Who wins? Dorian '96 German GP or Ronnie '00 English GP?

[NarcissisticDeity]

re-read my post. If you want to ignore visual evidence in favor of eye witness testimony when it favors Dorian, then the same courtesy must be applied to Ronnie

I'm sticking to the topic , try it.

[NeoSeminole]

what does Ronnie looking pregnant have to do with Dorian's superior conditioning? I posted pics of Ronnie looking pregnant, you posted a pic of Dorian at his best saying he was soft

poor ND, lol. You called Ronnie "pregnant" (obviously not true). So I called Dorian "soft and doughy" (equally not true)

I don't know how to make this any simpler for you to understand

[NeoSeminole]

I'm sticking to the topic , try it.

same here. Perhaps you may want to read the post I was responding to (hint: it wasn't you )

[NarcissisticDeity]

poor ND, lol. You called Ronnie "pregnant" (obviously not true). So I called Dorian "soft and doughy" (equally not true)

I don't know how to make this any simpler for you to understand

Neo yeah obviously 

[NeoSeminole]

Neo yeah obviously  

let me get this straight... do you actually believe a man can give birth to a baby? Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you

I was aware you're mentally challenged but I didn't realize it was this bad

[NarcissisticDeity]

same here. Perhaps you may want to read the post I was responding to (hint: it wasn't you )

You can't respond to me , you'd have to have to know what you're talking about and still after all this time you still don't 

[NarcissisticDeity]

let me get this straight... do you actually believe a man can give birth to a baby? Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you

I was aware you're mentally challenged but I didn't realize it was this bad

semantics , never seen those before ( pssssttttt that was internet sarcasm  )


anyway

how about those quotes that say Dorian Yates was never harder or drier than Ronnie Coleman? working on those? 

[NarcissisticDeity]

While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.

On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.


 

[NeoSeminole]

semantics , never seen those before ( pssssttttt that was internet sarcasm )

busted!

how about those quotes that say Dorian Yates was never harder or drier than Ronnie Coleman? working on those?

what is your point? Never harder or drier means just that. It doesn't mean that Ronnie wasn't equally as hard or dry

I will dumb things down to a level you can understand: the number 2 is not greater or bigger than 2. They are the same value

[NeoSeminole]

While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.

On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.

if you want to quote people's opinions, then I refer you to the quotes above saying Ronnie is better than Dorian

[Nirvana]

let's use NDs logic that the judges are perfect.


Ronnie > Dorian due to more olympia wins.  fact, the judges said so.

Nd will now reply that ronnie never beat dorian onstage.  to which I reply "ronnie hadn't peaked yet."

to prove this we look at ronnies placing improvement from 97 to 98.  ronnie got better, the judges said so. fact. 




now we will back this theory up with hard proof.  the pictures are irrefutable because both competitors are at their widely believed best condition.  Nd will say the picture isn't scaled correctly by doing so admitting that ronnie is better.  but even without the picture we have used nd's logic to finally prove that ronnie > dorian.

[NarcissisticDeity]

busted!

what is your point? Never harder or drier means just that. It doesn't mean that Ronnie wasn't equally as hard or dry

I will dumb things down to a level you can understand: the number 2 is not greater or bigger than 2. They are the same value

busted!

weak as usual



lol I would settle for a quote that claimed that but as usual when push comes to shove YOU have nothing

and many times I've said Ronnie may have equaled that in 98/01 for the sake of argument , but Dorian could maintain that at much higher bodyweights , so NEVER means never from an expert witness this my dimwitted friend is better than anything you can provide

[NarcissisticDeity]

if you want to quote people's opinions, then I refer you to the quotes above saying Ronnie is better than Dorian

Big difference between popular opinion on a subjective subject and conditioning which really isn't subjective , learn the difference

[Necrosis]

Appealing to authority and opinion holds little water here except your opinion?   a bit hypocritical?

Pictures are good but there are to many variables to ' deducing the truth ' pictures pale in comparison to actually being live and in person at a show. Pictures vary in quality , compression , resolution , and the source where they originally came from. couple that with the fact that not everyone looks the same in pictures as they do in person an attribute that has been said of Dorian and his conditioning repeatedly , it's the reason shows are judged live and not on photos

And as far as experts saying Phil Heath was the best , I'm using these quotes to only show Dorian had the advantage in conditioning not some hypothetical contest of Olympia champions. And it's not just one person who said Dorian had the advantage in conditioning , He's said so in direct reference to a hypothetical meeting of the two. And I could post countless quotes in reference to Dorian's legendary conditioning  

Why his opinion is correct and unbiased , one because he has eons of experience in the sport of bodybuilding and has been both of the guys in question live and in the flesh , through out their entire careers on-stage and off-stage at their best and their worse , this beats looking at pictures and you mentioned court , in a court of law he would be called as an expert witness if anyone.

