Who wins? Dorian '96 German GP or Ronnie '00 English GP?

[OTHstrong]

As the years pass you start to realize that Yates's dryness will never occur again, no one even comes close to his grainy, granite dryness

[GroinkTropin]

As the years pass you start to realize that Yates's dryness will never occur again, no one even comes close to his grainy, granite dryness

Anyone know why?

I suspect he just had some crazy genes for being dry, but there could be other factors. Maybe he MEGA DOSED to a level no one dares go to? Like 1gram masteron ED or something? GH15 has never spoken of Dorian, never leant his opinion. Wonder why...

[Necrosis]

While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.

On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.


Ronnie doesn't touch Dorian in conditioning , I hope this helps.

im sorry appealing to authority and opinion hold little water here, the pictures are obviously a better method of deducing truth. Bias and context alter human perception so much not to mention that human memory is all but useless in these types of debates. There is quotes on both sides, there are "experts" who say phil heath was the best ever, the only way to settle this subjective argument is use the most objective piece of evidence possible, if what people claim does not match the pictures, videos then we can conclude that there opinion is bunk. In a court of law a man could say he was ten feet wide and had blond hair, if a picture shows otherwise, what do you think the logically conclusion is?

how do you discern condition visually? what criteria are you using and why? how did you arrive at that conclusion?

[Grape Ape]

Anyone know why?

 GH15 has never spoken of Dorian, never leant his opinion. Wonder why...

I think he has.  In fact, I think he considers him top 3 of all time.

[JBGRAY]

Personally, Yates.  In modern bodybuilding judging, Coleman sweeps it.

[MB]

Anyone know why?

I suspect he just had some crazy genes for being dry, but there could be other factors. Maybe he MEGA DOSED to a level no one dares go to? Like 1gram masteron ED or something? GH15 has never spoken of Dorian, never leant his opinion. Wonder why...

It's genetics, naturally thin skin.  Dorian has nearly perfect bodybuilding genetics if you consider everything; good proportions, large calves, thin skin, low lats, mesomorph body type, great drug response. 

[yates fan]

dorian was also one of the most intelligent bodybuilders he thought out each process.

[OTHstrong]

dorian was also one of the most intelligent bodybuilders he thought out each process.

True, with his unflinching mentality and thinking process I think he would've done what takes to win in any era period

[NarcissisticDeity]

im sorry appealing to authority and opinion hold little water here, the pictures are obviously a better method of deducing truth. Bias and context alter human perception so much not to mention that human memory is all but useless in these types of debates. There is quotes on both sides, there are "experts" who say phil heath was the best ever, the only way to settle this subjective argument is use the most objective piece of evidence possible, if what people claim does not match the pictures, videos then we can conclude that there opinion is bunk. In a court of law a man could say he was ten feet wide and had blond hair, if a picture shows otherwise, what do you think the logically conclusion is?

how do you discern condition visually? what criteria are you using and why? how did you arrive at that conclusion?

Appealing to authority and opinion holds little water here except your opinion?   a bit hypocritical?

Pictures are good but there are to many variables to ' deducing the truth ' pictures pale in comparison to actually being live and in person at a show. Pictures vary in quality , compression , resolution , and the source where they originally came from. couple that with the fact that not everyone looks the same in pictures as they do in person an attribute that has been said of Dorian and his conditioning repeatedly , it's the reason shows are judged live and not on photos

And as far as experts saying Phil Heath was the best , I'm using these quotes to only show Dorian had the advantage in conditioning not some hypothetical contest of Olympia champions. And it's not just one person who said Dorian had the advantage in conditioning , He's said so in direct reference to a hypothetical meeting of the two. And I could post countless quotes in reference to Dorian's legendary conditioning  

Why his opinion is correct and unbiased , one because he has eons of experience in the sport of bodybuilding and has been both of the guys in question live and in the flesh , through out their entire careers on-stage and off-stage at their best and their worse , this beats looking at pictures and you mentioned court , in a court of law he would be called as an expert witness if anyone.

