primo

[MuscleMcMannus]

would you mind explaining what you mean by this?

Every steroid has anabolic properties and androgenic properties.  Testosterone happens to be very androgenic and very anabolic.  Other drugs such as deca are very anabolic and less androgenic. 

[tbombz]

Every steroid has anabolic properties and androgenic properties.  Testosterone happens to be very androgenic and very anabolic.  Other drugs such as deca are very anabolic and less androgenic. 

I know. I was refering to what you said about half the gains being anabolic and half the gains being androgenic.

[MuscleMcMannus]

I know. I was refering to what you said about half the gains being anabolic and half the gains being androgenic.

Just meant that when you take a highly androgenic compound a lot of the "gains" you see are due to the side effects of estrogen conversion.  I.e. water retention and fat gain hence muscles "look" bigger.  More anabolic gains have to do with actual muscle hypertrophy. 

[tbombz]

I dont remember seeing anything that correlates androgenic effects to aromatization. nor anything that shows that estrogen would cause fat gain, in fact IIRC estrogen is actually a lipolytic hormone, and also has several indirect anabolic effects helping androgens promote hypertrophy.

[FreakPeak]

I dont remember seeing anything that correlates androgenic effects to aromatization. nor anything that shows that estrogen would cause fat gain, in fact IIRC estrogen is actually a lipolytic hormone, and also has several indirect anabolic effects helping androgens promote hypertrophy.

Can you provide any evidence to suggest that estrogen is lipolytic?

[MuscleMcMannus]

I dont remember seeing anything that correlates androgenic effects to aromatization. nor anything that shows that estrogen would cause fat gain, in fact IIRC estrogen is actually a lipolytic hormone, and also has several indirect anabolic effects helping androgens promote hypertrophy.

   the only thing you do is go around arguing with everyone.  Androgens convert to estrogen in supraphysiologic doses.  What the fuck do you think causes water retention, bitch tits, etc?  Estrogen CAN cause fat gain at supraphysiological doses in men.  We are not talking normal levels here but AN EXTREME EXCESS! 

[MuscleMcMannus]

It is wrong to think, however, that estrogen and its effects (particularly water and fat retention) are absolutely detrimental to bodybuilding. Remember that this hormone is also responsible for muscle strength and gains. Consequently, it minimizes the occurrence of injury as it improves the ability of muscle fibers to withstand contractile tension or stress. Notice that one of the side effects of Arimidex use (as mentioned below) is the likely occurrence of fractures, a major drawback of this drug. This is because when Arimidex effectively blocks the formation of estrogen, it effectively blocks the benefits of this hormone as well. This is why many still decide for estrogen receptor antagonists like Nolvadex and Clomid because these drugs allow some estrogen activity in the body.

But yes there are protective and postive benefits of estrogen but it IS NOT ANABOLIC!  Hence you don't want to completely get rid of it but MINIMIZE IT!  There's a difference.  If you're just going to argue with me for the sake of fucking arguing don't respond to me or my replies.  You're really annoying dude. 

[4thAD]

It is wrong to think, however, that estrogen and its effects (particularly water and fat retention) are absolutely detrimental to bodybuilding. Remember that this hormone is also responsible for muscle strength and gains. Consequently, it minimizes the occurrence of injury as it improves the ability of muscle fibers to withstand contractile tension or stress. Notice that one of the side effects of Arimidex use (as mentioned below) is the likely occurrence of fractures, a major drawback of this drug. This is because when Arimidex effectively blocks the formation of estrogen, it effectively blocks the benefits of this hormone as well. This is why many still decide for estrogen receptor antagonists like Nolvadex and Clomid because these drugs allow some estrogen activity in the body.

But yes there are protective and postive benefits of estrogen but it IS NOT ANABOLIC!  Hence you don't want to completely get rid of it but MINIMIZE IT!  There's a difference.  If you're just going to argue with me for the sake of fucking arguing don't respond to me or my replies.  You're really annoying dude. 

