My first cycle total plan and stat, feedback.

[aesthetics]

listen, steroids are like a signal. so say you have a contractor building a house. he wants this house to be really big and bad ass and he's certainly intelligent enough to tell all his workers what to do (there's enough signal to make it happen), BUT there are not enough building materials. he's only going to be able to build a small house.

so you see, by limiting your intake, you are limiting your potential for growth. eat til you're full. don't stuff yourself. eat balanced and not a bunch of sugary processed junk and you wont run into insulin resistance (pre-diabetic) conditions.

this is a bad analogy and i even explained in the post why it isn't like this. i don't want to keep repeating myself when it's falling on deaf ears so i'm done.  

[aesthetics]

I agree completely.

Nobody wants to put in any work. They just want to shoot Tren/Mast and turn into Arnold in 8 weeks. Which we all know is complete bullshit. Rome wasn't built over night and you will never become a bodybuilder just because you use Tren.

500mg of Test will not make you bloofy/fat and you will not need any type of AI with a does that small. It's when you go over 1500mg that you see bloating issues. Even then it's easily controlled.

As far as the OP question, i would shoot 50-75mg ED of Prop and see how that treats you in 8 weeks. When you feel comfortable with Test Prop you can add in some Tren A.

Keep it simple bro, no need to throw all these compounds into the mix for your first cycle.

Tren by itself can be a nightmare. You can research it or take these guy's word for it. Personally i would research it and ask as many questions as you wish. I have trained with some of the top guys in the nation and they all LOVE Test and lots of it. Most of the NPC guys i know only use Tren precontest.

Good luck!

i think the sides of tren are greatly exaggerated. like you said with test, the bad sides don't come out until high dosages, why not apply that same mentality to tren instead of writing it off?

even still, many people can handle running 100mg/ed just fine. i think the people who are unable to run it are in the very, very, small minority. can you make polls on this board? it would be interesting to see the results of it.

i agree with you about the hard work and dedication. all the pros - all the pros who have physiques worth idolizing - they had all been training for decades and they all trained with intensity. there are a lot of analogies that can be applied to steroid usage, but essentially what it comes down to is this: steroids are simply a tool to build something, but it still requires the labor to lay the bricks and mortar, as nothing will build itself

[El Diablo Blanco]

i think the sides of tren are greatly exaggerated. like you said with test, the bad sides don't come out until high dosages, why not apply that same mentality to tren instead of writing it off?

even still, many people can handle running 100mg/ed just fine. i think the people who are unable to run it are in the very, very, small minority. can you make polls on this board? it would be interesting to see the results of it.

i agree with you about the hard work and dedication. all the pros - all the pros who have physiques worth idolizing - they had all been training for decades and they all trained with intensity. there are a lot of analogies that can be applied to steroid usage, but essentially what it comes down to is this: steroids are simply a tool to build something, but it still requires the labor to lay the bricks and mortar, as nothing will build itself

I think sides really come from history of drug use, age, health etc...  A 19 year old can get away with more shit than a 30 year old.  But a 19 year old raver might get more sides than a 19 year old health nut.  Human nature man.  That is why some dudes can cycle once and look like they are IFBB material and others need 5 cycles to get there.

[abijahmaniaco]

You bring a good point in the end. People keep on talking about how much better bb was in the 80's but in the 80's weren't they all using lots of Test and a little of the other stuff.  Not as much extra shit as they do today?  Can't people put 2 and 2 together that mixing 6 drugs is not going to make you look like arnold since arnold only took maybe 3-4 different compounds.

no, they reportedly didn't use a lot of test back then. they used primobolan, deca, and dbol.

[aesthetics]

I think sides really come from history of drug use, age, health etc...  A 19 year old can get away with more shit than a 30 year old.  But a 19 year old raver might get more sides than a 19 year old health nut.  Human nature man.  That is why some dudes can cycle once and look like they are IFBB material and others need 5 cycles to get there.

yea, that's absolutely true. genetics play a huge role. i feel barely any sides on GH or roids until i mega dose the stuff.

no, they reportedly didn't use a lot of test back then. they used primobolan, deca, and dbol.

this is also true. 70s no one used test, 80s test was still not commonly used. 90s was when test, slin and gh started to make a huge impact on the sport.