Two he's unbiased because he said although he felt Ronnie was the best physique he's seen , Dorian still had better conditioning than him and that's even at Ronnie's best. ( although he had cause to rethink that position about Ronnie being the best physique )

how do you discern condition visually? what criteria are you using and why? how did you arrive at that conclusion?

Again this is an experts opinion on who is better conditioned not mine , I just happen to agree with it , and the obvious who is better conditioned is who is holding the least amount of water and who is the hardest , qualities which can only truly ascertained live and in the flesh , which is why I take this on opinion of an unbiased expert rather than from crappy Youtube videos or 2D photos, the layperson can see details , and dryness and striations , etc on photos and video but that doesn't tell the whole story , again you have to factor in not everyone looks the same in photos as they do in person , some look better and in Yates' case , some look worse , Bob Chick , Kevin Horton , Peter McGough and Dorian himself , as well as others have touched on this very subject

There are enough quotes on the subject of Dorian's legendary conditioning to safely say he has an advantage in this department over Ronnie and most others , a lot of people base conditioning on striations which is only part of the equation  and mostly genetic ( although one needs to be greatly conditioned in order to see them , but amount and placement are largely genetic ) this is where Dorian's advantage lied over his competition

Density - Muscle hardness, which is also related to muscu-lar definition. A bodybuilder can be well-defined and still have excess fat within each major muscle complex. But when he has muscle density, even this intramuscular fat has been eliminated. A combination of muscle mass and muscle density is highly prized among all competitive bodybuilders.

Now couple this with Dorian's dryness ( thin skin ) and his fullness ( muscular bulk ) it's this combo that is rarely accomplished and which is why many feel when he competed to be the best era in bodybuilding and he was on the fore-front of that.

I always said for the sake of argument that Ronnie might have matched this type of conditioning at his very best in 1998 and in 2001 at his lightest ( 249lbs and 247lbs respectively ) but Dorian could do it at much higher bodyweights , like in 1993 at 257lbs and in those black & white photos at 270lbs , Ronnie got progressively softer and carried more water the higher his bodyweight went , evidenced  from 98-99 and from 99-00


This picture illustrates exactly why Dorian stands alone in size , density and dryness.

[NarcissisticDeity]

True, with his unflinching mentality and thinking process I think he would've done what takes to win in any era period

He would measure his food to the gram , he stated he would start training for the next years Olympia the next day after he won this years , he had everything mapped out to the slightest detail and never deviated from his routine

Dorian once said Flex was lamenting on how he wished he could look like he did the previous year and Dorian said ' what was your training like last year ' and his response was ' I don't remember ' this is part if the reason Dorian dominated and Flex was hit-or-miss 

[NeoSeminole]

im sorry appealing to authority and opinion hold little water here, the pictures are obviously a better method of deducing truth. Bias and context alter human perception so much not to mention that human memory is all but useless in these types of debates. There is quotes on both sides, there are "experts" who say phil heath was the best ever, the only way to settle this subjective argument is use the most objective piece of evidence possible, if what people claim does not match the pictures, videos then we can conclude that there opinion is bunk. In a court of law a man could say he was ten feet wide and had blond hair, if a picture shows otherwise, what do you think the logically conclusion is?

how do you discern condition visually? what criteria are you using and why? how did you arrive at that conclusion?

as Emeril Lagasse would say, "BAM!" Too bad ND will come up with some roundabout reply that avoids providing any objective evidence. This is how you can tell when he knows he's fighting a losing battle

"umm, so-and-so said this. Therefore, I'm right"

[yates fan]

anyone that ever displayed conditioning equal to yates did so at a lighter bodyweight and never did it as consistently as yates.

[The Ugly]

Aren't we tired of this shit yet?

[yates fan]

NOPE!

[The Ugly]

Dorian wins front lat spread. Ronnie kills him in everything else.

And I'm a Yates fan.

