Author Topic: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!  (Read 3060 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2011, 04:33:52 PM »
I already attested to using that paragraph from another site. Was that really all I posted or are you blind?

 

No, that's not all you posted, and I addressed your main point. 

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2011, 04:42:57 PM »
So let me see if I understand this,

You don't trust the government but you dont have an issue with the Patriot Act because the courts will protect us?

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2011, 04:51:21 PM »
The blind and rabid devotion that leaves most Ron Paul fanboys frothing at the mouth anytime someone so much as asks a question about a viewpoint of his is really going to end up turning people off to him. No different than all the assholes who thought Obama was going to be paying for their gas.

wtf?

Im talking about my viewpoint, not anyone else's.

Dos Equis

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2011, 04:59:37 PM »
So let me see if I understand this,

You don't trust the government but you dont have an issue with the Patriot Act because the courts will protect us?

Close, but not exactly.  I don't trust the government.  The judicial branch does a decent job of checking the executive and legislative branches.  I don't always agree with them, but they do a good job.   

I don't have an issue with the Patriot Act because I have not yet heard a reasonable complaint about its abuse, or its potential for abuse.  I said earlier that every law has the potential for abuse.   

You are concerned that Ron Paul supporters, or Americans engaged in peaceful political protests, can be arrested under the Patriot Act?  Why do you think that hasn't happened in the ten years this law has been in effect? 

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2011, 05:13:53 PM »
Here is a question, we have heard the left scream since 2001 that we didn't "connect the dots" and that is why the Sept 11 attacks succeeded. What exactly did the patriot act do to remedy this? Then we heard the left scream about how terrible the Patriot Act was, well until Obama got elected, now its A'OK why?  Because it's a bunch of political bullshit, as long as your guy is in charge well it ain't so bad, but when the other guy's in charge the bubonic plague pails in comparison. I will not trust a government that is only interested in political leverage when it comes to the constitution or the freedom of Americans.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2011, 05:37:09 PM »
 
You are concerned that Ron Paul supporters, or Americans engaged in peaceful political protests, can be arrested under the Patriot Act?  Why do you think that hasn't happened in the ten years this law has been in effect?  


I'm concerned about everyone rights.





Dos Equis

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2011, 05:51:24 PM »

Im concerned about everyone's rights .


So am I.

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2011, 05:53:59 PM »
If it has happened would we even know? From what I gather you can be held indefinitely and without representation or have any of the other rights criminals usually have when arrested.

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2011, 06:10:15 PM »
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-airline-felonies20-2009jan20,0,5468299.story

In-flight confrontations can lead to terrorism charges


At least 200 passengers have been convicted of felonies under the Patriot Act, often for behavior involving raised voices and profanity. Some experts say airlines are misusing the law.


OKLAHOMA CITY AND LOS ANGELES— Tamera Jo Freeman was on a Frontier Airlines flight to Denver in 2007 when her two children began to quarrel over the window shade and then spilled a Bloody Mary into her lap. She spanked each of them on the thigh with three swats. It was a small incident, but one that in the heightened anxiety after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks would eventually have enormous ramifications for Freeman and her children.

A flight attendant confronted Freeman, who responded by hurling a few profanities and throwing what remained of a can of tomato juice on the floor.

The incident aboard the Frontier flight ultimately led to Freeman's arrest and conviction for a federal felony defined as an act of terrorism under the Patriot Act, the controversial federal law enacted after the 2001 attacks in New York and Washington.


Freeman is one of at least 200 people on flights who have been convicted under the amended law. In most of the cases, there was no evidence that the passengers had attempted to hijack the airplane or physically attack any of the flight crew. Many have simply involved raised voices, foul language and drunken behavior.

Some security experts say the use of the law by airlines and their employees has run amok, criminalizing incidents that did not start out as a threat to public safety, much less an act of terrorism.

In one case, a couple was arrested after an argument with a flight attendant, who claimed the couple was engaged in "overt sexual activity" -- an FBI affidavit said the two were "embracing, kissing and acting in a manner that made other passengers uncomfortable."


Jail as a sentence may not always be the case but lsoing your job could suck just as bad.

A flight attendant twice asked them to stop, according to the affidavit, and Persing responded, "Get out of my face," and later, "You and I are going to have a serious confrontation when we get off this plane."

But he denied making a threat. He said he did not feel well because of a chemotherapy drug and had put his head in Sewell's lap. "We were kind of confused why he was waking us up, why he wouldn't let me sleep," he said in a recent interview.

Charges were dropped against Sewell, but Persing, who had never been arrested before, was sentenced to 12 months' probation.

