The War in Iraq and Afghanistan, was/is it worth it?

[bears]

Fuck yes they were.

i've never actually heard a conspiracy theory specifically implicating them.  thats why i find the theories so irritating. 

[Bindare_Dundat]

Ozmo laying down the cold hard facts. 

[bears]

Ozmo laying down the cold hard facts. 

educated guess i'll give him.  cold hard facts?  come on man.

[Deicide]

educated guess i'll give him.  cold hard facts?  come on man.

One man stood agains the war machine...

[bears]

One man stood agains the war machine...

i never knew his stance was that firm back then.  thats pretty damn cool.  it's interesting what he says about "you must be willing to win the war".  Which is very much along the lines of what I have been saying for a few years now. 

[OzmO]

One man stood agains the war machine...

Plain talk for sure.  Hard to argue.

I would say in addition to that, that the one thing any Dictator  will never jeopardize is their hold on power.   Any significant offensive attack outside Iraq would have been the end for Saddam and he knew it.  ESPECIALLY after 9/11.

[Deicide]

i never knew his stance was that firm back then.  thats pretty damn cool.  it's interesting what he says about "you must be willing to win the war".  Which is very much along the lines of what I have been saying for a few years now. 

Ron Paul has never wavered, even 30 years ago.

[OzmO]

i never knew his stance was that firm back then.  thats pretty damn cool.  it's interesting what he says about "you must be willing to win the war".  Which is very much along the lines of what I have been saying for a few years now. 

I didn't either.  I respect him more now. 

[bears]

I didn't either.  I respect him more now. 

yup.  me too.

[Fury]

Dictators are a threat to everybody......they are a threat to human kind....we cannot always look the other way when regimes are inherently evil and murder and abuse their citizens....we as a civilized people should by all means topple these dictators when it is possible to do so......some would argue against this doctrine but its my belief

Between 500,000 and 1.5 million native Darfurians were massacred by the imperialist Arab Muslim janjaweed (usually hacked to death while the women were gang-raped) in Sudan and the President of North Sudan has an active warrant on his head for crimes against humanity yet no one does anything about it. So piss off with your bleeding heart "I want to save the oppressed" trash. The whole world sat there and pulled their dicks while the OIC stonewalled everything at the UN regarding Darfur. 

People like you and the UN are gigantic hypocrites and further proof that the billions of dollars we funnel to that inept, incompetent organization and various third-world shitholes every year is completely for naught. People only care about dictators when it suits their agenda. For even more proof, see Syria, where Assad has massacred countless more civilians than Gadhafi has.

[andreisdaman]

right and when they do they are accused of exploiting a weaker country for financial gain by the members of the non incumbent party.  i.e. half of the country.  it's none of our business unless it will negatively affect us.  I disagree.  it's simply not our reponsibility.   

I disagree with you that it is simply none of our business.....the U.S. has traditionally stood up for human rights and we must continue to do so......we can't stand idly by all the time and let people be slaughtered...we have to stand for something.....not doing anything is the easy and coward's way out

[Deicide]

I disagree with you that it is simply none of our business.....the U.S. has traditionally stood up for human rights and we must continue to do so......we can't stand idly by all the time and let people be slaughtered...we have to stand for something.....not doing anything is the easy and coward's way out

LMFAO

The US has only stood for these things when it was covenient for our special interests, the US didn't give a shit about Rwanda, Sudan, Indonesia and countless other countries. The US intervenes abroad because it serves certain special interests that have nothing to do with human rights.

[andreisdaman]

Between 500,000 and 1.5 million native Darfurians were massacred by the imperialist Arab Muslim janjaweed (usually hacked to death while the women were gang-raped) in Sudan and the President of North Sudan has an active warrant on his head for crimes against humanity yet no one does anything about it. So piss off with your bleeding heart "I want to save the oppressed" trash. The whole world sat there and pulled their dicks while the OIC stonewalled everything at the UN regarding Darfur.  

People like you and the UN are gigantic hypocrites and further proof that the billions of dollars we funnel to that inept, incompetent organization and various third-world shitholes every year is completely for naught. People only care about dictators when it suits their agenda. For even more proof, see Syria, where Assad has massacred countless more civilians than Gadhafi has.