[_bruce_]

Nobody wins who uses drugs 

Ron vs Dorian is an epic white versus black man battle - one can't beat the other.
Kohlman has way better muscle shape but Dorian is as solid as a granite block and looks like the most imposing bouncer on earth.
For me Dorian looks cooler and colman better.

[OTHstrong]

as Emeril Lagasse would say, "BAM!" Too bad ND will come up with some roundabout reply that avoids providing any objective evidence. This is how you can tell when he knows he's fighting a losing battle

"umm, so-and-so said this. Therefore, I'm right"

Actually Nd and I debate a lot especiacially about religion but in his recent posts in this thread he is spot on, not only spot on but Necrosis's theory has 1 flaw, of the thousands of people that have watched Dorian live comment that the tecture of his skin (grainyness) is shocking in live mode as opposed to pictures, so even if everything is identical between Ronnie and Dorian in picture let's say, Dorians live version would be a clear advantage no matter how you slice it, oh and how often did we here that Dorians looked dramatically different in live mode?, millions of times

[NeoSeminole]

Actually Nd and I debate a lot especiacially about religion but in his recent posts in this thread he is spot on, not only spot on but Necrosis's theory has 1 flaw, of the thousands of people that have watched Dorian live comment that the tecture of his skin (grainyness) is shocking in live mode as opposed to pictures, so even if everything is identical between Ronnie and Dorian in picture let's say, Dorians live version would be a clear advantage no matter how you slice it, oh and how often did we here that Dorians looked dramatically different in live mode?, millions of times

the same argument can be made for Ronnie. Several experts who have seen him in person say he looks 20-30 lbs heavier than his actual bodyweight due to his bone structure and muscle bellies.

Peter McGough - Flex, August 2005

"Personally, the best physique I ever saw onstage was Ronnie's at the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic. He was cut, full, trim in the waist and a monster (proving that when you're supersharp, you look superbig) at 244 pounds. Ronnie sporting that look would, in my opinion, be unbeatable."

Team Flex – Flexonline.com, November 2004

“For whatever faults he may possess, Ronnie Coleman is quite possibly the most impressive physical specimen walking the earth today. Pictures do not do him justice. When he stands relaxed muscle literally hangs from his frame, as if his skin can no longer support the pendulous masses of flesh he has forged with untold tons of iron and steel. It’s difficult to imagine anyone surpassing Big Ron’s level of mass in this, or any, lifetime.”

John Hansen, 2x Mr. Natural Universe and Mr. Natural Olympia

"With his incredible thickness and muscle shape, Coleman doesn't need to weigh over 260 pounds on stage to look big. When he won the Arnold Classic last year, Ronnie only weighed 247 pounds but he looked like he weighed 20 pounds heavier."

Dexter Jackson – Getbig Interview 2004

“I am not the gossip type. I let them do all the talking, and I let my physique back my talking up. I know Craig Titus was saying something like he knows that Lee Priest is 200 pounds, I’m 220 pounds, and he is 250 pounds, and all this shit, but what Craig does not realize is that his 250 pounds is not like Ronnie Coleman’s 250 pounds. See what I am saying? I think I have proven to everyone that size doesn't matter. You don't look at Craig and say 'whoa, that’s a big dude’. You might say that about Ronnie or Jay at 250, but not Craig.”


I also have quotes saying Ronnie at the 01 ASC was dry and shredded.

Jim Stoppani - Flex, July 2005

"Has anyone ever displayed a more muscular, more shredded, higher-quality physique than a 247-pound Ronnie Coleman at the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic?"

Shawn Perine Ironage Dec 11, 2004

"As much as I love Haney and my IA champs, I think Ronnie circa '98 or at the 2001 Arnold is pretty much untouchable. Except by Dorian Yates 6 weeks out from the '93 O as photographed by our own KMH. Both men, on those specific occasions carried so much dry muscle mass in good proportion and with good lines that it's almost unfair to compare them to others. "

Sean Toh – http://creditplushealth.org/sport%20celebrities/Ronnie%20Coleman.htm

“At the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic, Ronnie won the show and his performance at the time was hailed by many to be his best ever showing. He was 245 pounds at the contest, in extremely tight form, and dense as stone.”


so if you want to ignore the overwhelming visual evidence in favor of Ronnie, then we can go tit for tat over quotes

[NeoSeminole]

Remember folks, visual evidence doesn't matter because pics/video lie. We must rely on testimony from people who saw them live

let's hear what they have to say, shall we?

