Author Topic: Christian Nation  (Read 18433 times)

IrishMuscle84

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2011, 09:33:23 PM »
;D


Romans 12:2

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.


I don't remember ever reading that one  ???  Can you please post the scripture?
Honestly......Im not quite sure if thats a verse/scripture from the bible or from some Christian song. But like i said........SPERM=$$$$$$$$.......Reproduction.......More people more money. " Every sperm is sacred". Ya, thats government talk right there. Sperm=$$$$$$ WE ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A SS # and MONEY too the goverment. Man, im glad i have schizotypal personality.

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #101 on: July 05, 2011, 01:32:34 AM »
many of the founding fathers were deists

John Adams and John Jay may have been Christians

"Make no mistake, the founding fathers were not Christian". He also says they were not deists.

 ???

Necrosis

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #102 on: July 05, 2011, 06:54:23 AM »
???

many of the founding fathers may have been deists. However, mr magoo may know more about the subject then me. Not sure where his phrases were taken from, but are they in context? what does the rest of the sentence say, i hope its not cherry picked.

Mr. Magoo

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #103 on: July 05, 2011, 07:04:08 AM »
???

In regards to 1st quote: Necrosis's statement is what most knowledgeable people automatically agree on.

In regards to 2nd quote: I said that John Adams and John Jay may have been christians, just going by what I know. But others of course know more. I personally have more evidence for the others I mentioned than I do for Adams and Jay.

In regards to 3rd quote: The last quote is what the guy in the Book TV talk on CSPAN 2 said. Did you bother to watch it? His comment about them not being deists went against the common thought of the crowd. He said it without any evidence and then said he would return to that statement during the Q&A, but I didn't see him return to it during the Q&A. He may have but I missed it. But he did make it a point to say they were not christians.

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #104 on: July 05, 2011, 07:36:00 AM »
In regards to 1st quote: Necrosis's statement is what most knowledgeable people automatically agree on.

In regards to 2nd quote: I said that John Adams and John Jay may have been christians, just going by what I know. But others of course know more. I personally have more evidence for the others I mentioned than I do for Adams and Jay.

In regards to 3rd quote: The last quote is what the guy in the Book TV talk on CSPAN 2 said. Did you bother to watch it? His comment about them not being deists went against the common thought of the crowd. He said it without any evidence and then said he would return to that statement during the Q&A, but I didn't see him return to it during the Q&A. He may have but I missed it. But he did make it a point to say they were not christians.

Necrosis said that many of founding fathers were deist.

Mr. Magoo said that two of founding fathers may have been Christians.

Then Mr. Magoo quotes a historian who said that the founding fathers were neither Christians nor Deists.

Either Necrosis and  Mr. Magoo are wrong, or the historian is wrong.  They can't both be right.

Agnostic007

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #105 on: July 05, 2011, 07:52:33 AM »
Necrosis said that many of founding fathers were deist.

Mr. Magoo said that two of founding fathers may have been Christians.

Then Mr. Magoo quotes a historian who said that the founding fathers were neither Christians nor Deists.

Either Necrosis and  Mr. Magoo are wrong, or the historian is wrong.  They can't both be right.

Perhaps it's not a matter of wrong or right, but that the subject itself is not clear cut and there are many opinions on it.

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #106 on: July 05, 2011, 07:54:30 AM »
Perhaps it's not a matter of wrong or right, but that the subject itself is not clear cut and there are many opinions on it.

Then "fundies and repubs" are not wrong when they say that the founding fathers were Christians.

Agnostic007

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #107 on: July 05, 2011, 07:55:55 AM »
Then I'm not wrong when I say that the founding fathers were Christians.

LOL! Yeah, you are... the sentence is a broad brush and states all were christians when the evidence is clear not all were. Now to what extent some where Christian or Deists, or Theists, well that is arguable.

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #108 on: July 05, 2011, 07:58:51 AM »
LOL! Yeah, you are... the sentence is a broad brush and states all were christians when the evidence is clear not all were. Now to what extent some where Christian or Deists, or Theists, well that is arguable.

Then the historian that Mr. Magoo quoted is wrong for saying:

"Make no mistake, the founding fathers were not Christian". He also says they were not deists."


Mr. Magoo

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #109 on: July 05, 2011, 10:25:58 AM »
Necrosis said that many of founding fathers were deist.

Mr. Magoo said that two of founding fathers may have been Christians.

Then Mr. Magoo quotes a historian who said that the founding fathers were neither Christians nor Deists.

Either Necrosis and  Mr. Magoo are wrong, or the historian is wrong.  They can't both be right.

let's see if I can explain this where you will understand it. I granted you Adams and Jay for the sake of argument because I personally did not have enough evidence to disprove those two. In terms of religion, I know the least about Adams and Jay. That's why I said they may have been Christians. That means that Either A) They were Christian B) They were not Christians or C) One was christian while the other was not. That is completely compatible if it turns out that Adams and Jay were not Christians. Therefore, my statement and the historian's statement are compatible.

