bush, who sought and obtained congressional approval of military action in Afghanistan in September 2001 and Iraq in October 2002.

Since then, many Democrats have denounced Bush's "rush to war" in Iraq. But military action there began a full five months after Congress approved. Obama didn't wait five days after the Security Council resolution.

Bush argued that intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq was in the national interest. Obama, who has made the same argument about Afghanistan, doesn't seem to be making it about Libya. For some supporters of his policy, the absence of any great national interest makes it all the more attractive.

It's not likely to remain attractive to American voters if it fails to result in the overthrow of Gadhafi and leads to an open-ended military commitment in a nation where our vital interests are not at stake.

But a better outcome is at least possible. After all, history shows that dreams sometimes do come true.

 

Copyright 2011, Creators Syndicate Inc.

Page Printed from: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/03/24/the_damning_contradictions_of_obamas_attack_on_libya_109331.html at March 24, 2011 - 06:13:34 AM CDT

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #217 on: March 24, 2011, 04:17:28 AM »
The Middle East
Jonathan Cristol & Charles Dunne
← Time Running Out for ActionMarch 22, 2011
Down the Rabbit Hole
Adam Garfinkle


http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/middleeast/2011/03/22/down-the-rabbit-hole


 
To all appearances, U.S. foreign policy in the Obama Administration has now definitively gone down the rabbit hole. It is intoxicated with an advanced form of Wilsonian madness, one shorn of all sensitivity to the consequences of the U.S. government’s behavior. Like Alice with her pills, some things are getting or will soon get bigger—risks, mission definition and casualty figures on the ground in Libya—while others are getting smaller—our reservoir of good options, our stock of common sense and our peace of mind.

I do not invoke Lewis Carroll lightly. I do so in this case for a special reason: words we thought we all understood have now become encrusted with bizarre new meanings, or no meanings at all, as if our vocabulary has been hexed by Humpty Dumpty himself. Let me ask President Obama, Secretary of State Clinton, Samantha Power, Ben Rhodes and the rest of the crew (not to exclude accomplices like Nicholas Sarkozy, David Cameron, Ban Ki-Moon and the execrable Amr Moussa) that has steered us into this gratuitous mess, to define “civilian” for me. What does it mean, folks? Does it include fairly well organized groups of Libyans attacking in formation with machine guns mounted on flatbed pick-up trucks? Apparently so, to some spellbound souls. This turns the Clinton Administration’s amusing little tiff over what “is” is into truly small change as America’s language follies go.

Words of many kinds have been flying fast and furious over the past few days, and so have cruise missiles, bombs and bullets. Those I’ve taken most to heart are words of criticism for a policy so confused that no observer has yet been able to match the means being employed to the mission’s stated purpose. It’s not easy to say anything original at this point, but it seems to me that a simple recitation in the right order of what has already been said might be of some service to clear thinking. That recitation need be composed of just three key points.

* * *

First, the military mission lacks any realistic or coherent definition. As far as the authorizing UN resolution and President Obama have said, the mission is to protect civilians. This is a humanitarian action. But the civilians compose a political opposition locked in a literally life-and-death struggle with a frightened and ruthless regime—and it was the opposition, let us remember, that started this fight last month. We are, let us be frank, intervening in someone else’s civil war. There are no humanitarians, and very few mere civilians, in Libya right now, because the struggle has at its base a tribal conflict, which the U.S. media has managed to ignore almost in its entirety.

There is no mystery as to why the opposition arose in Benghazi, in Cyrenaica, while the capital and Qaddafi’s loyalists are mainly in the old province of Tripolitania. I frankly doubt whether the advisers egging the President on in Libya have ever heard these proper nouns before, or have heard of Sannusiya (the Sufi order movement that helped ignite Libyan opposition to Italian colonialism), or know much of anything at all about the place. For them, the history of the region seems to have begun in December 2010, when Mohammed Bouazzi immolated himself in Tunis. And surely the Western laws-of-war distinction between soldiers and civilians is universal, right?

