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Author Topic: Dorian Yates - 1995 Mr. Olympia - High Quality Scans!!!  (Read 26890 times)
Wiggs
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« Reply #575 on: January 28, 2012, 08:58:48 AM »

If you wanna say who is better just based on Olympia wins and career wins , you'll get no argument from me that Ronnie is better according to this

If you wanna argue who is better at their best showing ever , Dorian IN MY OPINION wins , Dorian precontest 1993 will beat ANY version of Ronnie

Spare me the contests are won on-stage , we are strictly talking about their best showings and this is Dorian's best for a host of reasons, it doesn't matter if he walked on-stage like this.



Well then this debate is over when youre stretching to photoshoots...lol
Haney is the best ever...undefeated in Mr. Os and he beat Dorian...Ronnie happens to have the best physique in a show being 2001 Arnold or 98 Olympia....Good Day.
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I dont care what Ronnie says bc hes not a credible


« Reply #576 on: January 28, 2012, 08:59:13 AM »

You're never going to get 100% people to agree to things like this.  Not everyone believes Jordan was the best. Doesnt change that when you look at his body of work he is...Don't use Ronnie's words against him cause he said that during his 2nd Mr. O win...Today Ronnie regards himself as the greatest of all time so quit playing games...You didnt prove anything with Mcgoo...We already addressed ON STAGE IS WHAT COUNTS....LOL...stop.... hahahhahah

Not everyone shares the belief Ronnie is the best or would beat Dorian , just because more do , doesn't mean it's right. it's that simple. popular opinion is not fact.

No Ronnie said this later in his career as well it's not just at the beginning of it and he's said it multiple times , again it doesn't mean it's right but people hate it because they just can't imagine Ronnie would admit this , maybe he means it

Again if we're judging on career wins and Olympia , Ronnie is the greatest of all-time , you'll get no argument from me , doesn't have anything to do with Dorian at his best

on-stage matters only? NOPE when they looked their best matters and precontest 1993 Dorian is at his best for a multitude of reasons.

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« Reply #577 on: January 28, 2012, 09:03:21 AM »

1.- I never claimed it adds them, so thats that
2.- Genetically has more striations? Even if this were true, do you even understand what striations are? Do you know what muscle fibers are? Id guess you do know how this also relates to mass, not ONLY conditioning.
3.- Generally speaking a fat person will have less definition, separation, detailining, call it whatever, than a leaner person, this holds true also at lower levels of body fat.  Because, whether you want to admit it or not, both Dorians and Coolmans muscles were protein muscles (did you know there are different types of muscle?) made up of the same type of muscle fibers.

By the way, this is turniing into a very interesting discussion about why do people talk about harder, denser muscle and softer muscle (SEO's aside).  Bbers seem to be keen on this idea of muscle fibers being fundamentally different...
Quote
Less fat and water = more "detailing", striations, separation
The point here is, Dorian, in peak condition, had NO fat, NO water, and his muscle had a very smooth, dense, polished marble look. Yes, I understand what youre getting at, but for some reason you are trying to insinuate that if a person has more striations, deeper striations and deeper separation between muscles genetically (yes, genetically, not everyone has the same appearance to their muscles, some are more separated at higher bodyfat than others) that must mean they have lower bodyfat, which is not the case. Lower bodyfat will emphasize these things, but you cannot compare striations between 2 different individuals to compare conditioning, it doesnt work. It would it they both had the same striations, same muscle separation, but people dont. Genetically people are different. Their muscles look different, have different thickness, different densities of fibers.
Coleman, weather at higher bodyfat or not, always had more visible striations and deeper separation (giving him the appearance of being better conditioning than he really was, like you said better conditioning will enhance the appearance of those "details", since Coleman genetically has more and deeper striations and muscle separation, it give the illusion of being in better shape due to EXACTLY what you are arguing.)
That in an of itself should be enough to show you that you cannot judge conditioning based on detail.
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« Reply #578 on: January 28, 2012, 09:04:52 AM »

sorry kiddo but you're wrong. Popular opinion would be an online poll among people who have never seen them in person

the consensus among IFBB pros who know the criteria better and have seen both men at their primes is that Ronnie > Dorian

I know youre just trolling, but you cant believe that peoples opinions prove shit do you?
Cause people's opinions are going to be heavily slanted towards whoever is the most fresh in their memory and things they hear from others.
Thats why jury's are not allowed to speak or read anything about the person they are judging, for exactly that reason.
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Wiggs
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« Reply #579 on: January 28, 2012, 09:06:22 AM »

Not everyone shares the belief Ronnie is the best or would beat Dorian , just because more do , doesn't mean it's right. it's that simple. popular opinion is not fact.

