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Author Topic: Can gay people go to heaven?  (Read 2540 times)
BayGBM
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« on: February 16, 2012, 10:46:46 AM »

Can gay people go to heaven?  

I pose this question in a historical context: it used to be a commonly held belief in the United States that only white people could go to heaven.  Blacks, Native Americans, and others went somewhere elseónot necessarily to hell, but definitely not to heaven.  Given the hostility to gay marriage and the unwelcome climate of most churches in the U.S. to gays and lesbians, I wonder if many churchgoers today believe that gays and lesbians can go to heaven.


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Primemuscle
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2012, 12:09:55 PM »

Can gay people go to heaven?  

I pose this question in a historical context: it used to be a commonly held belief in the United States that only white people could go to heaven.  Blacks, Native Americans, and others went somewhere elseónot necessarily to hell, but definitely not to heaven.  Given the hostility to gay marriage and the unwelcome climate of most churches in the U.S. to gays and lesbians, I wonder if many churchgoers today believe that gays and lesbians can go to heaven.


I go to church. If there is a heaven, I believe everyone goes there. I don't believe in hell and I don't believe in limbo.
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MCWAY
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2012, 08:46:20 PM »

Can gay people go to heaven?  

I pose this question in a historical context: it used to be a commonly held belief in the United States that only white people could go to heaven.  Blacks, Native Americans, and others went somewhere elseónot necessarily to hell, but definitely not to heaven.  Given the hostility to gay marriage and the unwelcome climate of most churches in the U.S. to gays and lesbians, I wonder if many churchgoers today believe that gays and lesbians can go to heaven.


Whether they believe it or not has no bearing, based on Scripture (specifically a passage you've heard several times):

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


The emphasis is that all sinners (homosexuals included) must repent and be sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus Christ. The problem is that too many in the faith harp on verses 9 and 10, while ignoring verse 11.
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tonymctones
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2012, 08:52:53 PM »

I go to church. If there is a heaven, I believe everyone goes there. I don't believe in hell and I don't believe in limbo.
what do you believe the incentive is to act in a way in accordance with the bibles teachings then?

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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2012, 08:54:11 PM »

Whether they believe it or not has no bearing, based on Scripture (specifically a passage you've heard several times):

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


The emphasis is that all sinners (homosexuals included) must repent and be sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus Christ. The problem is that too many in the faith harp on verses 9 and 10, while ignoring verse 11.

McWay - I don't know the bible as well as you

What is the name of the person who wrote this part of the bible

What is the definition of a fornicator as specified in this passage and also what is the defintion of an adulterer ?

I assume their must be some distinction between the two
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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2012, 10:08:22 PM »

McWay - I don't know the bible as well as you

What is the name of the person who wrote this part of the bible

Paul


What is the definition of a fornicator as specified in this passage and also what is the defintion of an adulterer ?

I assume their must be some distinction between the two

Fornicator: non-married person having sex with another non-married person

Adulterer: someone having sex with another who is married; someone who is married having sex with someone other than his/her spouse.
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2012, 10:34:57 PM »

what do you believe the incentive is to act in a way in accordance with the bibles teachings then?



The bible was written by men for their fellow tribesmen in a very different world than the one we live in today. What was relevant to survival then is no longer. I think of the bible as man's folklore and not the word of God. The incentive to act in whatever way one chooses lies in the knowledge that what you sow so shall you reap....and I am speaking of the here and now, not the hereafter.
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 11:22:55 PM »

Paul

Fornicator: non-married person having sex with another non-married person

Adulterer: someone having sex with another who is married; someone who is married having sex with someone other than his/her spouse.

so this person called Paul actually wrote this?

also, just to clarify

is it only non married person with non married person = fornicator ?

what if one person is married and the other is not

is that one fornicator and one adulter or are they both adulterers?
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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 11:37:02 PM »

so this person called Paul actually wrote this?

also, just to clarify

is it only non married person with non married person = fornicator ?

what if one person is married and the other is not

is that one fornicator and one adulter or are they both adulterers?

Adultery involves as least one married person, the penalty for committing adultery was DEATH...for both parties involved.
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 12:41:49 AM »

Adultery involves as least one married person, the penalty for committing adultery was DEATH...for both parties involved.