U.S. policy, on its face, suggests the absurd notion that if the Qaddafi regime stops targeting “civilians”, then we are fine with its continued incumbency. Yes, the President has said many times lately that Qaddafi has to go, but he never said that U.S. military forces were to be the proximate agent of that outcome. This is a lawyer’s cleverness bucking up against reality, however, and in this instance at least, the lawyer is bound to convince no one. (It was a lawyer’s way of thinking, too, to have privileged the attainment of multilateral cover above the need to know what the hell one was actually doing.) Clearly, the only way to reliably protect these “civilians” is to change the regime. Having started this foolish war, that is the only way it can end without producing sheer calamity—not that any end state that one can reasonably foresee is risk-free at this point.

There is another reason why regime change has to displace an impossible humanitarianism as the policy’s goal: this is French policy, and the French seem bound to take the lead in this effort, if we can find a way to pass off the command to them, or to them in league with the British. French policy bears its own mysteries, to be sure, but a lack of clarity about the mission is not among them. The French early on recognized the rebels as the provisional government of Libya and have stated unequivocally that the end of the Qaddafi regime is the purpose of the intervention. It eludes me, I confess, why the French have been so adamant about Libya, and why now. It also eludes me why, after having rejoined NATO’s military structure in 2009, Paris now refuses to allow the mission to become a NATO operation. This is an insistence that makes life particularly hard for the very worried Italians who, above and beyond all Europeans are in Qaddafi’s crosshairs for, as he sees it, the sin of betrayal. (There are lots of Libyan émigrés on Italy, each of them now likely to be seen by some Italians as potential terrorists.) But at least President Sarkozy can string together two thoughts and conclude that nothing short of regime change can justify releasing all the demons that this war has already set free.

Second, the means don’t match the only plausible, logical definition of the mission.  A no-fly zone cannot, and never could, end this fight among the Libyans. This is not a set-battle conventional war; it’s a messy insurgency/counterinsurgency brawl without fixed fronts or large concentrations of forces. Air forces can do only so much, even with special-forces spotters on the ground helping them. And they can do less in the face of the fiction that their mission is to protect “civilians.” Indeed, if we take the UN resolution and the President at their word, what exactly do senior U.S. commanders tell their pilots? What possible ROEs make sense in a situation like this, where we are intelligence blind as well as way too high in the sky to distinguish friend from foe and avoid friendly-fire catastrophe?

I recently spent five and a half days (February 22-March 1) aboard the USS Boxer, a helicopter landing deck ship with a crew of about 900 “blue” sailors and 1,800 “green” Marines. I had many conversations with officers and some enlisted men and women as we sailed from San Diego to Pearl Harbor on the first leg of their 7-month deployment, and some of those conversations were with Marine pilots of the Boxer’s 20 helicopters (Cobras and Hueys) and 6 Harrier jets. I can just imagine their eyes turning into saucers on getting orders to use their craft to protect “civilians” fighting in close-combat with Libyan army forces. I can imagine them wishing to reply, in effect, “You want me to do what, with a Harrier jet?!”, but holding their very patriotic tongues. Those must be something like the orders Marine pilots have already received on the Boxer’s sister ship, the USS Kearsarge, which is right now in the Med off the Libyan coast. These pilots will do their level best to comply with whatever ROE’s they’re given, but I feel deeply sorry for them as they confront orders to do the virtually impossible. I also feel badly for General Carter Ham, who is trying to put the best face he can on what he knows to be an incoherent set of orders. I wonder how Secretary Gates is feeling about all this? In a way it doesn’t matter now; it seems to me that he has no choice but to resign.

Clearly, only boots on the ground of one sort or another can oust Qaddafi and his bloodthirsty son, which is, again, the only way to bring the current phase of fighting under control. Whose boots will they be?

The President prefers that the “Libyan people” do it by themselves. That is of course preferable, but it is not and never was very likely. The rebels say, in effect, “Sure, we’ll do it; we just need your air forces to pummel the regime into clouds of pink meat for us first.” That is tantamount to not exactly doing it all by themselves, and it certainly asks the pilots to do vastly more than protect civilians.