You are absolutely correct here MM! I remember once I told tbombz to start supplementing estrogen in his cycles and to watch what happens since he is so pro estrogen. He told me it is an excellent especially with non-aromatizing steroids like tren. He went on to say that this is done in cattle and look how they grow or something of the sort. I was so stupified that I didn't even bother to reply. I wonder if he knows its used in female cattle?

[tbombz]

But yes there are protective and postive benefits of estrogen but it IS NOT ANABOLIC!  Hence you don't want to completely get rid of it but MINIMIZE IT!  There's a difference.  If you're just going to argue with me for the sake of fucking arguing don't respond to me or my replies.  You're really annoying dude. 

estrogen isnt directly anabolic, no. and i didnt claim it was. but there are several indirect mechanisms through which it is anabolic and synergistic with androgens. 

for example -

we already know that when AI's or SERM's are used during a cycle, that the increases in GH and IGF1 that normally occur when on AAS do nto occur, in fact the levels of those two hormones drop below what they would normally be.  now, while it has never been proven that this works on any type of linear scale (its never been proven that higher than normal levels of estrogen will lead to even greater increases in GH and IGF1 than would normally occur on a cycle), through anecdotal evidence it does seemingly work that way.

we already know that increasing the level of estrogen in the body potentially increases the amount (density) of androgen receptors in the body. with more androgen receptors, one can get better results with the same amount of androgens. (an androgen can do more 'work' in the body before its metabolized)

If i recall correctly, estrogens play a role in the development of satellite cells, and the more estrogen you have the more SC youll have. satellite cells are what signal to your body that its time to build muscle. theyre activated in response to weight training. the more satellite cells you have, the easier it becomes to activate growth, and the more growth you activate.

increasing estrogen correlates to increases in the bodies efficiency to metabolize glucose. as we know glucose ingestion causes the pancrease t release insulin....blah blah blah (this isnt a nutrition forum so i wont get into how eating carbs is very helpful for promotin anabolism)... bottom line = eating more carbs and using them helps one grow faster.



thats just a few of the ways estrogen can indirectly promote anabolism... i think theres some more

You are absolutely correct here MM! I remember once I told tbombz to start supplementing estrogen in his cycles and to watch what happens since he is so pro estrogen. He told me it is an excellent especially with non-aromatizing steroids like tren. He went on to say that this is done in cattle and look how they grow or something of the sort. I was so stupified that I didn't even bother to reply. I wonder if he knows its used in female cattle?

yes, in cattle recently they have started adding in estrogen into trenbolone to help the cattle grow faster.  not just female cattle, male cattle too.  if you want to know about the latest in anabolic research when it comes t actuall testing on living subjects, the dairy/beef area is one to watch. they are constantly trying new things with AAS to try to increase feed efficiency.

[tbombz]

Can you provide any evidence to suggest that estrogen is lipolytic?

I bet you didn't know that estrogen is lipolytic too 

ESTROGENIC FAT

By Karl Hoffman

Estrogen makes a person fat, doesn’t it? Well, women do have a higher body fat content in general than do men, especially in the gluteofemoral (hips and buttocks) region. Is estrogen really the cause of this gender dimorphism in adiposity? Probably not. In fact, there are a wealth of data that implicate estrogen as both an anorectic and antiadipogenic hormone. It is much more likely that progesterone is the culprit in supporting higher levels of gluteofemoral fat in women (1). The model described in (1) has progesterone as the lipogenic hormone. Before menopause, both estrodiol and progesterone are secreted by the ovaries. After menopause, estrone becomes the primary circulating estrogen produced from aromatization of adrenal androgens (primarily the aromatization of androstenedione to estrone by adipose tissue), while progesterone levels drop dramatically since adrenal production of progesterone is minimal.

In premenopausal women, progesterone increases lipoprotein lipase activity, which is greater in the gluteofemoral region, while estrogen suppresses it. Lipoprotein lipase is the body’s primary fat storage enzyme; it is responsible for allowing fats to leave the circulation and enter adipocytes. The progesterone wins out however and before menopause, women tend to have more gluteofemoral fat and less abdominal fat.