No Ronnie said this later in his career as well it's not just at the beginning of it and he's said it multiple times , again it doesn't mean it's right but people hate it because they just can't imagine Ronnie would admit this , maybe he means it

Again if we're judging on career wins and Olympia , Ronnie is the greatest of all-time , you'll get no argument from me , doesn't have anything to do with Dorian at his best

on-stage matters only? NOPE when they looked their best matters and precontest 1993 Dorian is at his best for a multitude of reasons.



Your arguments are the sign of a person who has lost...Sorry brah, why don't show me some quotes of people in the industry that said Dorian was the best ever...Not anyone else, but DORIAN....See the way things work with people that matter (peers and people in the industry, might I add Chick himself said, "it's Ronnie and it aint even close")  it MAJORITY RULES....Let me guess.........Just cause majority rules doesn't mean it's right.....looooooooooooo oooooooooollllllllllzzzz zzzzzzzzzz.....You're done.
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I dont care what Ronnie says bc hes not a credible


« Reply #580 on: January 28, 2012, 09:06:33 AM »

sorry kiddo but you're wrong. Popular opinion would be an online poll among people who have never seen them in person

the consensus among IFBB pros who know the criteria better and have seen both men at their primes is that Ronnie > Dorian


You just shifted popular opinion of fans to the popular opinion of professionals , you can NOT escape this fact.

I already explained to you a lot of the guys you posted as people knowing the criteria DON'T , Shawn Ray said Ronnie should not have won in 1998 , proof he doesn't know the criteria , Flex Wheeler? said he won in 1999 and Ronnie was first after prejudging 2007 , proof he doesn't know the criteria , wanna keep going? your

Again there is no consensus among pros , I just posted quotes from professionals saying just the opposite , what you just did is say , I have more pros that agree so therefore he's better which is popular opinion

How many of those people said Ronnie at his best is better than Dorian 1993 precontest ? NONE , you purposely ignored the quotes from , McGough , Priest , Arnold , Leroy , Taylor , Richards , Samir , and Ronnie himself , all that carry the same weight as ANYONE you posted , what makes your quotes right and them wrong? NOTHING and you know it.

In the end you're clinging to popular opinion regardless of who it's from it's still an appeal to numbers

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NeoSeminole
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Ronnie > Dorian


« Reply #581 on: January 28, 2012, 09:09:55 AM »

ND, You are in the same class as Bobs now, your credibility is shot and youre just as delusional as he..Those were sad stretching rebuttals...Like Bobs, you have an answer for everything (now it's people are bitter with Dorian? lol) You keep your opinion and well live with the truth...LOL....I'm not wasting any more time on this NeoSeminole closed the book on this pathetic arguement. And now you look like a fool arguing against Weider, Ronnie and Dorians peers, and photographers, PEERS and PEOPLE IN THE SAME INDUSTRY is not POPULAR OPINION. FANS = POPULAR OPINION....It's so funny cause youre a smart guy yet blinded..hahahahahahahha haha....Keep fighting the good fight...

quoted for awesomeness. You know ND lost when the other side posts multiple quotes from bodybuilding experts, journalists, photographers, contest promoters, IFBB pros and the co-founder of the IFBB, and he responds by posting an internet popularity poll lmao
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Wiggs
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« Reply #582 on: January 28, 2012, 09:10:41 AM »

Why don't post some quotes of the millions of industry insiders and pros stating Dorian was the best ever...I'd love to see those.

Like I said, not everyone will agree that Ronnie was the best but a majority overwhelmingly will and for you to try and discount that along with 8 Mr. O wins makes you look like a fool.
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I dont care what Ronnie says bc hes not a credible


« Reply #583 on: January 28, 2012, 09:10:45 AM »

Your arguments are the sign of a person who has lost...Sorry brah, why don't show me some quotes of people in the industry that said Dorian was the best ever...Not anyone else, but DORIAN....See the way things work with people that matter (peers and people in the industry, might I add Chick himself said, "it's Ronnie and it aint even close")  it MAJORITY RULES....Let me guess.........Just cause majority rules doesn't mean it's right.....looooooooooooo oooooooooollllllllllzzzz zzzzzzzzzz.....You're done.

lol lost what? an argument of a subjective nature ? you sound like you don't know how to argue.