[Overload]

i think the sides of tren are greatly exaggerated. like you said with test, the bad sides don't come out until high dosages, why not apply that same mentality to tren instead of writing it off?

even still, many people can handle running 100mg/ed just fine. i think the people who are unable to run it are in the very, very, small minority. can you make polls on this board? it would be interesting to see the results of it.

i agree with you about the hard work and dedication. all the pros - all the pros who have physiques worth idolizing - they had all been training for decades and they all trained with intensity. there are a lot of analogies that can be applied to steroid usage, but essentially what it comes down to is this: steroids are simply a tool to build something, but it still requires the labor to lay the bricks and mortar, as nothing will build itself

I concur.

The sides with Tren seem to be hit or miss, but in my experience more people have trouble with Tren than any other compound. It's a great compound and works wonders, but it's not magic.

You raise some great points and i cannot argue against what you say, as i know a lot of guys who run high doses of Tren with no problems. It's just a grey area for me, i hate to give out advice on using Tren to a first cycle because i know a lot of people have issues with it.

You can create a poll on this board. I'd like to see the results as well.

[El Diablo Blanco]

Even tren doesn't equal the same tren from different sources.  Tran from d vs, tren from P vs. tren from s etc....  Will all differ.

How many times have you heard someone say, I used tren from P and the sides were bad and they said well try tren from source a, I tried it and no sides blah blah blah

[Overload]

yea, that's absolutely true. genetics play a huge role. i feel barely any sides on GH or roids until i mega dose the stuff. 

I am the opposite. I get severe anxiety off small amounts of Tren. As little as 600mg of Deca makes me have serious acne. Yet Test treats me like a King. I feel great all the time and the rest of my body agrees with it and my bloodwork is always good on it.

I get bad sides from GH as well. Hands go numb all the time and my wrists hurt like shit whenever i go above 6iu.

We are all different. That is why i hate blanket statements. I don't want people to think i'm against Tren, i'm just trying to warn people that it can mess with you more than other compounds.

[abijahmaniaco]

with tren in particular, it drastically reduces protein turnover rate, which means the body requires less protein to stay anabolic and the increased nutrient partitioning characteristic (i believe due to increased systemic IGF-1 levels, as well as increased IGF at the local, muscle level) means less carbs are also required for the muscles to stay hard, and keep strength up.

i just re-read llewellyn's profile on tren ace. i find no mention of these effects you speak of. any evidence? i'm not doubting you necessarily. i've just never heard this before.

increased nutrient partitioning characteristic

and what do you mean by this?

[Arnold jr]

The cycle is fine, and like Overload said, there's no reason to worry about getting bloated. Testosterone bloat is so easy to control it's ridiculous...in most case, if there's a problem, there's a problem with you...most of the time, it just means you're eating like a big fat pig which is obviously not going to be a problem for you.

I remember doing prep diets with nothing but larger ester testosterone when I was around your age...it was all I had or could afford. I was lean and hard and turned out fine. Absolutely, additional things made a huge difference, and I eventually got there too, but there's nothing wrong with a simple test cycle. I seriously doubt you're going to gain a massive amount of lean tissue on this plan based on the dosing and your diet, but your physique should improve notably.

[aesthetics]

i just re-read llewellyn's profile on tren ace. i find no mention of these effects you speak of. any evidence? i'm not doubting you necessarily. i've just never heard this before.

and what do you mean by this?

you said it yourself here

this is true. in fact, this is the very reason they give it to cows—to increase feeding efficiency. so they feed them less, give them finaplix, and reap the same harvest.

it increases the efficiency of the food utilization, essentially requiring less food for anabolism as more of the food goes towards building muscle rather than fat storage


here's an article for your first question:

Abstract

Although androgenic and estrogenic steroids are widely used to enhance muscle growth and increase feed efficiency in feedlot cattle, their mechanism of action is not well understood. Although in vivo studies have indicated that androgens affect protein synthesis and protein degradation rate in muscle, results from in vitro studies have been inconsistent. We have examined the effects of trenbolone acetate (TBA), a synthetic androgen, on protein synthesis and degradation rates in fused bovine satellite cell (BSC) cultures. Additionally, we have examined the effects of compounds that interfere with binding of TBA or insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) to their respective receptors on TBA-induced alterations in protein synthesis and degradation rates in BSC cultures. Treatment of fused BSC cultures with TBA results in a concentration-dependent increase (P < 0.05) in protein synthesis rate and a decrease (P < 0.05) in degradation rate, establishing that TBA directly affects these parameters. Flutamide, a compound that prevents androgen binding to the androgen receptor, suppresses (P < 0.05) TBA-induced alterations in protein synthesis and degradation in fused BSC cultures, indicating the androgen receptor is involved. JB1, a competitive inhibitor of IGF-1 binding to the type 1 IGF receptor (IGF1R), suppresses (P < 0.05) TBA-induced alterations in protein synthesis and degradation, indicating that this receptor also is involved in the actions of TBA on both synthesis and degradation. In summary, our data show that TBA acts directly to alter both protein synthesis and degradation rates in fused BSC cultures via mechanisms involving both the androgen receptor and IGF1R.