I guess you see my name attached to a post and you automatically freak out..sorry I have that affect on you...I guess it comes from all the times I've owned you...

It has nothing to do with being a bleeding heart as you put it.....I am a realist......not a limousine liberal nor a hard right neo-con like you..I don't live in fantasy like you.....realistically, it has always been United States policy to stand up for human rights and the oppressed.....yes we have supported dictators as long as they were able to keep order and not lose their grip on power to the point where they have to use the military on civilians..thats usually where the U.S. jumps off the bandwagon and turns against said regime......

the fact is the Libya operation was the exact scenario mentioned above...Ghadaffi was convenient for us until he began to murder his way into staying in power....the U.S. then changed its policy toward him as they should have..Obama did a very good job and this has been the consensus..

Saddham was an indirect threat to the U.S.. he was constantly making war with his neighbors which drew us in to defend Kuwait and he was allegedly financing terror, paying the families of palestinian suicide bombers when they committed acts against Israel

sorry you have to be wrong again
this is the real politick......whether you like it or not......

[andreisdaman]

LMFAO

The US has only stood for these things when it was covenient for our special interests, the US didn't give a shit about Rwanda, Sudan, Indonesia and countless other countries. The US intervenes abroad because it serves certain special interests that have nothing to do with human rights.

of course...and whats wrong with that???..we simply cannot squander our resources by intervening everywhere..we have to pick and choose our spots..what you are saying above is nothing new

[Deicide]

of course...and whats wrong with that???..we simply cannot squander our resources by intervening everywhere..we have to pick and choose our spots..what you are saying above is nothing new

Nothing new, sure but that was not the point. The US does not, I repeat, intervene for human rights, it intervenes for special interests that have nothing to do with most American people's interests. You invoke realpolitk but the fact is that it is not necessary to do the 'pick a dictator routine' for the US to be prosperous, in fact it hurts the country.

[Fury]

LMFAO

The US has only stood for these things when it was covenient for our special interests, the US didn't give a shit about Rwanda, Sudan, Indonesia and countless other countries. The US intervenes abroad because it serves certain special interests that have nothing to do with human rights.

Boofuckinghoo. No one else on the planet gave a shit about those, either. And that includes those Eurotrash countries you worship.

[andreisdaman]

Nothing new, sure but that was not the point. The US does not, I repeat, intervene for human rights, it intervenes for special interests that have nothing to do with most American people's interests. You invoke realpolitk but the fact is that it is not necessary to do the 'pick a dictator routine' for the US to be prosperous, in fact it hurts the country.

the U.S. only does this when the alternative would be much worse

[GigantorX]

the U.S. only does this when the alternative would be much worse

And when would that be?

[andreisdaman]

And when would that be?

well..examples....

1...U.S. supported Saddham for a time due to their not wanting Iran to gain more influence in teh region....Saddham was a buffer to prevent this from happening

2. U.S. supported the dictator of the Phillipines, Fernando Marcos, for many years in part because he was a staunch anti-communist and prevented the Marxist Guerilla movement there from taking over

3. U.S. was staunch supporter of many of the dictatorships in south America during the 60's and 70's due to their keeping the communists out of power and fighting the various leftist Guerilla movements

4. U.S. was staunch supporter of Mubarak in Egypt for 30 years due to their not wanting the Islamists to take over..when they began to murder people, support was dropped

5. U.S. supported military dictatorship in Pakistan because the alternative would have been Islamists taking over and having access to the bomb

I could name many many more.....

[tu_holmes]

Boofuckinghoo. No one else on the planet gave a shit about those, either. And that includes those Eurotrash countries you worship.

I still don't care about them... But then I don't care about the middle east at all... except when it comes to my gas tank.

Can I just take the oil and run?

[Fury]

I still don't care about them... But then I don't care about the middle east at all... except when it comes to my gas tank.

Can I just take the oil and run?

Just think, if the EnviroNazis on the left weren't fucking our country and economy, we could drill our way to our own oil (making up whatever difference with Canada, if need be) and give a big "fuck you" to the Middle East.

