Christian Nation

[Man of Steel]

why do i hear fundies and repubs continue to say that america was founded on christianity, that this is a christian nation? do they not know the constitution or are they willingly lying and ignorant?

I think what folks should say is that the structure of government is founded on christian scripture.  The judicial, legislative and executive branches follow the same outline of that found in scripture:

"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; it is he who will save us."  Isaiah 33:22

[loco]

I think what folks should say is that the structure of government is founded on christian scripture.  The judicial, legislative and executive branches follow the same outline of that found in scripture:

"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; it is he who will save us."  Isaiah 33:22

Great post, Man of Steel!

The Judicial, Legislative and Executive branches of the US government right there in a single verse of the Bible.  Not like we didn't already know the founding fathers read the Bible.    

[Mr. Magoo]

I think what folks should say is that the structure of government is founded on christian scripture.  The judicial, legislative and executive branches follow the same outline of that found in scripture:

"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; it is he who will save us."  Isaiah 33:22

So there werent any lawgivers or judges or kings at the time that was written in the bible?  

There is also a bit of difference between "king" and "executive branch". At least enough difference to acknowledge when making a comparison like that. Also in that verse the Lord is in charge of all 3, that is not the same in our government. We counteract ambition with ambition, etc. The different functions of government have appeared in numerous texts all throughout history.

[Man of Steel]

So there werent any lawgivers or judges or kings at the time that was written in the bible?  

There is also a bit of difference between "king" and "executive branch". At least enough difference to acknowledge when making a comparison like that. Also in that verse the Lord is in charge of all 3, that is not the same in our government. We counteract ambition with ambition, etc. The different functions of government have appeared in numerous texts all throughout history.

Yes, there were judges and kings at the time the bible was written.

Yes, there is a difference between a king and an executive branch, and both represent leadership.

Yes, the Lord is in charge of all 3 and everything else.  Since man can't be God we strive to follow the plan God laid out as best we're able in accordance with God's will.

Yes, the different functions of government have appeared in numerous texts all throughout history.  The US is simply rooted in Christianity and the scriptural structure outlined therein.  

[Mr. Magoo]

Yes, there were judges and kings at the time the bible was written.

Yes, there is a difference between a king and an executive branch, and both represent leadership.

Yes, the Lord is in charge of all 3 and everything else.  Since man can't be God we strive to follow the plan God laid out as best we're able according to God's will.

Yes, the different functions of government have appeared in numerous texts all throughout history.  The US is simply rooted in Christianity and the scriptural structure outlined therein.  

whoa whoa whoa. You were doing good up to that last point. Let us examine the country then. Blacks could be owned and beaten/raped at free will. Native Americans could be killed and raped at free will. Women had no rights. The founders violently overthrew the government. So in what way was the US simply rooted in Christianity?

By the way, it's an inside joke among political theorists when discussing Tocqueville, his section that says how great equality was in America when he wrote Democracy in America. Christianity prides itself on equality correct? (we are all sinners, we all need Jesus. The first shall be last, the last shall be first. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than rich man to get into heaven, etc etc). The US is rooted deeply in inequality.

[loco]

I think you're trying to get me twisted, but I'll play along. If, by agreeing, you mean that I 100% know it's true that the founding fathers were not christian, then no. If, by agreeing, you mean that I think the evidence presented points to a very strong probability of the conclusion being drawn that the founding fathers were not christian, then yes.

I said the historian presented no evidence for the statement that the founding fathers were not deists. In regard to "Were the founding fathers deists or not?" I again suggest you read his book and examine his evidence presented in his book. I personally have no evidence to back up or refute the claim "the founding fathers were not deists." Therefore I will withold judgement.

Where is this evidence that none of the founding fathers were Christian?

[Mr. Magoo]

Where is this evidence that none of the founding fathers were Christian?

You bold the word "none". So i'm going to focus on that word. You did not ask "where is the evidence that most/some/any/etc of the founding fathers were not christian".

The historian in the Book TV talk said "make no mistake, the founding fathers were not christian". I'm going to assume that he talks more about it in his book, which one again, if you want evidence to back up the author's point he made in a discussion about his book...I suggest you read his book.