WAS is the operative word here.
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tonymctones
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2012, 06:58:35 AM »

The bible was written by men for their fellow tribesmen in a very different world than the one we live in today. What was relevant to survival then is no longer. I think of the bible as man's folklore and not the word of God. The incentive to act in whatever way one chooses lies in the knowledge that what you sow so shall you reap....and I am speaking of the here and now, not the hereafter.
You seem to be referring to karma, so really God has no bearing on your life or actions here on earth. You will go to heaven regardless of whether you are a good Christian or a raping murderer who never repents?
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2012, 09:13:50 AM »

You seem to be referring to karma, so really God has no bearing on your life or actions here on earth. You will go to heaven regardless of whether you are a good Christian or a raping murderer who never repents?

I don't believe in heaven. But if I did, I believe that all people who have honestly lived good lives would go there....and that man's laws do not define what is good and what is not because goodness comes from within and not from without.

Your reply doesn't follow a logical sequence. What if I am not a "good Christian" (whatever that is) and I am also not a raping murderer who never repents and let's suppose there were a heaven, would I go there? For example in your opinion, do folks who have done nothing seriously bad in their lives and who are Buddist, Muslim, Mormon or Jewish etc. go to the hereafter? Or are you one of those folks who believes heaven is reserved only for "good Christains" or bad ones who repent?
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2012, 11:17:45 AM »

Adultery involves as least one married person, the penalty for committing adultery was DEATH...for both parties involved.

I don't see any distinction in your quote as to the result of being a fornicator, adulter, idolators, thieves, drunkards, etc..

according to "Paul" or whoever actually wrote this passage, he seems top believe that none of these people shall "inherit the kingdom of God" ....whatever that actually means

seems like plenty of modern christians would fall into many of the aforementioned categories
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2012, 02:56:28 PM »

I don't see any distinction in your quote as to the result of being a fornicator, adulter, idolators, thieves, drunkards, etc..

according to "Paul" or whoever actually wrote this passage, he seems top believe that none of these people shall "inherit the kingdom of God" ....whatever that actually means

seems like plenty of modern christians would fall into many of the aforementioned categories

EXACTLY!!

Paul wrote in Romans 6 that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".
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tonymctones
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2012, 04:35:56 PM »

I don't believe in heaven. But if I did, I believe that all people who have honestly lived good lives would go there....and that man's laws do not define what is good and what is not because goodness comes from within and not from without.

Your reply doesn't follow a logical sequence. What if I am not a "good Christian" (whatever that is) and I am also not a raping murderer who never repents and let's suppose there were a heaven, would I go there? For example in your opinion, do folks who have done nothing seriously bad in their lives and who are Buddist, Muslim, Mormon or Jewish etc. go to the hereafter? Or are you one of those folks who believes heaven is reserved only for "good Christains" or bad ones who repent?
you seem to subscribe to christianity while creating your own beliefs? why is that if you dont believe in christianity then why attend church?

Thats a good question, according to the Bible the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Now what it is or isnt, well Ill find out sooner or later as will you.
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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2012, 04:40:28 PM »

depends whether they are coming or going
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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2012, 04:55:48 PM »

you seem to subscribe to christianity while creating your own beliefs? why is that if you dont believe in christianity then why attend church?

Thats a good question, according to the Bible the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Now what it is or isnt, well Ill find out sooner or later as will you.

Sorry to have confused you about my faith. My wife is Catholic. I attend church with her for her and because I love her. My father and his family were Episcopalian. My mom probably attended a Christian Science Church as a child. My mom and step dad were Religious Scientist....kind of a new age religion that embraces all beliefs. I attended church with them on the rare occasion that they decided to go. So given all that, I was probably most influenced by the metaphysical teachings of Religious Science. Truthfully, I am open to any teaching that helps people find a better life and be better people.

I guess we will all find out someday what comes after this life....maybe just dust as in "ashes to ashes and dust to dust."
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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2012, 05:23:09 PM »

EXACTLY!!

Paul wrote in Romans 6 that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

so according to  Paul (or whoever actually wrote this part of the bible)

the following people will not be going to heaven:

fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, nor effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous,  drunkards,  revilers, nor extortioners

I assume non-effeminate men are Ok (provided they are not also fornicators, drunkards, etc..) and same goes for lesbians

I'm not really sure  what "abusers of themselves with mankind" refers to.   Did "Paul" provide any clarification on this

BTW - from this list it seems almost no one will be going to heaven.