in vivo studies shows it decreases protein synthesis and overall protein turnover. i'm trying to find the article, as i remember a pubmed that was on this subject but i can't find it at the moment so here is an excerpt from a google book

In an attempt to elucidate the mode of action of an androgenic growth promoter,
Vernon & Buttery (1976, 19784b) studied the effect of trenbolone acetate on
protein turnover in the female rat. (Trenbolone acetate seems to require the
presence of an oestrogen in order to promote a significant growth response
(Heitzman, 1976)). Trenbolone acetate appeared to reduce the rate of muscle
protein synthesis (assessed by the technique described by Garlick & Marshall,
1972) and the rate of muscle protein breakdown (assessed both by the Na, 14C03
technique (Millward, 1970) and by the excretion of N-t-methyl histidine (Vernon &
Buttery, 1976, 19780)) (see Table I).

[Overload]

Looks like i was wrong. You can't start a poll here, but i can add one to a thread.

I guess since i never started one i was oblivious to this change.

[aesthetics]

ya, i thought only mods could make the polls here, in some fashion or another.

[abijahmaniaco]

the first article is an interesting read; to see all the factors it affects. but for all intents and purposes this information does not seem very useful to the bodybuilder. i mean, when i take tren it's not like i am able to monitor all these factors. all i can do is do my best to supply my body with the nutrients it needs to be healthy and insure a constant availability of amino acids in my blood stream around the clock for whenever my body is prompted to build muscle. so in the end, i don't think skimping on calories is ever a good idea (under the obvious assumption that what you're eating is healthy and balanced).

the second article i'm a bit confused about
"a decrease in protein synthesis"—wouldn't that mean a lesser amount of muscle being metabolized from protein? wouldn't it result in the opposite—an increase in protein synthesis?

[aesthetics]

"a decrease in protein synthesis"—wouldn't that mean a lesser amount of muscle being metabolized from protein?

yes, that is what it means, however, protein degradation is reduces much more so than protein synthesis so there is a net gain in anabolism with less protein necessary because protein turnover is decreased.

tren is the only steroid that has been shown in studies to reduce protein turnover, while things like testosterone increase protein turnover (increase protein synthesis and protein degradation, though protein synthesis again much more so than degradation so a net increase in anabolism)

[IZO]

Hii

Want to thank everyone for the great feedback, lots of interestning reading hope it can remain.

My main goal is to try gain lean quality mass as possible,and learn how my body responds on gear , since this is my first cycle its very important. I belive that you have to go for it 100%, train hard, eat, take good time to lisent to your body and how it reacts. We are all different and have our own goals, its important to try to find whats best for us to achieve our goals..

Trenbolone Acetate has also been very interestning for me, have not done any serious research on it yet.
Many told me to stay away from it for the first cycle.

I think that it maybe is to advanced to stack it with Test Prop in my first cycle, and to run just Tren A might not be the best thing to do?

Seems that (aesthetics) and (abijahmaniaco) have som great experience.


All feedback is appreciated.

[deadpan]

ok, serious post now. if you're really 8% and eat that clean and with all your experience i can say you'll blow up and are prime candidate for using gear.

you're doing everything right. guys like you it's like you already have the motor and the wheels and everything else to a car, but you've just been without the key. when you get it you're gonna take off for sure.

but

my recommendations nonetheless:

drop these:
Whey isolate
Bcaa
Glutamine

waste of money in my opinion. unless you just have tons of money and want to continue with them. but i think you'll get the same results without them.

keep these:
Multi vits
Zma
Vit c

just for your health.

instead of only test i would go straight to
test propionate 150mg / week + tren ace 300 mg a week and proviron or masteron.

good luck. and realize that after eight years you're already maxed out naturally! if you go off cycle you will return to your current weight. just sayin'.

dude zma and oral vitamins don't really absorb effectively enough to warrant the price.....

then again if your food intake is correct you don't really need protein shakes either

[IZO]

Food is 100% for me..
I use whey isolate shake direct after training and sometimes in the morning if the protein intake during the day is low,  works great for me..