Since you focused on the word "none", I feel like you are about to do the traditional fallacy of appealing to ignorance. Of course you know this is when someone says "Since you cannot prove for certain "Not-X" then it is equally valid for me to say "X". The "X" in this case = the founding fathers were christian. I feel that you are about to say "since you cannot prove for certain that the founding fathers were not christian, then my point equally stands that they were christian." This of course is wrong. Place any statement you want to in place of "X" in the above scenario and see that it doesn't work. For example, make X= Ben Franklin was an alien. It is impossible to prove that Ben Franklin was not an alien. This does not mean that ben franklin was an alien. The evidence points to a certain conclusion on both instances. The evidence points to a conclusion that the founding fathers (I don't personally know about Adams or Jay) were not christian. This evidence has been presented in this thread via 7 books authored by people such as Harvard Law professor, UVA law professor, another professor from UVA, a historian, etc.

Anything else?

[loco]

The historian in the Book TV talk said "make no mistake, the founding fathers were not christian". I'm going to assume that he talks more about it in his book, which one again, if you want evidence to back up the author's point he made in a discussion about his book...I suggest you read his book.

So you are going to "assume" that this author, who contradicts both you an Necrosis, presents evidence of his claim in his book that none of the founding fathers were Christian, a book which you have not read, and you are telling me to go read it if I want evidence?  Nice! 

[loco]

many of the founding fathers were deists

John Adams and John Jay may have been Christians

"Make no mistake, the founding fathers were not Christian". He also says they were not deists.

many of the founding fathers may have been deists. However, mr magoo may know more about the subject then me.

I granted you Adams and Jay for the sake of argument because I personally did not have enough evidence to disprove those two. In terms of religion, I know the least about Adams and Jay.

No offense to Mr. Magoo and Necrosis, but it is evident that you two don't know what you are talking about here, and you are making claims with no evidence to back them up, simply repeating another person's ignorant claims without looking into it first!

[loco]

Alexis de Tocqueville (29 July 1805, Paris – 16 April 1859, Cannes) was a French political thinker and historian  best known for his Democracy in America (appearing in two volumes: 1835 and 1840) and The Old Regime and the Revolution (1856). In both of these works, he explored the effects of the rising equality of social conditions on the individual and the state in western societies. Democracy in America (1835), his major work, published after his travels in the United States, is today considered an early work of sociology and political science.


    
Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, (New York: A. S. Barnes & Co., 1851), pp. 331, 332, 335, 336-7, 337, respectively.

"Moreover, almost all the sects of the United States are comprised within the great unity of Christianity, and Christian morality is everywhere the same. In the United States the sovereign authority is religious, and consequently hypocrisy must be common; but there is no country in the whole world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility, and of its conformity to human nature, than that its influence is most powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.

   The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other; and with them this conviction does not spring from that barren traditionary faith which seems to vegetate in the soul rather than to live.

    There are certain populations in Europe whose unbelief is only equaled by their ignorance and their debasement, while in America one of the freest and most enlightened nations in the world fulfills all the outward duties of religion with fervor.

    Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country."

[Mr. Magoo]

So you are going to "assume" that this author, who contradicts both you an Necrosis, presents evidence of his claim in his book that none of the founding fathers were Christian, a book which you have not read, and you are telling me to go read it if I want evidence?  Nice! 

Put your big boy thinking cap on. I'm going to assume that an author who made a point when discussing his book, provides more evidence for that point in his book. That is not a far fetch assumption Loco. Also, the author never did contradict me. He only contradicted Necrosis point about the founding father being deists. I said Adams and Jay may have been Christian. This loco, as any grown man knows, is interchangeable with "could have been". That means my point was that they could have been, could not have been, or 1 could have been while the other was not. I simply do not have enough info to back up either one. If you want to read evidence for the author's 2 claims of 1) None of the founding fathers were christian and 2) The founding fathers were not deists. Go read his book. Also, as I already stated, I only watched 45 minutes of the Book TV talk. He may have provided more evidence for those two claims within those talks. So if you want the evidence from the author to back up the author's points, either A) Watch the Book TV talk or B) Read his book which I provided the link for. How is this hard to understand? 