McWay - I'm guessing you're somewhere on that list too.

Most likely a fornicator at the very least.

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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2012, 05:28:41 PM »

so according to  Paul (or whoever actually wrote this part of the bible)

the following people will not be going to heaven:

fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, nor effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous,  drunkards,  revilers, nor extortioners

I assume non-effeminate men are Ok (provided they are not also fornicators, drunkards, etc..) and same goes for lesbians

Your assumption is incorrect. See Romans 1:26-32.

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
    and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
    And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,   being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


I'm not really sure  what "abusers of themselves with mankind" refers to.   Did "Paul" provide any clarification on this

My guess would be non-effeminate homosexuals.


BTW - from this list it seems almost no one will be going to heaven.

McWay - I'm guessing you're somewhere on that list too.

Most likely a fornicator at the very least.



Again, you forget verse 1 Cor. 6:11. Unfortunately, so do a lot of people.
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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2012, 06:04:14 PM »

Your assumption is incorrect. See Romans 1:26-32.

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
    and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
    And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,   being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

My guess would be non-effeminate homosexuals.

Again, you forget verse 1 Cor. 6:11. Unfortunately, so do a lot of people.

so you never had premarital sex?

btw - how do we know Paul wasn't just talking out of his ass and giving his own personal opinions?
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« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2012, 06:22:59 PM »

btw - how do we know Paul wasn't just talking out of his ass and giving his own personal opinions?

Exactly! How do we know that all contributors to the Bible weren't just preaching from the standpoint of personal beliefs as opposed to actually conveying the word of God?

Well, those who believe that the bible is gospel will tell you that what is written therein is the word of God and you should not question it all but take it on faith.
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« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2012, 06:24:15 PM »

so you never had premarital sex?

Unfortunately, I can't make such a claim.


btw - how do we know Paul wasn't just talking out of his ass and giving his own personal opinions?

Because his words are consistent with other parts of Scripture, including the Old Testament, and with the words of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2012, 06:27:20 PM »

Exactly! How do we know that all contributors to the Bible weren't just preaching from the standpoint of personal beliefs as opposed to actually conveying the word of God?

Well, those who believe that the bible is gospel will tell you that what is written therein is the word of God and you should not question it all but take it on faith.

And who told you that again?

I don't know what churches you've attended or people you know. But, NOBODY with whom I've encountered has ever claimed that people should just take it on faith.
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« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2012, 06:46:40 PM »

And who told you that again?

I don't know what churches you've attended or people you know. But, NOBODY with whom I've encountered has ever claimed that people should just take it on faith.

Before marrying my wife 47 years ago, I agreed to go through catechism classes, not because I was planing on converting, but because I wanted to better understand her religion since I was marrying her and agreeing our children would be raised Catholic. When I would question certain teachings I was told to take it on faith by the priest teaching the class. One of the beliefs I could not comprehend was the idea that babies who died and had not been properly baptized would go to limbo as opposed to heaven because of original sin. This also applied to babies which died in childbirth.

Eventually, the priest and I decided to agree to disagree and I stopped attending the classes.
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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2012, 06:58:49 PM »

Before marrying my wife 47 years ago, I agreed to go through catechism classes, not because I was planing on converting, but because I wanted to better understand her religion since I was marrying her and agreeing our children would be raised Catholic. When I would question certain teachings I was told to take it on faith by the priest teaching the class. One of the beliefs I could not comprehend was the idea that babies who died and had not been properly baptized would go to limbo as opposed to heaven because of original sin. This also applied to babies which died in childbirth.

Eventually, the priest and I decided to agree to disagree and I stopped attending the classes.

That tends to happen among Catholic folks (which I am not; so that explains what I said earlier).

Every preacher to whom I've asked a question about our faith has either answered the question directly, or pointed me to the Scriptures to get a better grasp on the concept.

At the risk of talking a potshot at some Catholics, I will say that any priest who tells you that either doesn't know the answer himself or DOES know the answer but would rather stick with traditions than go with Scripture.
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