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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2011, 02:28:23 PM »

loco are pantheism and deism the same as christianity?

the sermon on the mount and the ten commandments are not christianity either, i see your logical conclusion that he must be a christian but if he refutes jesus but likes the commandments he is not a christian, the logical extension is not implied from that sentence.
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2011, 02:35:28 PM »

The title of this thread, and your argument says "Christian Nation"

Your "proof" to the contrary says

"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

The Government alone is not the Nation.  Got anything else other than article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli?



nation includes people and the government, the latter of which decides for the majority opinion. The treaty clearly states my assertion, also im in the negative position i dont have to prove anything, the burden on the person making a claim. I asked why do people think this is a christian nation, or that it was founded on christian belief. You and many christians say it is. If someone says it was founded on unicorns i dont have to look for references to the contrary i can just ask for proof. The fact is, rarely will you find articles and discussions ruling out negatives, for example

the American nation is in no way a nation founded on christianity, unicorns, cupacabra, magic, steven speilberg etc.. the list is infinite.

show me something that says this is a nation founded on christian beliefs.
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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2011, 02:37:14 PM »

loco you stated it was founded on judeo-christian principles, prove your point. What principles exactly?

original sin?
the ten commandments?
hell?
working on the sabbath?
the devil is real?

what principles were outlined specfically?
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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2011, 02:52:47 PM »

great post using logic

The Declaration of Independence was not a founding document, but a statement of intent of sort that led to the founding, and while it was deistic, and in fact the idea of where our rights come from continued to be deistic, when it came to the actual founding of the country, the founders debated long and hard and came to the conclusion that the only way in which true freedom of belief could be protected was to establish a wholly secular and neutral government in order to to protect equally the rights of all Americans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence
They saw that any sort of official sanction given to not only any particular belief, but to even belief over lack of belief, would necessarily diminish the equal standing of the other positions.
Even Jefferson himself, who was the principle author of the Declaration Poptorts keeps referring to, famously stated;
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
and
Though he did so as Governor of Virginia, during his Presidency Jefferson refused to issue proclamations calling for days of prayer and thanksgiving.
They understood that what they may have done personally and on a local level was different than what they did when concerning the official structure of the nation as a whole and the government and documents that we designed to serve that whole.
This has been persistently attacked and eroded over the years by Christians trying to reshape us after the fact into a Christian nation by not only denying and lying about this foundation, but in intentionally conflating vague deism with specific Christian doctrine and faith etc, and between private matters of conscience, and official government establishment.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/david-barton-glenn-beck_b_521485.html
http://www.liarsforjesus.com/
etc.
Hence the slew of mid 1950's McCarthy era Red Scare Christian Establishment moves, meant to intentionally promote and establish the US as a Christian nation contrary to the perceived atheist threat of Communism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare#Second_Red_Scare_.281947.E2.80.9357.29
1952: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Prayer
1954: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Addition_of_the_words_.22under_God.22
1956: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust (as the official National Motto)
1957: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust (mandated on all currency, coinage and paper)
And so on...
And unfortunately many now have the false impression that these things were always a part of our country, in spite of actually violating both the Constitution and the clear principles set forth by the founders themselves, which stood for many years before these unConstitutional and unAmerican acts.
It has always been telling to me that the Christians felt the need to replace "E Pluribus Unum", meaning "Of Many, (come) One"... a celebration of the diversity from which American was formed and from which it drew its strength... with the divisive phrase "In God We Trust" that explicitly violated the principles this nation was founded on, in order to promote falsely the idea that all Americans trusted in or believed in a God, much less the Christian one... an act that has since been a source of conflict due to the very reasons which the founders were wise enough to avoid it for in the first place. It necessarily promotes one type of belief that doesn't actually reflect equally the state of all Americans

in god we trust is divisive and unconstitutional. to say its not is flat out lying. What of those who dont believe in a god? atheists? what about those who believe in reincarnation? many gods? etc.. all left out. Removing reference to god as was intended by the original statment seen above is much more mature and civilized.
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« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2011, 03:19:18 PM »

Thomas Jefferson

1. Built his university centered around a library, not a Church as was the common practice in that day.
2. Eliminated all doctrine references in his own version of the Bible
3. Did not want his nephew reading the bible until age 17 because he feared teaching children about religion (Christianity) was simply brainwashing.
4. Advocated a wall of separation between religion and politics
5. Owned slaves he used for sex (you seriously are going to advocate the christian ethics of a man that would do this?)

see: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K0m0iktSPQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K0m0iktSPQ</a>

Ben Franklin

1. Read his autobiography. It's clear. He gives all of his credit to his own hard work and determination. He never thanks Jesus or gives praise to the Christian God. Like I already said, the only time he mentions religion is when he talks about how bored he got while sitting in church and thought of it as a waste of time.