[Mr. Magoo]

No offense to Mr. Magoo and Necrosis, but it is evident that you two don't know what you are talking about here, and you are making claims with no evidence to back them up, simply repeating another person's ignorant claims without looking into it first!

I've already addressed this "issue", which isn't even a real issue. I think you think the "make no mistake, the founding fathers were not christian" is my quote. It is not. It is the author's quote. Keeping that in mind, look back over the sentences. You're a big boy, the phrase "may have been" is the same as "could have been". This does not mean for certain they were or were not. Keeping that in mind look back over the sentences. The only two sentences that are not compatible are Necrosis "the founding fathers were deists" and the Book TV's speaker "the founding fathers were not deists." Those are the only two sentences that contradict one another. I, personally, can't say whether Necrosis or the Author is right. I have heard more scholars agree with Necrosis, and in what I watched of the Book TV presentation, the historian did not back up the claim "the founding fathers were not deists." Therefore I cannot say for certain which one is right. Again, the only incompatible sentences are "the founding fathers were deist" and "the founding fathers were not deists."

And you think we have not looked into this subject? I have provided far more evidence by more qualified sources than you have. 7 books, 3 academic professors, one historian, a youtube lecture, a cspan discussion, etc.

[Mr. Magoo]

Alexis de Tocqueville (29 July 1805, Paris – 16 April 1859, Cannes) was a French political thinker and historian  best known for his Democracy in America (appearing in two volumes: 1835 and 1840) and The Old Regime and the Revolution (1856). In both of these works, he explored the effects of the rising equality of social conditions on the individual and the state in western societies. Democracy in America (1835), his major work, published after his travels in the United States, is today considered an early work of sociology and political science.


    
Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, (New York: A. S. Barnes & Co., 1851), pp. 331, 332, 335, 336-7, 337, respectively.

"Moreover, almost all the sects of the United States are comprised within the great unity of Christianity, and Christian morality is everywhere the same. In the United States the sovereign authority is religious, and consequently hypocrisy must be common; but there is no country in the whole world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility, and of its conformity to human nature, than that its influence is most powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.

   The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other; and with them this conviction does not spring from that barren traditionary faith which seems to vegetate in the soul rather than to live.

    There are certain populations in Europe whose unbelief is only equaled by their ignorance and their debasement, while in America one of the freest and most enlightened nations in the world fulfills all the outward duties of religion with fervor.

    Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country."

I know who Tocqueville is. I have that book and have read it and took a seminar with a Tocqueville scholar who has written several books on Tocqueville. I've already mentioned before that his batting average is not perfect. He thought there was astounding equality in America in the 1830s. This is obviously false. He thought that women had equal rights (Separate spheres), and I doubt anyone would agree with this. Even IF (and this is a big IF) we agree with him in regards to religion, that only means that in 1830s America, there were a lot of Christians in the areas he visited. This does not mean either 1) The founding fathers were without a doubt Christian or 2) The country's founding was based on scripture.

[loco]

I've already addressed this "issue", which isn't even a real issue. I think you think the "make no mistake, the founding fathers were not christian" is my quote. It is not. It is the author's quote. Keeping that in mind, look back over the sentences. You're a big boy, the phrase "may have been" is the same as "could have been". This does not mean for certain they were or were not. Keeping that in mind look back over the sentences. The only two sentences that are not compatible are Necrosis "the founding fathers were deists" and the Book TV's speaker "the founding fathers were not deists." Those are the only two sentences that contradict one another. I, personally, can't say whether Necrosis or the Author is right. I have heard more scholars agree with Necrosis, and in what I watched of the Book TV presentation, the historian did not back up the claim "the founding fathers were not deists." Therefore I cannot say for certain which one is right. Again, the only incompatible sentences are "the founding fathers were deist" and "the founding fathers were not deists."

And you think we have not looked into this subject? I have provided far more evidence by more qualified sources than you have. 7 books, 3 academic professors, one historian, a youtube lecture, a cspan discussion, etc.