Joe Weider - IFBB Co-Founder

"Many experts, including reigning Mr.Olympia, Jay Cutler, believe that at his best Ronnie has the greatest physique of all-time. When looking at pictures of Ronnie from the 1998 Mr.Olympia, I find it hard to argue with that."

Team Flex - http://www.flexonline.com/training/49

"We've said before that the 245 pounds or so physique with which [Ronnie Coleman] won the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic is the best ever - unbeatable."

John Plummer – Flexonline 2003 Mr. Olympia Contest Review

"The long-awaited triple showdown between Coleman, Jay Cutler and Günter Schlierkamp failed to materialize as the defending champion destroyed all-comers with possibly the most awesome physique ever seen on a bodybuilding stage."

http://www.flexonline.com.au/216.html

Hany Rambod - MD, February 2004

"[Ronnie] was so far ahead of everyone else, I heard a rumor that his DNA actually tested positive for being an alien."

Lonnie Teper - MD, December 2005

"I've always said that it's too hard to compare athletes of different eras (then he names a few Mr. Olympias including Dorian). Still, it's hard to imagine that anybody who's ever stepped on a bodybuilding stage could have beaten Coleman. So I reserve the right to change my mind on this one. No offense to the rest of the champs - you were/are all truly amazing physique athletes - but Coleman has really taken it to the next level, as all magnificent conquerors do."

Peter McGough - Flex, April 2002

"[Ronnie Coleman] bounced back to win the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic with a physique that may have been the best ever seen"

Tony Doherty - Heavy Muscle Radio (03-16-09)

"Ronnie is the best ever. No one even comes close."

Tony Doherty - http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=270388.msg3803035#msg3803035

"Absolutely no question. The best ever, I have seen them and worked with them all. Seeing Ronnie in 2003 was like looking into the future!"

Raymond Cassar - Muscletime Editor and Photographer

"There is no one alive that can beat Ronnie Coleman when he is at his best - No One! (and his best for me was when he won the 2001 Arnold Classic)"

http://www.muscletime.com/news/contest-results/2007-mr-olympia-analysis

Greg Meritt – http://www.metroflexgymtraining.com/testimonials.html

"From the greatest bodybuilder of all-time, Ronnie Coleman, to gregarious owner Brian Dobson to the kid who joined yesterday, everyone is trying to push themselves further than ever before, and it’s the energy of this shared commitment that makes Metroflex great."

Chris Lund (Paraphrased by Milos Sarcev) - European Flex, April 2004

"Chris Lund who I consider to be a great expert in our sport of bodybuilding, told me that Ronnie is simply the best bodybuilder he has ever seen, or photographed, and he has seen everybody, during the last 35 years."

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=237938.0

Hollis Liebman - Former Fitness Editor and IFBB Official

"The era of the big man would commence with Lee Haney (1984-1991), whose formidable torso would dominate the lineup for 8 straight years and was then elevated by Dorian Yates (1992-1997), whose back and overall conditioning upped the ante yet again until an alien named Ronnie Coleman (1998-2005), in all likelihood the greatest bodybuilder of all time, would redefine the sport bringing a near 300 pound contest ready physique to the stage."

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=238675.0

Flex Wheeler - MD, February 2004

"I'll go on record as saying Ronnie is truly the biggest, hardest, most shredded Mr. Olympia in history. No disrespect to anybody at all, but I'd to identify Ronnie Coleman as the greatest Mr. Olympia of all time."