George Washington.

1. Read Edward Lengel's Inventing George Washington: America's founder in myth and memory.
2. Or read here (page 2):  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/books/inventing-george-washington-by-edward-g-lengel-review.html?scp=1&sq=edward%20lengel&st=cse

Alexander Hamilton

1. When asked at the time why references to God and religion were not included in the Constitution, he answered "we forgot"

In regards to the Constitution: No mention of Christianity or Jesus. Only references to religion within body is the "no religious tests for public officials" which means religion should have no part in who we elect.

In regards to the Declaration: No references to Christianity or Jesus. See Alan Dershowtiz's two books on the Declaration:

http://www.amazon.com/Blasphemy-Religious-Hijacking-Declaration-Independence/dp/0470281685/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_4
http://www.amazon.com/Religious-Right-Wrong-Separation-Church/dp/1591021146/ref=pd_sim_b_3
http://www.amazon.com/America-Declares-Independence-Alan-Dershowitz/dp/0471264822/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_7
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« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2011, 05:55:35 PM »

US Supreme Court Building, Moses and The 10 Commandments





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« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2011, 06:02:02 PM »

U.S. Congress opens each session with a prayer to God, in a Federal building, during work hours.


First Prayer of the Continental Congress, 1774



O Lord our Heavenly Father, high and mighty King of kings, and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments; look down in mercy, we beseech Thee, on these our American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee. To Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support, which Thou alone canst give. Take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle!

Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation. That the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst the people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior.

Amen.

Reverend Jacob Duché
Rector of Christ Church of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
September 7, 1774, 9 o’clock a.m.

http://chaplain.house.gov/archive/continental.html
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« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2011, 06:16:33 PM »

US Supreme Court,  Marsh v. Chambers

"In light of the history, there can be no doubt that the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer has become part of the fabric of our society. To invoke divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, a violation of the Establishment Clause; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0463_0783_ZS.html
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« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2011, 06:32:02 PM »

Loco, I'm sorry but you will not win this argument. This is not a debate where Person A and B try to convince each other with valid arguments. You are simply wrong.

The supreme court has made decisions taking both sides of this argument.

Yes many people in this country are Christians. Probably well over half. This might have even been true since the founding. That does NOT make this a christian nation. Yes there are Christians in this country. That does not make this a christian nation. This is not a christian nation, this is a nation of Christians. I don't understand why you don't either A) Address that point or B) Accept it.

You are avoiding each of the points that Nec and I have brought up and are taking things out of context and trying to expand them. This is wrong. You need to first define what a christian nation is, and then explain how this criteria have been met. If your point is only that Christianity has influenced some people in this country, and some of those people are/were involved in politics, then of course we would agree with that. You are making an incredible leap from that to saying that the entire founding of this country was for the purpose of making this a "Christian nation". Taking things out of context to support your own previous biases and prejudice is NOT a virtuous act.

You are either A) Deliberating being deceitful to try to give your own beliefs more credence or B) Ignorant about the truth yet unwilling to admit you're wrong while trying to find little loopholes to prove you are right. I don't believe neither deceitfulness or ignorance is acceptable. Again I'm sorry, but unless you drastically change the definition for a "christian nation", you are wrong.
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« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2011, 06:49:33 PM »

I don't have time to go into this but you're wrong. Thomas Jefferson was in no way a christian. He founded a university centered around a library, not a church. He didn't recommend his nephew reading the bible until 17 or so because he thought it was brainwashing to teach children religion. He edited the bible and took out the doctrine parts.The only place Ben Franklin mentioned religion in his autobiography was when he talked about how bored he got sitting in church. George Washington did not believe in Christianity the way that we understand the term today, see Edward Lengel's recent book on Washington. The only place religion is mentioned in the Constitution is no religious tests for political office holders, which we in no way respect today.

I could go into this for a long time but this debate has already been won. I'm sorry but this nation was not founded by Christians, it was not meant to be a solely Christian nation. Maybe that gives Christians today some validity in that they believe if so and so believed what they believed, and so and so were smart, then they themselves are smart for believing what they believe. It is not a virtuous act to tell lies in order to make what you believe more credible, I'm sorry.

Like I already said. We are a nation of Christians, NOT a Christian nation.