Suppose, then, that the French take their mission definition seriously and determine to go in on the ground to finish Qaddafi and son. Can French forces actually do this? Assuming they can get to the fight in sufficient numbers and hook up with the opposition (French and British special forces have been quietly on the ground in Libya now for weeks), can they prevail? This is not clear. What if the British help a lot? Can the two allies together do it, not as a NATO operation (unless the French relent on that point) but as something else, and a something else that will have neither UN nor Arab League imprimatur? (The relevant UN resolution explicitly rules out foreign troops on Libyan soil, and the Arab League will never endorse the return of “colonialist” forces to the region.)  Under these political circumstances, and with an abstinent German government snarking unhelpfully over their shoulders, it is by no means clear that a major Franco-British effort will be forthcoming, or that if it is it will succeed. Echoes of Suez?

So what happens if the French and British try but do not succeed in a reasonably expeditious way? What happens is about as obvious as it gets: not Suez happens.  The Americans come and save the day, as they demurred from doing in October 1956.  The French and British know in their heart of hearts that we cannot let them fail miserably at this, or that’s what they suppose. I suppose they’re right.

What this means is that the President may before very long be forced to make the most excruciating decision of his life: to send American soldiers into harm’s way to save the Western alliance—even from an operation that is not explicitly a NATO mission!—in a contingency that has no strategic rationale to begin with; or not, leaving the alliance in ruins and Qaddafi bursting with plans to exact revenge.

I think the President simply cannot allow that latter outcome. So this is no ordinary, run-of-the-mill mission creep we’re about to encounter if our allies cannot turn the trick. That’s why I propose naming the next stage of the coalition mission, should it assume a U.S.-led shape and dimension, Operation Rapid Serpent.

Third, we’ve started a war we won’t know how to end. We have a great deal riding on the success of the Franco-British operation, assuming one actually takes shape in a hurry. If it doesn’t work, the U.S. government is very likely going to be dragged, even with the President privately kicking and screaming all the way, to a mission definition (again, the only logical one available) that will presage an open-ended commitment. As I have said, a Qaddafi left armed and dangerous when the dust settles is an unacceptable outcome. Civilian planes will likely start failing out the sky, as did the one over Lockerbie; assassination attempts will multiply, like the attempted Libyan-backed murder of the Saudi king in 2003; al-Qaeda and affiliates might be aided and abetted to do Lord-knows-what to the Italians, the French, the British and, of course, to us. With nothing to lose, and way beyond the threshold of worrying about sanctions and such, Qaddafi could well become more dangerous than ever. If I were Silvio Berlusconi, in particular, I’d pick my future whorehouses with extreme care.

Ah, but suppose some boots on the ground do get Qaddafi and son; that, unfortunately, will not necessarily spell the end of the conflict. Of course, if democracy breaks out in a post-Qaddafi Libya, everything will be sunshine and roses—except that is about as likely to happen as a hookah-smoking caterpillar offering you a tuna on rye, with a pickle. Or about as likely as such a clean and clear endpoint to the battle in Iraq ever was. Whenever there is a conflict in a far-off land between some protesting horde and some morally unaesthetic incumbent government, the Manichean American mind rushes ineluctably to the conclusion that the throng in the street has to be a democracy movement. It’s the Children of the Sons of Light against the Children of the Sons of Darkness over, and over, and over again, except of course that it’s almost never quite that simple or clear-cut. This amounts to a pre-adolescent understanding of any region, and the Arab world isn’t just any region.

As noted, there is a regional and tribal element to the fight in Libya. It is unlikely that the Benghazi-based rebels could by themselves establish stable control over the whole country. It is almost as unlikely that the Tripolitanian tribes could re-establish firm control over Cyrenaica. Qaddafi managed the feat through a combination of patronage, terror and cooptation. That will be a very hard act to follow in the wake of so much bloodletting. We are therefore looking into the maw of a Libya that may well be divided, in the throes of some kind of protracted, at least low-level civil war, and that could very easily produce an insurgency spilling over the Egyptian and Tunisian borders—complete with refugees, the usual dysfunctional NGO triage operations and all the rest. And in due course, if the fractious mess lasts long enough, there is a reasonable prospect that al-Qaeda will find a way to establish a foothold amid the mayhem.

Who will want to send in peacekeepers to baby-sit a Libya that looks like that?  Who’ll want to go to the UN to get the job authorized? The African Union?