MAJORITY RULES? really? the minority judge contests not the majority , more fallacious arguments. A panel of just 13 judges decide who the best is not the MAJORITY , keep trying

Again , Ronnie feels Dorian is better his opinion carries more weight than ANYONE Neo posted. Among others it's not overwhelming that professionals feel Ronnie is better

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Wiggs
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« Reply #584 on: January 28, 2012, 09:12:05 AM »

lol lost what? an argument of a subjective nature ? you sound like you don't know how to argue.


MAJORITY RULES? really? the minority judge contests not the majority , more fallacious arguments. A panel of just 13 judges decide who the best is not the MAJORITY , keep trying

Again , Ronnie feels Dorian is better his opinion carries more weight than ANYONE Neo posted. Among others it's not overwhelming that professionals feel Ronnie is better



So when I post an e-mail or video of Ronnie stating he is the best ever will you concede or come up with another excuse?
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I dont care what Ronnie says bc hes not a credible


« Reply #585 on: January 28, 2012, 09:13:37 AM »

quoted for awesomeness. You know ND lost when the other side posts multiple quotes from bodybuilding experts, journalists, photographers, contest promoters, IFBB pros and the co-founder of the IFBB, and he responds by posting an internet popularity poll lmao

That's not all I posted and typical with you when faced with facts you ignore them.

McGough , Priest , Arnold , Leroy , Taylor , Richards , Samir , and Ronnie himself

You look foolish when you type your popular opinion is somehow right when it's professionals and even more silly when not all of them feel that way  Wink

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« Reply #586 on: January 28, 2012, 09:14:50 AM »

Headshake... this is why opinions are worthless, they can change moment to moment depending on how big their ego is, who theyre talking to, what they think the other person wants to hear....

Its all a bunch of shit. I say - fuck it.
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NarcissisticDeity
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I dont care what Ronnie says bc hes not a credible


« Reply #587 on: January 28, 2012, 09:15:19 AM »

So when I post an e-mail or video of Ronnie stating he is the best ever will you concede or come up with another excuse?

Dorian said with Ronnie having 8 Olympia and the most wins of any bodybuilder he may be the best ever , it all depends on the context

I don't need excuses
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NeoSeminole
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Ronnie > Dorian


« Reply #588 on: January 28, 2012, 09:16:13 AM »

You just shifted popular opinion of fans to the popular opinion of professionals , you can NOT escape this fact

I educated you earlier about the exception to ad populum yet you still play a fool?

"Non-fallacious examples of the ad populum:  the appeal is not irrelevant when what most persons believe or what the select few believe does in fact determine what is true.  Conventional truth such as the definitions of words,  standard use of symbols, styles, or political elections are typical examples where the appeal to the majority , the experts, or  the people-in-the-know would be relevant and so would not be fallacious."
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Wiggs
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« Reply #589 on: January 28, 2012, 09:16:57 AM »

Dorian said with Ronnie having 8 Olympia and the most wins of any bodybuilder he may be the best ever , it all depends on the context

I don't need excuses

Answer my question. WILL YOU CONCEDE IF I POST AN E-MAIL FROM RONNIE STATING HE IS THE BEST EVER?
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« Reply #590 on: January 28, 2012, 09:19:49 AM »

The point here is, Dorian, in peak condition, had NO fat, NO water, and his muscle had a very smooth, dense, polished marble look. Yes, I understand what youre getting at, but for some reason you are trying to insinuate that if a person has more striations, deeper striations and deeper separation between muscles genetically (yes, genetically, not everyone has the same appearance to their muscles, some are more separated at higher bodyfat than others) that must mean they have lower bodyfat, which is not the case. Lower bodyfat will emphasize these things, but you cannot compare striations between 2 different individuals to compare conditioning, it doesnt work. It would it they both had the same striations, same muscle separation, but people dont. Genetically people are different. Their muscles look different, have different thickness, different densities of fibers.
Coleman, weather at higher bodyfat or not, always had more visible striations and deeper separation (giving him the appearance of being better conditioning than he really was, like you said better conditioning will enhance the appearance of those "details", since Coleman genetically has more and deeper striations and muscle separation, it give the illusion of being in better shape due to EXACTLY what you are arguing.)
That in an of itself should be enough to show you that you cannot judge conditioning based on detail.