Why do women have more gluteofemoral fat while men have more central (abdominal) fat? One popular theory is that women hold fat in the gluteofemoral region where it is far removed from the liver and has fewer fat mobilizing enzymes/more fat retaining enzymes than in men. Men hold fat in the visceral and abdominal subcutaneous region where it is closer to the liver and richer in fat mobilizing enzymes. Proximity to the liver is a factor because the portal circulation connects abdominal fat deposits directly to the liver. Free fatty acids released from abdominal deposits can act directly on the liver to promote gluconeogenesis, providing the body with a ready supply of glucose for “fight or flight” situations.

From an adaptational viewpoint, women's fat is designed to be stored until needed for lactation and child rearing. Men's fat on the other hand is designed to be readily mobilized for fight or flight situations during defense and hunting. This theory may be a bit simplistic as well as sexist; but it does make sense to some degree.

Most likely the notion of estrogenic fat originated from the belief that estrogen upregulates alpha 2 receptors in fat cells, retarding lipolysis. This may be just one facet of estrogen’s actions. If one looks at the net result of estrogen’s effects, to quote a leading expert in the field

“Testosterone and GH inhibit LPL and stimulate lipolysis markedly. Oestrogens seem to exert net effects similar to those of testosterone.” (2)

For example, animal studies have shown that testosterone promotes alpha 2 adrenoreceptor mediated antilipolytic activity, just as it promotes beta adrenoreceptor mediated lipolysis.

Interestingly, recent research has even attributed at least part of testosterone's fat burning properties to its local aromatization to estradiol (3). For instance when testosterone is administered along with an aromatase inhibitor, LPL activity increases, showing that the testosterone itself is devoid of any ability to lower LPL. (4)

There are a number of animal studies where estradiol administration led to significant weight and fat loss. Citing just one, for example:

"The administration of 17 beta-estradiol (500 micrograms/kg, 2 or 4 weeks) to male rats significantly reduced the body weight...Basal lipolysis and adrenaline-induced lipolysis [due to increase in HSL action] were also significantly enhanced in the epididymal adipose tissue from the male rat treated either with 7 mg/kg estradiol 12 h ahead or with 500 micrograms/kg estradiol for 2 weeks. These results indicate that estradiol exerts strong effects on metabolism of the adipose and these effects seems to be mediated through cyclic-AMP." (5)

This research indicates that in addition to the abovementioned inhibition of LPL, estrogen also stimulates the lipolytic enzyme hormone sensitive lipase.

Some of the most compelling evidence for the antiadipogenic effect of estrogen in both males and females comes from studies of estrogen receptor knockout mice and humans with aromatase deficiency. Both the afflicted humans and the knockout mice exhibit obesity. A detailed look at this topic can be found here:


I also mentioned that estrogen is a potent hunger-suppressing hormone. Research is a bit sketchier here, but the effect is thought to be due to an estrogen-induced inhibition in melanin-concentrating hormone (MCH) signaling (6). MCH is a neuropeptide found in the hypothalamus that is also thought to be involved in leptin’s regulation of appetite. Leptin, an anorectic hormone secreted from the adipose tissue, acts on the specific receptor present on its target neurons in the brain, and suppresses the expression of both MCH and its receptor. So we see that the actions of both estrogen and leptin are at least partly mediated through interactions with MCH.

I'm not sure about that. Estrogen is actually a lipolytic hormone. Looking at the research it doesn't seem promote fat storage, though it affects the fat storage pattern - where it's stored.

You have to remember, "Estrogen" is actually different compounds with estradiol, estriol, and estrone being the three major compounds. 

Estradiol is the major "estrogen" which is produced by the conversion of testosterone to estrogen.