He almost lost his job as a Port of Los Angeles mechanic, which requires a security clearance from the Department of Homeland Security. The department initially yanked the clearance but reinstated it after a review of the facts.

Dos Equis

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2011, 09:06:52 PM »
If it has happened would we even know? From what I gather you can be held indefinitely and without representation or have any of the other rights criminals usually have when arrested.


Where did you gather that?  News to me. 

Unlawful enemy combatants have been held indefinitely without charges under the Military Commissions Act.  Has nothing to do with the Patriot Act. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2011, 09:11:43 PM »
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-airline-felonies20-2009jan20,0,5468299.story

In-flight confrontations can lead to terrorism charges


At least 200 passengers have been convicted of felonies under the Patriot Act, often for behavior involving raised voices and profanity. Some experts say airlines are misusing the law.


OKLAHOMA CITY AND LOS ANGELES— Tamera Jo Freeman was on a Frontier Airlines flight to Denver in 2007 when her two children began to quarrel over the window shade and then spilled a Bloody Mary into her lap. She spanked each of them on the thigh with three swats. It was a small incident, but one that in the heightened anxiety after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks would eventually have enormous ramifications for Freeman and her children.

A flight attendant confronted Freeman, who responded by hurling a few profanities and throwing what remained of a can of tomato juice on the floor.

The incident aboard the Frontier flight ultimately led to Freeman's arrest and conviction for a federal felony defined as an act of terrorism under the Patriot Act, the controversial federal law enacted after the 2001 attacks in New York and Washington.


Freeman is one of at least 200 people on flights who have been convicted under the amended law. In most of the cases, there was no evidence that the passengers had attempted to hijack the airplane or physically attack any of the flight crew. Many have simply involved raised voices, foul language and drunken behavior.

Some security experts say the use of the law by airlines and their employees has run amok, criminalizing incidents that did not start out as a threat to public safety, much less an act of terrorism.

In one case, a couple was arrested after an argument with a flight attendant, who claimed the couple was engaged in "overt sexual activity" -- an FBI affidavit said the two were "embracing, kissing and acting in a manner that made other passengers uncomfortable."


Jail as a sentence may not always be the case but lsoing your job could suck just as bad.

A flight attendant twice asked them to stop, according to the affidavit, and Persing responded, "Get out of my face," and later, "You and I are going to have a serious confrontation when we get off this plane."

But he denied making a threat. He said he did not feel well because of a chemotherapy drug and had put his head in Sewell's lap. "We were kind of confused why he was waking us up, why he wouldn't let me sleep," he said in a recent interview.

Charges were dropped against Sewell, but Persing, who had never been arrested before, was sentenced to 12 months' probation.

He almost lost his job as a Port of Los Angeles mechanic, which requires a security clearance from the Department of Homeland Security. The department initially yanked the clearance but reinstated it after a review of the facts.


Dummies.  I have zero sympathy for those folks.  After 9/11, you get on the plane, shut the heck up, enjoy the flight, and gag on disgusting airplane food.  Not that hard to do.  I would treat any disturbance as a very serious matter while in flight.  There is very little margin for error.   

I fly a lot and I have been very careful to keep my nose clean.  No goofball remarks when going through security (which is really a challenge).  I even kept my cool when they took my protein powder and put it through chemical tests.  I actually thought it was pretty funny.   :)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2011, 09:14:16 PM »
We don't need the patriot act for that. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2011, 09:17:19 PM »
We don't need the patriot act for that. 

I don't think that's why it was enacted anyway.  Doesn't sound like a big deal to me.  Any idiot who creates any kind of disturbance in flight should be arrested, with or without the Patriot Act. 

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2011, 09:42:50 PM »
I think its difficult to make that statement against the second guy. I don't condone the woman's behavior but the charge is over the top.

Dos Equis

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2011, 09:50:58 PM »
I think its difficult to make that statement against the second guy. I don't condone the woman's behavior but the charge is over the top.

Depends.  If all he did was put his head on his woman's lap because he was not feeling well, then I agree.  But if he said:  "Get out of my face," and later, "You and I are going to have a serious confrontation when we get off this plane," then he got what he deserved. 

We cannot afford to tolerate much of anything in flight anymore.  Keep in mind we had a guy trying to ignite his shoes, one try to blow up his underwear, and recently a guy charged the cockpit shouting Allahu Akbar. 

And I tell you what, if I see someone creating a disturbance on my flight I'm taking that fool down myself.  We'll probably both get arrested.  lol . . . .

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2011, 03:17:49 AM »
Dummies.  I have zero sympathy for those folks.  After 9/11, you get on the plane, shut the heck up, enjoy the flight, and gag on disgusting airplane food.  Not that hard to do.  I would treat any disturbance as a very serious matter while in flight.  There is very little margin for error.   