At least were getting somewhere now...

BBing is the most bullshit of contests, why? Because its based on appearances, and before you shout I am changing my point I will tell you Im not:

"you are trying to insinuate that if a person has more striations, deeper striations and deeper separation between muscles genetically (yes, genetically, not everyone has the same appearance to their muscles, some are more separated at higher bodyfat than others) that must mean they have lower bodyfat"

I am not trying to insinuate this, I am explicitly saying this; when you have to judge by the eye, whether in pictures or live, this kind of things tell.  Ok, now were getting to the point in which youll claim that Dorian had genetically worse separation and striation, I am going to say this is utter nonsense because it makes no practical difference, even if there is a genetical difference, it is by no means subtantial, in any way, more substantial is water and fat (or lack there of) when JUDGING (keep in mind we are just judging with the eyes and I DONT care for the opinion of shitty magazines or other bbers).

So now we are at a point in which none will be able to prove the claim that genetics will play, or not, a visual difference, my claim is that is doesnt, at all, and that in fact, Coleman has been the man with the greatest conditioning due greatly to virtually no fat and water, and of course the other side of the story, the mass that pushes against the skin giving aiding more in the cuts and what not.  Dorian was close, yes, but not quite.  I do not see how the exact same muscle fibers, the relative same amount of mass and dehydration, are less of a factor that "genetics", in fact, year after year, people blame water or fat to the lack of detail, not genetics, because again, our protein muscles are made of the same muscle fibers.  Also, genetics determine instertion points, shape of muscles, etc, how would it exactly play a role in striations?

Whatever though, this discussion leads to nowhere and it has been stretched far enough

Gooday.
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NarcissisticDeity
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I dont care what Ronnie says bc hes not a credible


« Reply #591 on: January 28, 2012, 09:23:00 AM »

I educated you earlier about the exception to ad populum yet you still play a fool?

"Non-fallacious examples of the ad populum:  the appeal is not irrelevant when what most persons believe or what the select few believe does in fact determine what is true.  Conventional truth such as the definitions of words,  standard use of symbols, styles, or political elections are typical examples where the appeal to the majority , the experts, or  the people-in-the-know would be relevant and so would not be fallacious."

Again YOU FAIL

[ Q ] When people talk of the greatest Olympian's Ronnie's name is usually high on the list. In fact, he is widely regarded as the best bodybuilder of all time.


[ A ] I hate to say this but they are blind. People that don't approve of what we are talking about right now are blind


people in the know


Vic Richards on Romano & Palumbo radio show 2010.

" To say Ronnie Coleman is the best bodybuilder is an insult , he doesn't even come in the top 12 "


people in the know


How about Arnold Schwarzenegger who said outright Flex Wheeler is the greatest physique he's ever seen?


people in the know

How about the fact that Ronnie himself said Dorian would beat him on multiple occasions? people in the know

Peter McGough


While Iím on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnieís at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that Ė 14 years after it happened Ė I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. Iím now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.


people in the know


Peter McGough - Flex, August 2005

"Personally, the best physique I ever saw onstage (there was a contender for best-ever that I saw offstage: those crazy photos of sock-footed Dorian Yates taken seven weeks before the 1993 Mr. Olympia) was Ronnie's at the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic.


people in the know


NO exception there bro , you're claiming ( fallaciously I might add ) that because more of the ' people in the know ' agree with your point of view , that it is correct , you're right back where you started , popular opinion

popular opinion and majority DO NOT judge contests the minority do. if 13 IFBB judges said Ronnie Coleman at his best beats Dorian precontest 1993 , then I would be wrong and admit so. and they haven't

keep clinging to popular opinion it's all you have because you did a piss-poor job at knowing/comprehending/using the IFBB criteria to present a cognizant , coherent , argument for Ronnie being better and you hedged all your bets on popular opinion

Again you failed there too. 
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NarcissisticDeity
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I dont care what Ronnie says bc hes not a credible


« Reply #592 on: January 28, 2012, 09:31:04 AM »

Answer my question. WILL YOU CONCEDE IF I POST AN E-MAIL FROM RONNIE STATING HE IS THE BEST EVER?