Two he's unbiased because he said although he felt Ronnie was the best physique he's seen , Dorian still had better conditioning than him and that's even at Ronnie's best. ( although he had cause to rethink that position about Ronnie being the best physique )

Again this is an experts opinion on who is better conditioned not mine , I just happen to agree with it , and the obvious who is better conditioned is who is holding the least amount of water and who is the hardest , qualities which can only truly ascertained live and in the flesh , which is why I take this on opinion of an unbiased expert rather than from crappy Youtube videos or 2D photos, the layperson can see details , and dryness and striations , etc on photos and video but that doesn't tell the whole story , again you have to factor in not everyone looks the same in photos as they do in person , some look better and in Yates' case , some look worse , Bob Chick , Kevin Horton , Peter McGough and Dorian himself , as well as others have touched on this very subject

There are enough quotes on the subject of Dorian's legendary conditioning to safely say he has an advantage in this department over Ronnie and most others , a lot of people base conditioning on striations which is only part of the equation  and mostly genetic ( although one needs to be greatly conditioned in order to see them , but amount and placement are largely genetic ) this is where Dorian's advantage lied over his competition

Density - Muscle hardness, which is also related to muscu-lar definition. A bodybuilder can be well-defined and still have excess fat within each major muscle complex. But when he has muscle density, even this intramuscular fat has been eliminated. A combination of muscle mass and muscle density is highly prized among all competitive bodybuilders.

Now couple this with Dorian's dryness ( thin skin ) and his fullness ( muscular bulk ) it's this combo that is rarely accomplished and which is why many feel when he competed to be the best era in bodybuilding and he was on the fore-front of that.

I always said for the sake of argument that Ronnie might have matched this type of conditioning at his very best in 1998 and in 2001 at his lightest ( 249lbs and 247lbs respectively ) but Dorian could do it at much higher bodyweights , like in 1993 at 257lbs and in those black & white photos at 270lbs , Ronnie got progressively softer and carried more water the higher his bodyweight went , evidenced  from 98-99 and from 99-00


This picture illustrates exactly why Dorian stands alone in size , density and dryness.

i wasnt stating my opinion here i was saying that dorian and ronnie at there respective bests did not compete hence, no one has actually compared them thus memory is what these so called unbiased experts are going off, which is worse then physical evidence one can compare, since this is impossible to do accurately in your head. What is so hard to understand about that, its a fact, courts would never use your proposed evidence when much more direct evidence exists. While still not perfect it is much better.

how do some people look different in photos and others not? this argument is ridiculous, you have no way of asserting that except for opinion. what you are suggesting is that dorian has some un-named quality ronnie didnt have, or other people may not have that made appear different on film? ridiculous. He may have just been super impressive in person hence the comments. Without saying what this quality is, its attributes and how to detect it you have once again performed logical harikari, its a ridiculous argument i wont waste further time on.

my argument is simply use the best evidence to decide this purely hypothetical argument, pictures and video. Why are they better? because they are objective and i can arrive at the same conclusions as anyone else using them if they are good enough and we have objective criteria. It doesnt take a genius to see dorians back was more conditioned, they pictures show this. Ronnies arms likewise are clearly more defined in numerous poses, side chest, back double bi, front bi, most muscular, with the side tri going to dorian.

[NeoSeminole]

weak as usual

admit it: you kept using a strawman tactic to claim I was being serious (which I wasn't) until I busted you by pointing out the absurdness of both our comments and that I parodying you. You were adamant that Ronnie was pregnant until I asked if you really believed that. Your only response after that was to joke about it and shift topic to something irrelevant

[NeoSeminole]

Big difference between popular opinion on a subjective subject and conditioning which really isn't subjective , learn the difference

hydrostatic weighing = objective

guessing a person's body fat and water = subjective

learn the difference

[NarcissisticDeity]

let's use NDs logic that the judges are perfect.


Ronnie > Dorian due to more olympia wins.  fact, the judges said so.