The only incompatible statements are Necrosis and the historian in saying the founding fathers were deists. I already said that when the guy on Book TV made that statement, he was obviously expecting a backlash for making a claim like that. That is why he said he would address it in the Q&A. However, he did not give any evidence in what I watched. So I cannot back up his claim, I can only quote him. So I personally do not know who was a deist and who was not. If you want to decide the question who was a deist and who was not, then I suggest reading the historian's book and examining his evidence. I hope you're not making the obvious mistake of saying "if they were not deist, then they were Christians."

However, you are overlooking one statement that is not in dispute. And that is neither the historian, the UVA law professor, Necrosis, Alan Dershowitz, any professor I have talked this over with, or me, along with many many others who I have referenced in this thread, accept the claim that "the founding fathers were christian". Your point that "the founding fathers were christian" is not supported without cherry picking sentences out of context and ignoring the whole picture.

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #110 on: July 05, 2011, 10:41:21 AM »
let's see if I can explain this where you will understand it. I granted you Adams and Jay for the sake of argument because I personally did not have enough evidence to disprove those two. In terms of religion, I know the least about Adams and Jay. That's why I said they may have been Christians. That means that Either A) They were Christian B) They were not Christians or C) One was christian while the other was not. That is completely compatible if it turns out that Adams and Jay were not Christians. Therefore, my statement and the historian's statement are compatible.

False!

Now you are changing your story because you have quoted a historian who contradicts both you and Necrosis. 

I thought you were done with this thread.

Agnostic007

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #111 on: July 05, 2011, 10:46:48 AM »
If the question is; Were all the founding fathers Christian?

The answer is no.

   

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #112 on: July 05, 2011, 10:55:50 AM »
If the question is; Were all the founding fathers Christian?

The answer is no.

   

That is not the question.

Mr. Magoo

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #113 on: July 05, 2011, 10:58:21 AM »
False!

Now you are changing your story because you have quoted a historian who contradicts both you and Necrosis. 

I thought you were done with this thread.

What part is false?  ???

Do I really have to explain the usage of the phrase "may have been"?


loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #114 on: July 05, 2011, 11:05:22 AM »
What part is false?  ???

Do I really have to explain the usage of the phrase "may have been"?



You are really going to tell us now that you know that none of the founding fathers were Christian, and why?  Because this historian you posted about said so?  With no explanation and no evidence presented?  Yeah, right!    ::)

I thought you were done with this thread.

Mr. Magoo

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #115 on: July 05, 2011, 11:14:52 AM »
You are really going to tell us now that you know that none of the founding fathers were Christian, and why?  Because this historian you posted about said so?  With no explanation and no evidence presented?  Yeah, right!    ::)

I thought you were done with this thread.

So I guess you aren't going to point out what part I was inconsistent.

You're trying to steer this discussion in a different direction. I am not going to tell you now that I know that none of the founding fathers were christian. I said Adams and Jay may have been (which Loco, means they may have not been too). I don't know about Adams and Jay. I said none of the evidence of the lives of Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, or George Washington point to a certain conclusion that they were Christian. The evidence of their lives and actions points to the conclusion that they were not christian.

I have given you....6 books I think in this thread, a youtube lecture, and a program on CSPAN featuring 3 authors who discuss this very topic, among these include a Harvard law professor, one is a UVA law professor, another professor at UVA, and one is a historian. None of these take up your position that "the founding fathers were christian." They take up the point that the founding fathers were not christian.

On the other hand, you have given a few cherry picked quotes out of letters that mention "creator" "prayer", etc with not one mention of Jesus, and you pasted an article written by a preacher. And you are going to claim that the statement "The founding fathers were Christian" is equally valid as "the founding fathers were not christian". That, my friend, is nothing short of comical.

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #116 on: July 05, 2011, 11:17:44 AM »
So I guess you aren't going to point out what part I was inconsistent.

You're trying to steer this discussion in a different direction. I am not going to tell you now that I know that none of the founding fathers were christian. I said Adams and Jay may have been (which Loco, means they may have not been too). I don't know about Adams and Jay. I said none of the evidence of the lives of Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, or George Washington point to a certain conclusion that they were Christian. The evidence of their lives and actions points to the conclusion that they were not christian.

I have given you....6 books I think in this thread, a youtube lecture, and a program on CSPAN featuring 3 authors who discuss this very topic, among these include a Harvard law professor, one is a UVA law professor, another professor at UVA, and one is a historian. None of these take up your position that "the founding fathers were christian." They take up the point that the founding fathers were not christian.

On the other hand, you have given a few cherry picked quotes out of letters that mention "creator" "prayer", etc with not one mention of Jesus, and you pasted an article written by a preacher. And you are going to claim that the statement "The founding fathers were Christian" is equally valid as "the founding fathers were not christian". That, my friend, is nothing short of comical.

Is this, which you posted, true or false?

"Make no mistake, the founding fathers were not Christian". He also says they were not deists."

Mr. Magoo

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2011, 11:20:44 AM »
Is this, which you posted, true or false?