I fly a lot and I have been very careful to keep my nose clean.  No goofball remarks when going through security (which is really a challenge).  I even kept my cool when they took my protein powder and put it through chemical tests.  I actually thought it was pretty funny.   :)

Why don't you travel on a ship? ???
I hate the State.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2011, 09:59:59 AM »
 :D



Dos Equis

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2011, 11:15:37 AM »
Why don't you travel on a ship? ???

For the same reason I don't travel by kayak. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2011, 08:49:28 PM »
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'It's Almost As If There Are Two PATRIOT Acts'
Reason ^ | May 31, 2011 | Jacob Sullum
Posted on June 1, 2011 11:25:43 PM EDT by 2ndDivisionVet

Last week Mike Riggs noted Ron Wyden's warnings about the Obama administration's "secret interpretation" of the PATRIOT Act, which he said undermines democracy, the rule of law, and ultimately the public's support for anti-terrorism efforts. Here is some of what Wyden, an Oregon Democrat who serves on the Senate Intelligence Committee, had to say on the subject in a floor speech on Thursday:

When the American people find out how their government has secretly interpreted the Patriot Act, they will be stunned and they will be angry. And they will be asking senators, "Did you know what this law actually permits?" "Why didn't you know before you voted on it?" The fact is that anyone can read the plain text of the PATRIOT Act, and yet many members of Congress have no idea how the law is being secretly interpreted by the executive branch, because that interpretation is classified.

It's almost as if there are two Patriot Acts, and many members of Congress haven't even read the one that matters. Our constituents, of course, are totally in the dark. Members of the public have no access to the executive branch's secret legal interpretations, so they have no idea what their government thinks this law means....

While Americans recognize that government agencies will sometimes rely on secret sources and methods to collect intelligence information, Americans also expect that these agencies will operate at all times within the boundaries of publicly understood law.

I have served on the Senate Intelligence Committee for ten years, and I don't take a backseat to anybody when it comes to the importance of protecting genuinely sensitive sources and collection methods. But the law itself should never be secret—voters have a need and a right to know what the law says, and what their government thinks the text of the law means, so that they can decide whether the law is appropriately written and ratify or reject decisions that their elected officials make on their behalf....

Government officials must not be allowed to fall into the trap of secretly reinterpreting the law in a way that creates a gap between what the public thinks the law says and what the government secretly claims that it says....When the public eventually finds out that government agencies have been rewriting surveillance laws in secret, the result is invariably a backlash and an erosion of public confidence in these government agencies.

Wyden likened the Obama administration's classified understanding of the PATRIOT Act to Harry Truman's telegram-intercepting Project Shamrock, the CIA's domestic spying, the Reagan administration's Iran-contra scandal, and the Bush administration's secret approval of warrantless wiretaps. But what exactly does this twisting of the PATRIOT Act entail? Wyden can't say, because it's classified. (Duh!) But Cato Institute privacy specialist (and Reason contributing editor) Julian Sanchez argues, based on clues going back to comments that two other senators, Richard Durbin (D-Ill.) and Russell Feingold (D-Wis.), made more than a year ago, that the shocking secret probably has something to do with mass collection and analysis of cell phone geolocation data under Section 215 of the law.

Look for my column tomorrow about the rush to renew the PATRIOT Act.

TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; Click to Add Topic







This is fucked up.   Even widen is pissed off. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2011, 06:59:41 AM »
BB - please tell me you dont support his crap?   This is why I am against the Patriot Act.  Its a gateway drug for the jack boots.     


http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2011/06/01/mta-officers-detain-man-for-taking-pictures





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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2011, 07:13:17 AM »
Ron Paul warns of 'dictatorship in Washington DC'
By Josiah Ryan - 06/01/11 04:57 PM ET

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/164271-ron-paul-warns-of-dictatorship-in-washington-dc



GOP Presidential candidate Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) on Tuesday warned of too much "dictatorship in Washington D.C." while on a campaign stop in Mason City, Iowa.

"We're not on the verge of having a king, but we are on the verge of having way too much dictatorship in Washington, D.C.," Paul said, comparing the U.S.'s current situation to a Biblical tale in which the ancient Israelites demanded, against their own good, that a king rule their land instead of God.

"Our rights come from our creator, not our government," added Paul according to the The Waterloo-Cedar Falls Courier.

Paul, who announced last month that he will run for president for the third time, faces an uphill battle as many Americans consider his positions to be on the far fringe of the right-wing.

Paul, however, noted that he had recently observed a seismic shift in American politics.