Oh Ronnie is somehow now a credible , reliable source when ( and if ) he agrees with your point?
Even though Ronnie said that Dorian would beat him multiple times I always maintained that it doesn't make it true or a fact , so even if Ronnie said he would beat Dorian , it doesn't make it true .

if you can post 13 different judges saying Ronnie Coleman at his career best beats Dorian Yates precontest 1993 , I would concede. Good luck with that.

And even if the judges did pick Ronnie I would have made a point anyway , and that's all the fanboys who scoff at the idea of Dorian being even mentioned in the same breath as Ronnie ' as if '  Roll Eyes

Dorian was untouchable during his reign , Ronnie wasn't he was beaten several times. Ronnie is hugely popular , partly because of his underdog status and Olympia wins and his training videos sealed the deal for a lot of people , this MYTH that Ronnie was unbeatable and untouchable is just that a myth , reality is ANY version of Ronnie , despite the outcome would have a fuck of a time beating Dorian.



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NeoSeminole
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Ronnie > Dorian


« Reply #593 on: January 28, 2012, 09:33:56 AM »

That's not all I posted and typical with you when faced with facts you ignore them.

McGough , Priest , Arnold , Leroy , Taylor , Richards , Samir , and Ronnie himself

McGough said Ronnie had the best physique ever, which you disagreed with thus removing any confidence you had in his credibility

Priest said Ronnie had better symmetry, which you disagreed with thus removing any confidence you had in his credibility

Where is the quote from Arnold so I can see what he said? And provide a source with the year

The quote from Ernie Taylor was taken right after the 98 Mr. Olympia. So it's irrelevant b/c it doesn't include the 01 ASC and 03 Mr. O

Richards? lmao

Where is the quote from Samir so I can see what he said? And provide a source with the year

Ronnie? The same guy who said he has better back than Dorian and would beat Dorian if they competed during Ronnie's prime?


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NeoSeminole
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Ronnie > Dorian


« Reply #594 on: January 28, 2012, 09:39:35 AM »

Again YOU FAIL

actually, you fail b/c here is what I see:

1 anonymous quote that doesn't disprove sh*t
1 quote from Victor Richards. Enough said, lol
1 irrelevant quote from Arnold that doesn't pertain to this discussion
2 quotes from Peter McGough that don't say Dorian would beat Ronnie. Only that it would be close

so what did you accomplish with your post? Nothing
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NeoSeminole
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Ronnie > Dorian


« Reply #595 on: January 28, 2012, 09:44:37 AM »

Also, you better step your game up ND. I'm going to stop acknowledging quotes you post without sources

that's some elementary grade bullsh*t. I don't know how you passed high school without learning how to cite
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« Reply #596 on: January 28, 2012, 09:44:58 AM »

Jesus christ people.
This is a thread about Yates 95 scans.
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« Reply #597 on: January 28, 2012, 09:45:39 AM »

Metabolic - as this trollfest argument has shifted to actual conversation and not just 2 people trolling each other, I will respond later when I have more time.
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Wiggs
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« Reply #598 on: January 28, 2012, 09:45:49 AM »

Oh Ronnie is somehow now a credible , reliable source when ( and if ) he agrees with your point?
Even though Ronnie said that Dorian would beat him multiple times I always maintained that it doesn't make it true or a fact , so even if Ronnie said he would beat Dorian , it doesn't make it true .

if you can post 13 different judges saying Ronnie Coleman at his career best beats Dorian Yates precontest 1993 , I would concede. Good luck with that.

And even if the judges did pick Ronnie I would have made a point anyway , and that's all the fanboys who scoff at the idea of Dorian being even mentioned in the same breath as Ronnie ' as if '  Roll Eyes

Dorian was untouchable during his reign , Ronnie wasn't he was beaten several times. Ronnie is hugely popular , partly because of his underdog status and Olympia wins and his training videos sealed the deal for a lot of people , this MYTH that Ronnie was unbeatable and untouchable is just that a myth , reality is ANY version of Ronnie , despite the outcome would have a fuck of a time beating Dorian.





That's what I thought.... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #599 on: January 28, 2012, 09:48:20 AM »

Dorian slaughtering Kevin in the side tri (even though Levrone has bigger tri's)
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