"Make no mistake, the founding fathers were not Christian". He also says they were not deists."

Those sentences are both quotes by the historian from Book TV. I can't say for certain which is true or false, I can only say which way the evidence points.

The evidence points to the conclusion that the First sentence is true. I don't know about the evidence regarding the Second sentence. I suggest you read his book if you want to understand his point and evidence in saying the founding fathers were not deists.

Help any?

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2011, 11:23:25 AM »
Those sentences are both quotes by the historian from Book TV. I can't say for certain which is true or false, I can only say which way the evidence points.

The evidence points to the conclusion that the First sentence is true. I don't know about the evidence regarding the Second sentence. I suggest you read his book if you want to understand his point and evidence in saying the founding fathers were not deists.

Help any?


So you agree with this historian that none of the founding fathers were Christian.  You said that he presented no evidence to back up his claim.

Mr. Magoo

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2011, 11:30:29 AM »

So you agree with this historian that none of the founding fathers were Christian.  You said that he presented no evidence to back up his claim.

I think you're trying to get me twisted, but I'll play along. If, by agreeing, you mean that I 100% know it's true that the founding fathers were not christian, then no. If, by agreeing, you mean that I think the evidence presented points to a very strong probability of the conclusion being drawn that the founding fathers were not christian, then yes.

I said the historian presented no evidence for the statement that the founding fathers were not deists. In regard to "Were the founding fathers deists or not?" I again suggest you read his book and examine his evidence presented in his book. I personally have no evidence to back up or refute the claim "the founding fathers were not deists." Therefore I will withold judgement.

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2011, 11:38:42 AM »
I think you're trying to get me twisted, but I'll play along. If, by agreeing, you mean that I 100% know it's true that the founding fathers were not christian, then no. If, by agreeing, you mean that I think the evidence presented points to a very strong probability of the conclusion being drawn that the founding fathers were not christian, then yes.

I said the historian presented no evidence for the statement that the founding fathers were not deists. In regard to "Were the founding fathers deists or not?" I again suggest you read his book and examine his evidence presented in his book. I personally have no evidence to back up or refute the claim "the founding fathers were not deists." Therefore I will withold judgement.

Where is this evidence that none of the founding fathers were Christian?

Roger Bacon

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2011, 12:11:58 PM »
you have given a few cherry picked quotes out of letters that mention "creator" "prayer", etc with not one mention of Jesus, and you pasted an article written by a preacher.

 ;D

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #122 on: July 05, 2011, 12:55:47 PM »

you have given a few cherry picked quotes out of letters that mention "creator" "prayer", etc with not one mention of Jesus, and you pasted an article written by a preacher.

 ;D

Is that so?   ;)


George Washington

General Orders, (July 9, 1776)  George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress, 1741-1799: Series 3g Varick Transcripts
"The Hon. Continental Congress having been pleased to allow a Chaplain to each Regiment, with the pay of Thirty-three Dollars and one third pr month -- The Colonels or commanding officers of each regiment are directed to procure Chaplains accordingly; persons of good Characters and exemplary lives -- To see that all inferior officers and soldiers pay them a suitable respect and attend carefully upon religious exercises. The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger -- The General hopes and trusts, that every officer and man, will endeavour so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

General Orders (May 2, 1778); published in Writings of George Washington (1932), Vol.XI, pp. 342-343
"The Commander in Chief directs that divine Service be performed every Sunday at 11 oClock in those Brigades to which there are Chaplains; those which have none to attend the places of worship nearest to them. It is expected that Officers of all Ranks will by their attendence set an Example to their men. While we are zealously performing the duties of good Citizens and soldiers we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of Religion. To the distinguished Character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more distinguished Character of Christian. The signal Instances of providential Goodness which we have experienced and which have now almost crowned our labours with complete Success, demand from us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of Gratitude and Piety to the Supreme Author of all Good."

Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs (May 12, 1779); published in The Writings of George Washington (1932), Vol.XV, p. 55
"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it."


John Adams

Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1812
"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion."

Diary, 26 July 1796:
"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity."


Thomas Jefferson

April 21, 1803 letter to Doctor Benjamin Rush
"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence"

Note: Thomas Jefferson loved Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospels so much that he took the time and effort to write a compilation of his favorite parts of the Gospels, which was published after his death and came to be known as The Jefferson Bible.



Benjamin Franklin

1790 letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see"



John Jay

1797 letter to clergyman Jedidiah Morse
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

"It is to be regretted, but so I believe the fact to be, that except the Bible there is not a true history in the world. Whatever may be the virtue, discernment, and industry of the writers, I am persuaded that truth and error (though in different degrees) will imperceptibly become and remain mixed and blended until they shall be separated forever by the great and last refining fire."

Dos Equis

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #123 on: July 05, 2011, 02:05:23 PM »
Doh!   :)

Dos Equis

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #124 on: July 05, 2011, 02:06:12 PM »
you have a skewed via of reality.

Nah.  Just reading an entertaining thread.  El Profeta knows his stuff.   :)