"The mainstream is changing," said Paul. "The mainstream wants balanced budgets, sound government and personal liberties --- that is mainstream.”

"The shift is in our direction --- obeying the Constitution for a change," he said.


________________________ ________________________ ___

Amen - obots look to their God King - not the constitution for anything.   

Soul Crusher

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2011, 10:25:43 AM »
Artificial Panic Behind the Rush to Extend the Patriot Act
www.Townhall.com ^ | June 1, 2011 | Jacob Sullum






Just before midnight last Thursday, a White House autopen signed legislation extending controversial provisions of the Patriot Act that were scheduled to expire the next day. President Obama authorized the use of a machine to produce a facsimile of his signature because he was traveling in Europe. But it was oddly appropriate, given the facsimile of congressional debate that preceded the bill's passage.

The extension was rushed through Congress based on a false sense of urgency, much like the original Patriot Act, which legislators did not even have time to read.

Back then, 45 days after 9/11, the urgency was based on a fear of follow-up attacks. Last week, the urgency supposedly was due to the long-anticipated expiration of three provisions: Section 215, which authorizes the government to demand "any tangible thing" it deems relevant to a terrorism investigation; Section 206, which lets the government obtain secret warrants for "roving wiretaps" without naming its target or specifying his location; and Section 6001 of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act, which allows secretly authorized domestic surveillance of "lone wolf" terrorism suspects who are not connected to a foreign organization or government.

While members of Congress have had plenty of time to read the Patriot Act since 2001, many of them, perhaps most, still did not know what they were approving. Ron Wyden of Oregon and Mark Udall of Colorado, Democrats who serve on the Senate Intelligence Committee, repeatedly warned that the government conducts surveillance based on a "secret interpretation" of the Patriot Act, apparently involving Section 215, that cannot be discussed because it is classified.

Yet congressional leaders insisted the expiring powers -- including the "lone wolf" provision, which has never been used -- were absolutely essential to national security. Letting them lapse, even for a single day, claimed Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., would invite "dire consequences for our national security ... giving terrorists the opportunity to plot attacks against our country undetected."

Never mind that Congress could have temporarily extended these provisions to provide more time for debate and consideration of amendments. The point of the wait-and-hurry-up strategy used by the Patriot Act's supporters is to assume away the very issue to be debated: whether the benefits of the privacy-invading powers granted by the law are worth the damage they do to civil liberties.

The law's supporters pay lip service to such concerns, professing admiration for Patriot Act critics such as Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky. Expressing regret that the Senate did not have time for the "full and complete debate on the Patriot Act" he had promised, Reid called Paul "a very pleasant man with strong feelings," saying, "I have only the highest regard for him."

But when Paul's refusal to join the artificial panic delayed the vote Reid wanted, the majority leader quickly changed his tune. Thanks to Paul's "political grandstanding," Reid warned, the government might lose "some of the most critical tools it needs to counter terrorists." Referring to Paul's proposed amendment restricting the use of Section 215 to obtain firearm records, Reid averred that "he is fighting for an amendment to protect the right of terrorists ... to cover up their gun purchases."

As Paul noted in response, this charge was much like saying that someone who thinks police should obtain a warrant before searching the home of a murder suspect must be in favor of murder. Paul forcefully rejected the bipartisan post-9/11 consensus that "we wouldn't be able to capture these terrorists if we didn't give up some of our liberties."

Among other things, Paul questions the "suspicious activity reports" that financial institutions must file for cash transfers of more than $5,000 -- a requirement that was expanded by the Patriot Act. Noting that supporters of this mandate, which generates 1 million or so reports a year, say "the courts have decided our bank records aren't private," Paul responded: "The hell they aren't. They should be private."

If this is "political grandstanding," we need more of it.


Dos Equis

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2011, 12:12:09 PM »
BB - please tell me you dont support his crap?   This is why I am against the Patriot Act.  Its a gateway drug for the jack boots.     


http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2011/06/01/mta-officers-detain-man-for-taking-pictures



If all the guy was doing was taking pictures, they should have left him alone. 

What does this have to do with the Patriot Act? 

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2011, 03:43:09 PM »
If all the guy was doing was taking pictures, they should have left him alone. 

What does this have to do with the Patriot Act? 



Officers site the Patriot all the time on bullshit situations like this even if the action they are inspecting doesnt fall under it. Just more abuse of power from these officers.

Dos Equis

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Re: Ron Paul-Stop Obama's Unconstitutional Power Grab!
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2011, 03:45:26 PM »


Officers site the Patriot all the time on bullshit situations like this even if the action they are inspecting doesnt fall under it. Just more abuse of power from these officers.

Did they arrest this guy for violating the Patriot Act?  The story doesn't mention it.