Interesting post, I knew that about Jefferson and I've read the Franklin Biography.  I know Washington was a big time Freemason, and had an interest in the occult (not sure if occult is the right term)...
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« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2011, 06:50:47 PM »

Thomas Jefferson

Notes on Virginia, 1782:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.




John Adams

Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1812
"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion."

Letter to Zabdiel Adams, 21 June 1776:
Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty.

Letter to Abigail Adams, 3 July 1776:
The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward for evermore.

Diary, 26 July 1796:
The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity.

Address to the Military, 11 October 1798:
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.

What do those quotes have to do with Christianity? Not being critical, just curious? Huh
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« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2011, 06:51:30 PM »

Is Jesus mentioned in any of those quotes?

Huh
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« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2011, 07:56:01 PM »

many of the founding fathers were deists hence the reference to god. It makes sense to say god in deism and allah or jesus for their respective religions.

its not really a debatable fact to be honest, i just dont get why people when faced with overwhelming evidence and FACT continue on. I understand it's self serving purpose but as a rational human with an open mind i sincerely do struggle with how fundies view reality. If jesus came down from heaven tomorrow or evidence for a god came to light i would gladly say im wrong and convert to theism.

you have been told this is true since you were a child, stop and think if it makes sense. Its not rational, but faith isn't by definition.

i still see no evidence for this being a christian nation founded on christian principles, as ambiguous as that is.
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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2011, 11:18:13 PM »

US Supreme Court Building, Moses and The 10 Commandments







"MOSES or Musa is an important figure in both the Qur'an and the New Testament"

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« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2011, 02:05:18 AM »

Loco, I'm sorry but you will not win this argument. This is not a debate where Person A and B try to convince each other with valid arguments. You are simply wrong.

The supreme court has made decisions taking both sides of this argument.

Yes many people in this country are Christians. Probably well over half. This might have even been true since the founding. That does NOT make this a christian nation. Yes there are Christians in this country. That does not make this a christian nation. This is not a christian nation, this is a nation of Christians. I don't understand why you don't either A) Address that point or B) Accept it.

You are avoiding each of the points that Nec and I have brought up and are taking things out of context and trying to expand them. This is wrong. You need to first define what a christian nation is, and then explain how this criteria have been met. If your point is only that Christianity has influenced some people in this country, and some of those people are/were involved in politics, then of course we would agree with that. You are making an incredible leap from that to saying that the entire founding of this country was for the purpose of making this a "Christian nation". Taking things out of context to support your own previous biases and prejudice is NOT a virtuous act.

You are either A) Deliberating being deceitful to try to give your own beliefs more credence or B) Ignorant about the truth yet unwilling to admit you're wrong while trying to find little loopholes to prove you are right. I don't believe neither deceitfulness or ignorance is acceptable. Again I'm sorry, but unless you drastically change the definition for a "christian nation", you are wrong.


What is wrong with you, Mr. Magoo?  You can read, can't you?


Founded on Judeo-Christian principles, but not a Christian nation.  And yes, of all developed nations, the USA has the most people claiming to follow Jesus Christ, attending church 1 to 4 times a week, and donating money, time and blood to help the needy.  No other developed nation comes even close. 
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« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2011, 02:07:31 AM »

"MOSES or Musa is an important figure in both the Qur'an and the New Testament"



Mohammad is the most important man in Islam and the Koran, not Moses.  The founding fathers came from Europe, not from the Middle East.  They had knowledge of the Bible and Christianity, not the Koran and Islam.
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2011, 02:13:59 AM »

What do those quotes have to do with Christianity? Not being critical, just curious? Huh

Did you actually read them?  The text in red shows that when they mention God and religion, they are referring to the God of the Bible and Christianity.


Thomas Jefferson

Notes on Virginia, 1782:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.




John Adams

Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1812
"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion."

Letter to Zabdiel Adams, 21 June 1776:
Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty.

Letter to Abigail Adams, 3 July 1776:
The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward for evermore.

Diary, 26 July 1796:
The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity.

Address to the Military, 11 October 1798:
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.
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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2011, 06:53:16 AM »


What is wrong with you, Mr. Magoo?  You can read, can't you?



Thank you for admitting that the United States is not a Christian Nation. It is merely a nation with a large percentage of the population following Christianity. Also in regards to your post reply to P.I.P, it seems you implicitly admit that George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson were not in any real sense Christians as the term is understood today. You seem to be reduced now to only quoting John Adams mainly. You are wrong when you say "the text in read shows that when THEY mention God and religion, THEY are referring to the God of the Bible and Christianity." There is no "they". There is only John Adams. Thomas Jefferson did not believe in God of the Bible and Christianity. I think it is equally plausible to say that he believed in the god of nature. There is no evidence leading one to believe he trusted Jesus Christ as his lord and savior. I'm sorry but that is not enough to conclude the founding fathers were Christians.