Now, given that this sort of problem is foreseeable, and that it was also foreseeable before the cruise missiles started flying on Saturday, it stands to reason that a responsible, serious government will have thought about all this in advance, and come up with some plan for the post-combat “Phase IV” of the Libyan War, right?  Not on your life; the President and his war council almost certainly have not even begun to think about this sort of thing, because they’re still in denial that it could happen. This is, after all, just a limited, humanitarian mission as far as they’re concerned. They don’t realize it yet, but these guys are on a path to make even Donny Rumsfeld and Tommy Franks look good—and you thought that was impossible.

*  *  *

These three observations do not, of course, exhaust the madness of what the Administration has done. This Libya caper will constitute a huge, compound distraction. Not only will it distract us from longer-term challenges, mainly in Asia, that will determine the success or failure of America’s grand strategy of forward presence on the flanks of Eurasia, it will also distract us from even more portentous Middle Eastern dangers. Just yesterday the head of the Yemeni army withdrew his support for President Ali Abdullah Saleh. This portends a major, multifaceted tribe-and-clan based civil war with a potential to put core U.S. security interests at risk—for an anarchic Yemen, a mountainous country with four times the population of Libya, can host a sanctuary for al-Qaeda that will make their Taliban-era digs pale by comparison. And in Yemen, al-Qaeda already has a kind of defense-in-depth across the Bab al-Mandeb in what’s left of Somalia.

Even Bahrain is more important inherently than Libya; but that’s another story.

There is more, too—albeit of a more abstract nature. Before we started this crazy war, what was going on in the region was all about the Arabs—the good Arabs, the bad Arabs, the other Arabs, all the Arabs, some of the Arabs, whatever. In both their eyes and ours, it was about them. Now it is, or will soon be, about us. Every quark’s worth of negative energy in the region will in due course be drawn as if by a magnet to us, as the Arabs resume their favorite sport of exporting responsibility for their own circumstances onto others. We will subject the region, yet again, to the equivalent of the U.S. Heisenberg Effect, especially if we’re forced to bail out our allies. We’ve seen this film before. It’s a tragedy.

And finally, it bears note that the use of Western military power in Libya is bound to color the political processes going on in Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain and elsewhere. How will it color them? We have no clue, which is why launching a war without thinking about the broader consequences is, well—how to put it?—not a good idea. Some commentators, like one in today’s New York Times, for example, who have favored a forward-learning policy from the beginning of the Libya crisis, are now starting to worry about the possible downside implications. It used to be that serious people thought through the implications of policy proposals before they advocated them, and before the bombs and missiles started raining down. Better late than never? Maybe. Embarrassing in any case? Um…..

It wasn’t mad to advocate the establishment of a no-fly zone over Libya two or three weeks ago. Some reasoned that the psychology of the thing might have been enough to push Qaddafi out when the battle was flowing against him. Some believed, against all evidence, that a no-fly zone could be militarily effective. Some have reasoned that Qaddafi would become more dangerous if he survived his domestic challenge even in the absence of a Western intervention, so we could not let him survive if the rebels could not finish him off. That was not evidence of madness either, but it was speculative enough, in my view, to counsel waiting a good long while before shooting. It also failed to reckon seriously the downside of the undertaking and to identify other policy options short of war.

What is crazy, however, is the consequences-be-damned argument for war on humanitarian grounds that the President has apparently embraced, and the utter vacuum of strategic thinking that seems to be its handmaiden. It would have been far better to leave this hornet’s nest alone, but now that we have poked it with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of ordnance, the worst possible posture to adopt is that of a Boy Scout helping an old lady across the street when only that of a warrior (hopefully French and/or British) will do.

I wish the President had never opened his big eloquent mouth about Libya, and I wish we had not started this war; but wishing won’t make it go away. I have no intention of waxing banal and invoking Vietnam, because Libya has nothing to do with Vietnam; there are no quagmires in a place that, from a military point of view, is an island in the sense that every target worth hitting can be hit from the sea. But I do suspect that this can only end badly, and that what is left to policy at this point is to figure out the least bad of all possible outcomes and struggle toward it. It’s times like these that make me thank Heaven that I am no longer working for the U.S. Government. My best wishes to those who are; they now need all the luck they can get.

whork25

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #218 on: March 24, 2011, 04:17:34 AM »
Yawn.  Genocide?  More people have been murdered in the us in the last year. 