Paul Dillet - MD, February 2004

"Understand that if Ronnie walked away tomorrow, I do not think anyone can measure up to the standards he has set. Just like Sergio Oliva, an awesome bodybuilder way ahead of his time, and like Flex Wheeler, who had an absolutely perfect, beautiful physique. No one will match Serigo or Flex and now Ronnie."

Mike Matarazzo – Flex, January 1999

"I think this creature from another planet, Ronnie Coleman, is going to be number one for a while. I think that, in the shape he was in, he would have beaten Dorian Yates. Ronnie has every single attribute it takes to be the greatest bodybuilder who ever lived."

Jean Pierre Fux - Personal Website

"The current Mr. Olympia (Ronnie Coleman). In top shape, probably the best physique that ever stepped on stage."

[NarcissisticDeity]

as Emeril Lagasse would say, "BAM!" Too bad ND will come up with some roundabout reply that avoids providing any objective evidence. This is how you can tell when he knows he's fighting a losing battle

"umm, so-and-so said this. Therefore, I'm right"

Where exactly is your objective evidence? compressed Youtube videos and 2D pictures? and your own personal brand of ignorance? you don't know what even constitutes great conditioning , you posted a picture of Dorian once from 1995 and claimed he was soft & doughy LMFAO when this ( along with 1993 ) are considered his prime showings overall in terms of mass and conditioning?

You don't have the first clue on what you're talking about , nothing's changed you thought balance & proportion were one thing lol more evidence of how clueless you are. You absolutely positively can NOT say who is better conditioned when you don't have a clue what it is and you weren't live and in person to see these people at their best and worst

What do you know internet-fanboy? I don't have the audacity to say who is better conditioned because I never seen Dorian 1993 Mr Olympia , Dorian 1995 Mr Olympia , Ronnie 1998 Mr Olympia , Ronnie 2001 ASC , and neither did you and then say the people who did are dead wrong and you are right , this alone proves that you're ignorant and happy being so , you're stupid Neo , willfully stupid and that's why I don't entertain your point of view , just correct it.

Still stinging from the Yates 91 Olympia comments? looking for some half-ass vicarious retribution? 

[NarcissisticDeity]

the same argument can be made for Ronnie. Several experts who have seen him in person say he looks 20-30 lbs heavier than his actual bodyweight due to his bone structure and muscle bellies.




so if you want to ignore the overwhelming visual evidence in favor of Ronnie, then we can go tit for tat over quotes

What does this have to do with Ronnie being in better condition than Dorian? nothing at all

[NeoSeminole]

Where exactly is your objective evidence? compressed Youtube videos and 2D pictures? and your own personal brand of ignorance? you don't know what even constitutes great conditioning , you posted a picture of Dorian once from 1995 and claimed he was soft & doughy LMFAO when this ( along with 1993 ) are considered his prime showings overall in terms of mass and conditioning?

you really ought to learn how to tell when someone is using sarcasm, doll. You called Ronnie pregnant on numerous occasions. I was simply returning the favor by mirroring your outlandish claims with equally outlandish comments about Dorian

[NarcissisticDeity]

Remember folks, visual evidence doesn't matter because pics/video lie. We must rely on testimony from people who saw them live

let's hear what they have to say, shall we?

More fluff , this has NOTHING to do with who is better conditioned , you proved that Ronnie being the greatest ever is a very popular opinion , congrats fanboy where are the quotes that say Dorian Yates was never harder or drier than Ronnie Coleman? 

[NeoSeminole]

What does this have to do with Ronnie being in better condition than Dorian? nothing at all

re-read my post. If you want to ignore visual evidence in favor of eye witness testimony when it favors Dorian, then the same courtesy must be applied to Ronnie

[NarcissisticDeity]

you really ought to learn how to tell when someone is using sarcasm, doll. You called Ronnie pregnant on numerous occasions. I was simply returning the favor by mirroring your outlandish claims with equally outlandish comments about Dorian

what does Ronnie looking pregnant have to do with Dorian's superior conditioning?  I posted pics of Ronnie looking pregnant , you posted a pic of Dorian at his best saying he was soft , lame