I thought you were done with this thread:

Loco, I'm done with this thread.

Obsessed much?

LOL...you've provided zero evidence for your claims.

[Mr. Magoo]

I thought you were done with this thread:

Obsessed much?

LOL...you've provided zero evidence for your claims.

Throughout this thread I have pointed towards 7 books, a harvard law professor, a UVA law professor, a history professor at UVA, another Historian. I have posted a youtube lecture which discusses this. I have given you a heads up on a CSPAN talk which discusses this. I have pointed to the works and life of Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin which sheds light on this discussion. I have picked apart the declaration and the constitution. I have referenced a seminar I took with a Tocqueville scholar. Necrosis posted a CNN article. I have taken more classes with political theorists who graduated from MIT and Oxford along with other fine schools who have talked about this, which I of course can't "prove", in the same sense of the others so I have left out citing them.

You have provided a few cherry picked lines out of letters that don't even prove your point. You have pasted an article by a preacher. You have jumped off the path and pointed to several non-founding events to try to prove your point. You have made logical errors (appeal to ignorance). You don't know the difference between "may have been" and "were". And you keep repeating "I thought you was done with this thread, obsessed much?" because I don't think you have anything else.

and I have provided zero-evidence? Haha.

[loco]

Throughout this thread I have pointed towards 7 books, a harvard law professor, a UVA law professor, a history professor at UVA, another Historian. I have posted a youtube lecture which discusses this. I have given you a heads up on a CSPAN talk which discusses this. I have pointed to the works and life of Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin which sheds light on this discussion. I have picked apart the declaration and the constitution. I have referenced a seminar I took with a Tocqueville scholar. Necrosis posted a CNN article. I have taken more classes with political theorists who graduated from MIT and Oxford along with other fine schools who have talked about this, which I of course can't "prove", in the same sense of the others so I have left out citing them.

You have provided a few cherry picked lines out of letters that don't even prove your point. You have pasted an article by a preacher. You have jumped off the path and pointed to several non-founding events to try to prove your point. You have made logical errors (appeal to ignorance). And you keep repeating "I thought you was done with this thread, obsessed much?" because I don't think you have anything else.

and I have provided zero-evidence? Haha.

So are you done with this thread or not?  I guess your word means nothing, does it?

Telling me to go read a book, which you yourself have not even read, is not providing evidence of anything.  All you have done is quote a historian who contradicts both you and Necrosis.

[Mr. Magoo]

So are you done with this thread or not?  I guess your word means nothing, does it?

Telling me to go read a book, which you yourself haven't' even read, is not providing evidence of anything.  All you have done is quote a historian who contradicts both you and Necrosis.

Your first line is pointless, so I'll ignore that.

If I provided quotes from those books with citations, would that be any different than pointing to the book as a whole?   If you want to check up my sources, you would still have to get the book to read it. If I did provide quotes from those 7 books, that could easily be cherry picking. So to get a picture of the whole context and examine all evidence, of course it is better to read the whole book. I hope you also remember that I have provided more evidence than just 7 book titles.

And the historian did not contradict me. The historian contradicted Necrosis. If you want to keep on saying how the historian contradicted me, then please show it. You do know what "may have been" means right?  

[loco]

Your first line is pointless, so I'll ignore that.

If I provided quotes from those books with citations, would that be any different than pointing to the book as a whole?   If you want to check up my sources, you would still have to get the book to read it. If I did provide quotes from those 7 books, that could easily be cherry picking. So to get a picture of the whole context and examine all evidence, of course it is better to read the whole book. I hope you also remember that I have provided more evidence than just 7 book titles.

And the historian did not contradict me. The historian contradicted Necrosis. If you want to keep on saying how the historian contradicted me, then please show it. You do know what "may have been" means right?  

Why is it pointless?  You told me three days ago that you were done with this thread.  You also lied when you claimed that I said the US is a Christian nation, you lied when you said that I claimed all of the founding fathers were Christian and you lied when you said that I posted quotes from the founding fathers that mention only prayer and a creator, but nothing related to Jesus.