Okay sure then we just leave the Brits with their dick in their hand.
You wanna sell them out. My god i wouldnt have you by my side if things got heated

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #219 on: March 24, 2011, 04:20:48 AM »
Okay sure then we just leave the Brits with their dick in their hand.
You wanna sell them out. My god i wouldnt have you by my side if things got heated

 ::)  ::)

This is not about Gadafi attacking or theatening the bris, USA or French you fool. 


whork25

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #220 on: March 24, 2011, 04:21:56 AM »
I know but the British are going in so we must support them thats how alliances work

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #221 on: March 24, 2011, 04:24:42 AM »
Obama squanders America’s legacy
By Charles Hurt
-
The Washington Times
10:20 p.m., Tuesday, March 22, 2011


Welcome to the post-America world. If the last one was the American Century, this century is the one in which an internationalist president abdicates our crown as leader of the free world and shuffles America randomly into the deck of nations.

No better, no worse. No greater, no lesser.

Just a country stuck somewhere between Uganda and Uzbekistan. We come in right before Uruguay!

How painfully and awkwardly Mr. Obama steps forward and timidly flexes the mighty sword that was bequeathed to him. Even his most uninspired and uninspiring predecessors at least understood they had inherited an American legacy that was the gleaming beacon of freedom and humanity around the globe.

America was the land of true Hope — not some cynical empty promise deployed just to win a small political victory.

Even Mr. Obama's most humble predecessors did not apologize for the great country they led. They did not bow before dictators and beg forgiveness for America's excesses, which are but a small price to pay for actual and untidy freedom.

And they certainly were not embarrassed by the unequaled strength of our military power.

This cat got so full of the heebie-jeebies, he couldn't split town fast enough. No little military inconvenience would keep him from high-tailing it to Rio.

In his strange and remote announcement over the weekend of America's war footing, Mr. Obama repeatedly said that our Navy would pummel Libya from the sea, but at no point would troops be deployed on the ground.

What kind of commander in chief unleashes America's firepower, then immediately blunts it by informing the enemy that we are not really all that committed to this campaign. So, he tells them: Just hang on and you might survive?

That flimsy doctrine didn't work for Jimmy Carter and it won't work now for Mr. Obama.

Even more alarming is that Mr. Obama was clearly trying to send voters here in America a political message that he will somehow not put troops into harm's way. He's not embarking, he tells us, on a new war venture with unacceptable body counts.

The appalling disrespect Mr. Obama has for the military is such that he doesn't even seem to have the slightest inkling the harm's way he sends our Navy into, even on a mission like this.

And what now that — just three days in — we indeed do have troops on the ground, rescuing downed fighter pilots?

The only thing worse than a fuzzy mission is a fuzzy mission carried out in service of a fuzzy strategy.

Ask the new leaders of the free world — you know, the French and so on — what the objective here is and how we plan to get there, and you wind up with something more like an impressionist painting than a military strategy.

Col. Moammar Gadhafi is NOT a target, they say — even though he is the whole reason we have gotten involved.

So, yes, he IS the target.

And then there is Barack Obama, the humble internationalist, who prefers to just say he wishes Col. Gadhafi would step down. Isn't it strange that a guy so famous for his seamless arrogance is capable of such meekness when it comes to the riches and treasures that have been built over centuries by better men before him and jealously guarded by generations?

Perhaps, then, it is not humility we see in Mr. Obama. Maybe it is such epic arrogance that he actually considers himself so far above all those who came before him and the temples to freedom they built.

• Charles Hurt's column appears Wednesdays. He may be reached at charleshurt@live.com

whork25

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #222 on: March 24, 2011, 04:28:04 AM »
"Even his most uninspired and uninspiring predecessors at least understood they had inherited an American legacy that was the gleaming beacon of freedom and humanity around the globe".

I think im gonna puke.

Remember this quote:

patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel


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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #223 on: March 24, 2011, 05:45:17 AM »
333386 and the rest of them it's not about the war they could care less,it's about obama, plan and simple. Any thing to make him appear to look bad they will post, shit 333386 will post anything from any source alot of it with half truths or no truth at all, he don't check any of the facts because he doesn't care,as long as it appears to make obama look bad

whork25

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Re: Obama's illegal war
« Reply #224 on: March 24, 2011, 06:07:20 AM »
I think he has a man-crush