[deadpan]

Food is 100% for me..
I use whey isolate shake direct after training and sometimes in the morning if the protein intake during the day is low,  works great for me..

i like hydrolysate post personally, supposedly your body absorbs it quicker but honestly i just like that it mixes better.....less bloating/stomach issues as well

[abijahmaniaco]

yes, that is what it means, however, protein degradation is reduces much more so than protein synthesis so there is a net gain in anabolism with less protein necessary because protein turnover is decreased.

tren is the only steroid that has been shown in studies to reduce protein turnover, while things like testosterone increase protein turnover (increase protein synthesis and protein degradation, though protein synthesis again much more so than degradation so a net increase in anabolism)

i see, well that's interesting. thanks.

[abijahmaniaco]

dude zma and oral vitamins don't really absorb effectively enough to warrant the price.....

then again if your food intake is correct you don't really need protein shakes either

i minimize supplements myself and depend on food. i juice fruits and vegetables three times a week to get an array of micro nutrients. i feel more confident in doing that then popping a multi-vitamin.

but again, if money is not at all an issue a multi-vitamin can't hurt either.

but for most of us we could be saving that money for hgh so. 

[wes]

I agree completely.

Nobody wants to put in any work. They just want to shoot Tren/Mast and turn into Arnold in 8 weeks. Which we all know is complete bullshit. Rome wasn't built over night and you will never become a bodybuilder just because you use Tren.

500mg of Test will not make you bloofy/fat and you will not need any type of AI with a does that small. It's when you go over 1500mg that you see bloating issues. Even then it's easily controlled.

As far as the OP question, i would shoot 50-75mg ED of Prop and see how that treats you in 8 weeks. When you feel comfortable with Test Prop you can add in some Tren A.

Keep it simple bro, no need to throw all these compounds into the mix for your first cycle.

Tren by itself can be a nightmare. You can research it or take these guy's word for it. Personally i would research it and ask as many questions as you wish. I have trained with some of the top guys in the nation and they all LOVE Test and lots of it. Most of the NPC guys i know only use Tren precontest.

Good luck!

Good post,I agree on all counts.

At times,it seems like Tren has just been recently discovered here on getbig.

[Arnold jr]

Good post,I agree on all counts.

At times,it seems like Tren has just been recently discovered here on getbig.

What's this Tren you speak of? Is that some kind of vitamin or is it like a creatine sauce you put on your chicken? I don't understand, please explain. Really trying to grow massive and shred up. I weigh 182.437lbs, I've been training all my life...well, about 18 months but that's close enough to call it all my life. I'm I'd say right at 14.9% BF. I haven't actually checked it but based on what I conjured with my imagination I'm right at 14.9%...if I was to go over 15% I'd die. I've got good abs, sort of like Brad Pitt in Fight Club. I've been working my ass off in the gym, I do flat bench and BB curls like crazy and hit some leg extension the other day like a mad man. I really did do like 24 sets of flat bench the other day and the girls were like looking like crazy at my jack.

Anyway, I really want to bulk up to about 245, maybe 250 but I want to be realistic. I'd like my body-fat to be around 3%, just enough fat to still be able to enjoy life and kick it. BTW, I drink so much protein powder and I've been looking at this GNC supplement called "Ripped Mass Anabolic Monster 4000." It says it's more potent than testosterone and Dbol and has fat burning properties like HGH and is guaranteed to own lives. It also says it might cause aggression similar to roid rage and that worries me, cause I already rage like crazy when I'm doing flat bench. Just drinking my protein powder sometimes gets me raging in like 5 minutes and I'm worried I won't be able to handle the "Ripped Mass Anabolic 4000." What do you think? Should I give it a try or should I try this Tren thing you're talking about?

One last thing. my boy said I need to be taking carbolyn with all my shakes if I want to be like huge and ripped. This guy is massive and shredded, he's not some gay competitor but he takes lots of carbolyn and probably does more flat bench then me which is saying something. Most everybody at the gym knows he takes carbolyn and I some people hate on him since it's pretty much a steroid, but he told me something huge the other day...I'm leaving his name out cause I don't want to out my boy. He said it's not just the carbolyn but that and he east like tons of ham every day and that's why he can do so much flat bench now. So I guess my last question is do you think I should try something like Tren to get where I want to be, or should I just try the carbolyn ham combination?

Sorry for the long post and so many questions, I'm just really trying to be a bad ass and want all the girls to see my freak ass when I'm at the club laying down my style. I'm mean that's why we do this, you know what I mean?

[wes]

LOL 

[jparker]

Damn near choked on my lunch