[loco]

why do i hear fundies and repubs continue to say that america was founded on christianity, that this is a christian nation? do they not know the constitution or are they willingly lying and ignorant?

Harvard University and Yale University were originally established to train Christian ministers.

Harvard University

"Harvard College was established in 1636 by vote of the Great and General Court of the Massachusetts Bay Colony and was named for its first benefactor, John Harvard of Charlestown, a young minister who, upon his death in 1638, left his library and half his estate to the new institution. Harvard's first scholarship fund was created in 1643 with a gift from Ann Radcliffe, Lady Mowlson.

During its early years, the College offered a classic academic course based on the English university model but consistent with the prevailing Puritan philosophy of the first colonists. Although many of its early graduates became ministers in Puritan congregations throughout New England, the College was never formally affiliated with a specific religious denomination. An early brochure, published in 1643, justified the College's existence: "To advance Learning and perpetuate it to Posterity; dreading to leave an illiterate Ministry to the Churches."

http://www.news.harvard.edu/guide/content/history-harvard-university

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University#Colonial


Yale University

Yale’s roots can be traced back to the 1640s, when colonial clergymen led an effort to establish a college in New Haven to preserve the tradition of European liberal education in the New World. This vision was fulfilled in 1701, when the charter was granted for a school “wherein Youth may be instructed in the Arts and Sciences [and] through the blessing of Almighty God may be fitted for Publick employment both in Church and Civil State.”

http://www.yale.edu/about/history.html

[Mr. Magoo]

Why is it pointless?  You told me three days ago that you were done with this thread.  You also lied when you claimed that I said the US is a Christian nation, you lied when you said that I claimed all of the founding fathers were Christian and you lied when you said that I posted quotes from the founding fathers that mention only prayer and a creator, but nothing related to Jesus.

I didn't lie, I was done with this thread at that time. Then Beach Bum came on here and said he agreed with you, so I thought obviously I was missing something. So I came back. But I still don't see what I'm missing. That takes care of your first two sentences.

When I said that you said the US is a christian nation, I meant in terms of being founded upon Christianity. That was the definition I was using for "christian nation". You was using "christian nation" to mean a theocracy. I did not lie then, just different operating definitions which you never picked up on. That takes care of the first part of your second sentence.

You did say that all the founding fathers were Christian. You said it in a reply to PIP, and you said it in the thread that Beach Bum posted a link to, and you said it again recently in this thread. You have not admitted that any founding fathers were not christian. When I started to prove you wrong, you started to say "i don't know for sure if they were", then you said you were only showing why people believe they were christian (which of course takes your own perspective out of the discussion). That takes care of the second part of your second sentence.

And your quotes do not mention Jesus. The only ones that mention Jesus was the Revolutionary motto and the Adams and Jay quotes I think (which you will remember that for sake of argument I granted you Adams and Jay for reasons already stated, so their quotes do not matter for this purpose.) That takes part of the last part of the second sentence.

Anything else?

[Mr. Magoo]

Harvard University and Yale University were originally established to train Christian ministers.

Harvard University

"Harvard College was established in 1636

Yale University

Yale’s roots can be traced back to the 1640s, when colonial clergymen led an effort to establish a college in New Haven to preserve the tradition of European liberal education in the New World. This vision was fulfilled in 1701,

Look at those dates. Notice they were long before the country was founded. Our country being founded did not depend on the original purpose of Harvard and Yale. Wasn't that back when they only allowed rich white males? Very christian behavior  

[loco]

I didn't lie, I was done with this thread at that time. Then Beach Bum came on here and said he agreed with you, so I thought obviously I was missing something. So I came back. But I still don't see what I'm missing. That takes care of your first two sentences.

When I said that you said the US is a christian nation, I meant in terms of being founded upon Christianity. That was the definition I was using for "christian nation". You was using "christian nation" to mean a theocracy. I did not lie then, just different operating definitions which you never picked up on. That takes care of the first part of your second sentence.