Nd will now reply that ronnie never beat dorian onstage.  to which I reply "ronnie hadn't peaked yet."

to prove this we look at ronnies placing improvement from 97 to 98.  ronnie got better, the judges said so. fact. 




now we will back this theory up with hard proof.  the pictures are irrefutable because both competitors are at their widely believed best condition.  Nd will say the picture isn't scaled correctly by doing so admitting that ronnie is better.  but even without the picture we have used nd's logic to finally prove that ronnie > dorian.

let's use NDs logic that the judges are perfect.


Ronnie > Dorian due to more olympia wins.  fact, the judges said so.

Nd will now reply that ronnie never beat dorian onstage.  to which I reply "ronnie hadn't peaked yet."

to prove this we look at ronnies placing improvement from 97 to 98.  ronnie got better, the judges said so. fact. 

I never said the judges were perfect , fallacy #1

Ronnie got better compared to who? Dorian? or the competition he faced in 98? where did he improve the most? conditioning? yup , sorry sport that's Dorian's forte , he would own Ronnie there too , did Ronnie get more size from 97-98? NO in fact he was lighter , he was 255 in 97 and 249 in 98 , albeit harder and drier

Dorian at his absolute worse 97 beat Ronnie close to his best soundly in 97 1st compared to 6th , Dorian at his best would easily beat Ronnie 98

Dorian absolutely DOMINATED Flex in 1993 at his near-career best showing , Ronnie just barely beat a sub-par Flex in one of the closest Mr Olympia contests in history to this day , Dorian would beat him again , Ronnie had a lot of shots a Dorian and failed all the time , granted he wasn't at his best but he failed to make any inroads with Dorion , Statistically Dorian would beat him , the odds favor Yates

now we will back this theory up with hard proof.  the pictures are irrefutable because both competitors are at their widely believed best condition.  Nd will say the picture isn't scaled correctly by doing so admitting that ronnie is better.  but even without the picture we have used nd's logic to finally prove that ronnie > dorian.

LMFAO irrefutable , you can't even get their best conditions down , 2003 is in NO WAY shape of form Ronnie's best , 1998/2001 were

You're damn right those pics aren't scaled right and that's not an admission of Ronnie being better , it's an admission of the obvious , it's not an accurate representation of the reality of the situation and it was created by a Ronnie guy

Ronnie at his best may come close to Dorian in terms of conditioning but Ronnie 2003 gets obliterated by Dorian 1993 in terms of density & dryness it's not close or any contest , now lets couple that with the fact Ronnie's balance & proportion is in the red in 2003 and it's obvious that Ronnie 2003 isn't his best by a long shot , a fact he's said multiple times and why he says 1998 is his best

1998 Ronnie vs Dorian 1993

Dorian carries more muscular bulk , is harder and drier and has better balance & proportion and has less weaknesses , Ronnie 98 could barely beat a career best Flex and Dorian 93 dominated him NO CONTEST Dorian wins

Ronnie 2003 vs Dorian 1995 precontest at 283lbs

Ronnie had no advantage in muscular bulk , has no advantage in conditioning or balance , Dorian wins again , you pick a year and I can show you how and why Dorian wins

Dorian just has to many strengths , like Heath now at his best he's just too complete and really isn't missing anything


the black & white photo is Dorian precontest 1995 Kevin Horton said this was the best he's ever seen Dorian he's 283lbs , even better than the famous B&W pics from 1993

[NeoSeminole]

Dorian at his absolute worse 97 beat Ronnie close to his best soundly in 97 1st compared to 6th , Dorian at his best would easily beat Ronnie 98

sorry brah, but Joe Weider disagrees with you

Joe Weider - IFBB Co-Founder

"Many experts, including reigning Mr.Olympia, Jay Cutler, believe that at his best Ronnie has the greatest physique of all-time. When looking at pictures of Ronnie from the 1998 Mr.Olympia, I find it hard to argue with that."

note that he also says "many experts" share the same belief

[NarcissisticDeity]

admit it: you kept using a strawman tactic to claim I was being serious (which I wasn't) until I busted you by pointing out the absurdness of both our comments and that I parodying you. You were adamant that Ronnie was pregnant until I asked if you really believed that. Your only response after that was to joke about it and shift topic to something irrelevant

This is why you'll never be taken seriously , just mocked and ridiculed. 