However, you did say that the country was founded on "judeo-christian" principles. Please explain what you mean. I hope you don't mean the subjection of women, the owning of slaves, the rape of slaves, or the free killing of native americans, etc. Doesn't sound very christian to me.
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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2011, 07:05:53 AM »

Thank you for admitting that the United States is not a Christian Nation. It is merely a nation with a large percentage of the population following Christianity. Also in regards to your post reply to P.I.P, it seems you implicitly admit that George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson were not in any real sense Christians as the term is understood today. You seem to be reduced now to only quoting John Adams mainly. You are wrong when you say "the text in read shows that when THEY mention God and religion, THEY are referring to the God of the Bible and Christianity." There is no "they". There is only John Adams. Thomas Jefferson did not believe in God of the Bible and Christianity. I think it is equally plausible to say that he believed in the god of nature. There is no evidence leading one to believe he trusted Jesus Christ as his lord and savior. I'm sorry but that is not enough to conclude the founding fathers were Christians.

However, you did say that the country was founded on "judeo-christian" principles. Please explain what you mean. I hope you don't mean the subjection of women, the owning of slaves, the rape of slaves, or the free killing of native americans, etc. Doesn't sound very christian to me.

I never said that the United States is a Christian Nation.  I actually said that it isn't.  So I do not have to admit to anything.  You cooked that up in your head.  

Stop putting words in my mouth!

I have no idea whether or not the founding fathers trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  Only God knows that.  I am simply posting stuff they said and symbols of Christianity all over the US and US history.

I am not here to "win" an argument.  

"Arguing on the Internet is like the Special Olympics.  Even if you win, you are still retarded."

I don't have to prove anything.  I am simply answering Necrosis question.  I am showing why so many people believe that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.  It is very easy for any person, native or foreign to the US, to come to that conclusion.  

Oh, and Thomas Jefferson loved the Gospels so much that he took the time to write his own version including only his favorite parts.   Wink
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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2011, 07:15:23 AM »

John Jay, one of the framers of the Constitution, was appointed by George Washington in 1789 to be the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States (and later served two terms as governor of New York). He wrote, in a private letter(1797) to clergyman Jedidiah Morse:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

It is to be regretted, but so I believe the fact to be, that except the Bible there is not a true history in the world. Whatever may be the virtue, discernment, and industry of the writers, I am persuaded that truth and error (though in different degrees) will imperceptibly become and remain mixed and blended until they shall be separated forever by the great and last refining fire."
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« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2011, 07:24:14 AM »

Why are U.S. presidential and congressional elections on Tuesday?

"In 1845, and for many years after that, only the county seats had a polling places. For many voters, this meant at least an overnight trip on horseback or buggy. If the election were held on Monday, people would have to leave on Sunday, which in 1845, was reserved for church."

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=post;topic=387396.25;num_replies=44
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« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2011, 08:22:14 AM »

Why are U.S. presidential and congressional elections on Tuesday?

"In 1845, and for many years after that, only the county seats had a polling places. For many voters, this meant at least an overnight trip on horseback or buggy. If the election were held on Monday, people would have to leave on Sunday, which in 1845, was reserved for church."

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=post;topic=387396.25;num_replies=44

this argument is non-sequitor. Say obama instilled muslim tradition today would that make the US a muslim nation founded on muslim principles? if something occured in 1845 it doesnt change the foundation, just the same as if something occured today.
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« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2011, 08:28:41 AM »

US Supreme Court Building, Moses and The 10 Commandments







I have to wonder which set of 10 commandments Moses is shown to be holding there... The ones he smashed or the ones he got that replaced the smashed ones that were different and rarely mentioned by preachers.
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« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2011, 08:30:39 AM »

US Supreme Court,  Marsh v. Chambers

"In light of the history, there can be no doubt that the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer has become part of the fabric of our society. To invoke divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, a violation of the Establishment Clause; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0463_0783_ZS.html

And yet, even with the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer, politicians still seem to screw things up... weird huh?
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« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2011, 08:33:32 AM »

I have to wonder which set of 10 commandments Moses is shown to be holding there... The ones he smashed or the ones he got that replaced the smashed ones that were different and rarely mentioned by preachers.

And your point is?
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