You did say that all the founding fathers were Christian. You said it in a reply to PIP, and you said it in the thread that Beach Bum posted a link to, and you said it again recently in this thread. You have not admitted that any founding fathers were not christian. When I started to prove you wrong, you started to say "i don't know for sure if they were", then you said you were only showing why people believe they were christian (which of course takes your own perspective out of the discussion). That takes care of the second part of your second sentence.

And your quotes do not mention Jesus. The only ones that mention Jesus was the Revolutionary motto and the Adams and Jay quotes I think (which you will remember that for sake of argument I granted you Adams and Jay for reasons already stated, so their quotes do not matter for this purpose.) That takes part of the last part of the second sentence.

Anything else?

Just out of curiosity, when did I say that allthe founding fathers were Christian.  Please quote me.  Use the quote link on the forum.

And as for your claim that my founding father quotes mention only prayer and creation in general:



George Washington

General Orders, (July 9, 1776)  George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress, 1741-1799: Series 3g Varick Transcripts
"The Hon. Continental Congress having been pleased to allow a Chaplain to each Regiment, with the pay of Thirty-three Dollars and one third pr month -- The Colonels or commanding officers of each regiment are directed to procure Chaplains accordingly; persons of good Characters and exemplary lives -- To see that all inferior officers and soldiers pay them a suitable respect and attend carefully upon religious exercises. The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger -- The General hopes and trusts, that every officer and man, will endeavour so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

General Orders (May 2, 1778); published in Writings of George Washington (1932), Vol.XI, pp. 342-343
"The Commander in Chief directs that divine Service be performed every Sunday at 11 oClock in those Brigades to which there are Chaplains; those which have none to attend the places of worship nearest to them. It is expected that Officers of all Ranks will by their attendence set an Example to their men. While we are zealously performing the duties of good Citizens and soldiers we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of Religion. To the distinguished Character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more distinguished Character of Christian. The signal Instances of providential Goodness which we have experienced and which have now almost crowned our labours with complete Success, demand from us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of Gratitude and Piety to the Supreme Author of all Good."

Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs (May 12, 1779); published in The Writings of George Washington (1932), Vol.XV, p. 55
"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it."


John Adams

Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1812
"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion."

Diary, 26 July 1796:
"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity."


Thomas Jefferson

April 21, 1803 letter to Doctor Benjamin Rush
"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence"

Note: Thomas Jefferson loved Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospels so much that he took the time and effort to write a compilation of his favorite parts of the Gospels, which was published after his death and came to be known as The Jefferson Bible.



Benjamin Franklin

1790 letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see"



John Jay

1797 letter to clergyman Jedidiah Morse
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

"It is to be regretted, but so I believe the fact to be, that except the Bible there is not a true history in the world. Whatever may be the virtue, discernment, and industry of the writers, I am persuaded that truth and error (though in different degrees) will imperceptibly become and remain mixed and blended until they shall be separated forever by the great and last refining fire."

[loco]

John Quincy Adams

Speech to the U.S. House of Representatives, July 4, 1821

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected, in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

[Mr. Magoo]

Just out of curiosity, when did I say that allthe founding fathers were Christian.  Please quote me.  Use the quote link on the forum.

This is becoming really too easy.

Then "fundies and repubs" are not wrong when they say that the founding fathers were Christians.

Hey, nobody wants a theocracy and neither did the Founding Fathers. That's not what we are saying here.  We're just saying that the Founding Fathers were Christians and that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

All I'm saying is that the Founding Fathers were Christians and that they founded the United States of America upon Judeo-Christian principles.

No, I'm not speculating.  Like it or not,  the Founding Fathers were Christians and they founded the United States of America upon Judeo-Christian principles.  It's history and it's a fact.

You never said "some" "most" "part of", etc. As stated in your quotes, your sentences mean "all".

[loco]

This is becoming really too easy.

You never said "some" "most" "part of", etc. As stated in your quotes, your sentences mean "all".

If this is valid,

"Make no mistake, the founding fathers were not Christian". He also says they were not deists.

then this is valid as well.

Then "fundies and repubs" are not wrong when they say that the founding fathers were Christians.

And why are you so concerned that Beach Bum doesn't believe your claims that you have put so much time and effort into this thread after you assured me three days ago that you were done with it?