[tu_holmes]

Just think, if the EnviroNazis on the left weren't fucking our country and economy, we could drill our way to our own oil (making up whatever difference with Canada, if need be) and give a big "fuck you" to the Middle East.

I have thought about this many, many times.

It's why I always think to myself... If you do the best you can to not cause an environmental issue, then let's do the best we can and drill for oil at home.

The only time it makes sense to not is if we're trying to take all of their oil first, then turn around and sell it to the rest of the world for A GAZILLION times what it is now when we are the only oil producing nation left.

Of course, no one ever says that's the plan, so how would I know. :/

[andreisdaman]

Just think, if the EnviroNazis on the left weren't fucking our country and economy, we could drill our way to our own oil (making up whatever difference with Canada, if need be) and give a big "fuck you" to the Middle East.

"EnviroNazis"?....how old are you anyway???.......It is good that the environmentalists do not allow the oil industry or the coal industry or any other industry to just do as they please and destroy the environment in any way they see fit..yes I find them to be a pain in the ass as well sometimes but you know what??..they serve a vital purpose and are a check against the business lobby which is a good thing..this is why compared to countries like Russia and china our air, food, and water are pretty good.......those countries have unchecked business and gov't interests and their environments are truly fucked up and some may never be cleaned up due to the severity of the pollution..... China has the worse fog and food problems.....Russia has severe problems with nuclear waste and unclean water..and lets not even talk about chernobyl

again..your thought process shows one-dimensional thinking

[Fury]

"EnviroNazis"?....how old are you anyway???.......It is good that the environmentalists do not allow the oil industry or the coal industry or any other industry to just do as they please and destroy the environment in any way they see fit..yes I find them to be a pain in the ass as well sometimes but you know what??..they serve a vital purpose and are a check against the business lobby which is a good thing..this is why compared to countries like Russia and china our air, food, and water are pretty good.......those countries have unchecked business and gov't interests and their environments are truly fucked up and some may never be cleaned up due to the severity of the pollution..... China has the worse fog and food problems.....Russia has severe problems with nuclear waste and unclean water..and lets not even talk about chernobyl

again..your thought process shows one-dimensional thinking

Who said anything about completely unhinged drilling? Quote me on it and I'll delete my account tonight.

I have no respect for people who would rather see this country's economy run into the ground if it means keeping a few carbons out of the air. Especially when what we do means fuck-all in the grand scheme of things given the uninhibited pollution coming from countries like China and India. The only thing we're doing is keeping this country's recovery down.

There is no proof whatsoever that fracking is hazardous to the environment. The only thing you people have to lean on is a fabricated piece of propaganda. With no proof after years/decades of fracking I'm willing to risk it if it means putting people back to work.

You keep claiming that you're "moderate" and "lean right" yet everything you post reeks of far-left insanity. If the shoe fits.

Learn to punctuate, too. You come off even stupider when....you....type...li ke....this.

[andreisdaman]

Who said anything about completely unhinged drilling? Quote me on it and I'll delete my account tonight.

I have no respect for people who would rather see this country's economy run into the ground if it means keeping a few carbons out of the air. Especially when what we do means fuck-all in the grand scheme of things given the uninhibited pollution coming from countries like China and India. The only thing we're doing is keeping this country's recovery down.

There is no proof whatsoever that fracking is hazardous to the environment. The only thing you people have to lean on is a fabricated piece of propaganda. With no proof after years/decades of fracking I'm willing to risk it if it means putting people back to work.

You keep claiming that you're "moderate" and "lean right" yet everything you post reeks of far-left insanity. If the shoe fits.

Learn to punctuate, too. You come off even stupider when....you....type...li ke....this.

I seem far left to you since you lean to the right of the Nazis.....everything I said in my post was moderate and true....I never said not to drill or frack or whatever, all I said was that the environmental lobby serves a good purpose in our country....and contrary to what you might think, they don't always win in court to stop business projects.....you and others just seize on their victories..they often lose a lot in court.....but as you said, I guess us turning into another India , china, or Russia doesn't bother you as long as every one is working right??!!!!