[NeoSeminole]

This is why you'll never be taken seriously , just mocked and ridiculed.

translation: I have no intelligent reply

[NarcissisticDeity]

sorry brah, but Joe Weider disagrees with you

Joe Weider - IFBB Co-Founder

"Many experts, including reigning Mr.Olympia, Jay Cutler, believe that at his best Ronnie has the greatest physique of all-time. When looking at pictures of Ronnie from the 1998 Mr.Olympia, I find it hard to argue with that."

note that he also says "many experts" share the same belief

Ronnie Coleman disagrees with you sport , once again you fail. 

[Nirvana]

I never said the judges were perfect , fallacy #1

Ronnie got better compared to who? Dorian? or the competition he faced in 98? where did he improve the most? conditioning? yup , sorry sport that's Dorian's forte , he would own Ronnie there too , did Ronnie get more size from 97-98? NO in fact he was lighter , he was 255 in 97 and 249 in 98 , albeit harder and drier

Dorian at his absolute worse 97 beat Ronnie close to his best soundly in 97 1st compared to 6th , Dorian at his best would easily beat Ronnie 98

Dorian absolutely DOMINATED Flex in 1993 at his near-career best showing , Ronnie just barely beat a sub-par Flex in one of the closest Mr Olympia contests in history to this day , Dorian would beat him again , Ronnie had a lot of shots a Dorian and failed all the time , granted he wasn't at his best but he failed to make any inroads with Dorion , Statistically Dorian would beat him , the odds favor Yates

LMFAO irrefutable , you can't even get their best conditions down , 2003 is in NO WAY shape of form Ronnie's best , 1998/2001 were

You're damn right those pics aren't scaled right and that's not an admission of Ronnie being better , it's an admission of the obvious , it's not an accurate representation of the reality of the situation and it was created by a Ronnie guy

Ronnie at his best may come close to Dorian in terms of conditioning but Ronnie 2003 gets obliterated by Dorian 1993 in terms of density & dryness it's not close or any contest , now lets couple that with the fact Ronnie's balance & proportion is in the red in 2003 and it's obvious that Ronnie 2003 isn't his best by a long shot , a fact he's said multiple times and why he says 1998 is his best

1998 Ronnie vs Dorian 1993

Dorian carries more muscular bulk , is harder and drier and has better balance & proportion and has less weaknesses , Ronnie 98 could barely beat a career best Flex and Dorian 93 dominated him NO CONTEST Dorian wins

Ronnie 2003 vs Dorian 1995 precontest at 283lbs

Ronnie had no advantage in muscular bulk , has no advantage in conditioning or balance , Dorian wins again , you pick a year and I can show you how and why Dorian wins

Dorian just has to many strengths , like Heath now at his best he's just too complete and really isn't missing anything


the black & white photo is Dorian precontest 1995 Kevin Horton said this was the best he's ever seen Dorian he's 283lbs , even better than the famous B&W pics from 1993

owned. cue the semantics game

Oh boy lol , it's an opinion that 12 individuals are come to the exact same conclusion on. their opinion is knowledge , informed and unbiased , everything yours is NOT which is exactly why you come to some of your wacky conclusion , ignorance. You don't even know what it takes to judge at the Olympia level and how judges are chosen and you don't care , you've made up your mind and nothing is gonna change it

Their opinions are FACTS and the fact is their opinion made Heath Mr Olympia and Jay second and Wolf not even close , the general bodybuilding population do NOT judge contest so their opinion on the subject means fuck-all in the scheme of things and the general bodybuilding population are all like you , clueless on how the game is even played , yet you think your opinion matters , your opinion is just as you projected on the judges , bias , ignorant and flawed.

go learn how contests are judged and then you'll have a clue , if not keep bitching on the internets it's working out great for thus far.

[Nirvana]

Ronnie Coleman disagrees with you sport , once again you fail. 

ronnie coleman does not judge shows and therefor knows fuckall about how contests are judged

[NeoSeminole]

Ronnie Coleman disagrees with you sport , once again you fail

I don't care what Ronnie says on the topic of who's better. He could say King Kamali is a better bodybuilder and I still wouldn't listen to him. Mind you, he also believes he won the 06 Mr. Olympia which he lost. Do you believe Ronnie to be a credible authority on judging contests?

if you answer "yes," then you are a dumbass. If you answer "no," then you are a dumbass for being a hypocrite who holds others accountable but not himself over the same quote

[NarcissisticDeity]

translation: I have no intelligent reply

You wouldn't be able to recognize one if your life depended on it , you'd have to be knowledgeable which you're not , you've proven time and time again that you can't even grasp the basics of the sport and of arguing

You filled pumpster shoes nicely as the resident ignorant troll , congrats.