Estrone is in relatively low abundance, but it occurs from the conversion of androstenedion to estrogen via aromatase.  Estrone is also a relatively long lived hormone, converting to estrone sulfate which will act as a 'reservior" of estrogen. 

Both of these forms of estrogen will be present in bodybuilders taking supplemental anabolics---with the degree present depending on what they are specifically taking.  Estrone is a big factor with people taking prohormones and then thinking they had some magical testosterone hormone effects when in actuality, it was just estrogen that was being produced. 

Estriol is produced by the placenta during pregnancy so it really isn't something that should affect males in any way. 




There are definite fat metabolism effects.  Its progesterone in birth control pills that actually cuases women to gain weight, not the estrogen.  If I remember right, wasn't here a post on this forum about the East German use of anabolic steroids in the female athletes prior to the 1980 olympics?  Those women were all given (If i remember right) higher estrogen birth control pills for metabolic effects---and to control their cycles for maximal physical exertion. 

I was mainly talking about E2, don't remember if the different estrogens had different effects on fat metabolism.

Yes, from my understanding progesterone is lipogenic while estrogens affect fat distribution patterns. Estrogen also has anorectic effects so is there really any advantage to suppressing it when trying to lose bodyfat? Especially trying to eradicate it with high dosages of potent AIs like letrozole?

[tbombz]

also, read this thread, Tom Prince giving a lesson on this subject =

http://www.chadnicholls.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3149


(credit to van bilderass for showing me this one)

[MuscleMcMannus]

You are absolutely correct here MM! I remember once I told tbombz to start supplementing estrogen in his cycles and to watch what happens since he is so pro estrogen. He told me it is an excellent especially with non-aromatizing steroids like tren. He went on to say that this is done in cattle and look how they grow or something of the sort. I was so stupified that I didn't even bother to reply. I wonder if he knows its used in female cattle?

He's really annoying.  He's constantly nip picking everything in everyone's post to sound superior and try to be the board steroid guru.  Fucking annoying if you ask me! 

[4thAD]

He's really annoying.  He's constantly nip picking everything in everyone's post to sound superior and try to be the board steroid guru.  Fucking annoying if you ask me! 

Agreed, but he does try. I have to give him that. If he would just drop the superior attitude people would respect him more!

[tbombz]

He's really annoying.  He's constantly nip picking everything in everyone's post to sound superior and try to be the board steroid guru.  Fucking annoying if you ask me! 

i dont try to annoy you, or anybody (except maybe division). i really dont want a 'guru' status, nor do i want to be superior. i would however like to be helpful and make sure that the information given on the board is accurate, even if its inconsequential.  im not a guru by any standard, thats why you see me quoting and referencing other people. 

I wasnt trying to "nip pick" your post, but what you said didnt make any sense to me..  and i could just imagine somebody reading this board and yoru post then going out and repeating it to somebody who knows what they are talking about, and then that person sounding like a complete idiot for "parroting" inaccurate info from this board. then they are asked "where the fuck did you hear that bullshit".. " oh, i heard it on getbig.com"... and then getbig is "a joke"...thats no good. we should try to keep all the info as accurate as possible. 

[MuscleMcMannus]

i dont try to annoy you, or anybody (except maybe division). i really dont want a 'guru' status, nor do i want to be superior. i would however like to be helpful and make sure that the information given on the board is accurate, even if its inconsequential.  im not a guru by any standard, thats why you see me quoting and referencing other people. 

I wasnt trying to "nip pick" your post, but what you said didnt make any sense to me..  and i could just imagine somebody reading this board and yoru post then going out and repeating it to somebody who knows what they are talking about, and then that person sounding like a complete idiot for "parroting" inaccurate info from this board. then they are asked "where the fuck did you hear that bullshit".. " oh, i heard it on getbig.com"... and then getbig is "a joke"...thats no good. we should try to keep all the info as accurate as possible. 

Nothing I said is "inaccurate".  And trust me nobody is going to go into the detail that you are in any day to day conversation.  What I said makes perfect sense.  Testosterone is both androgenic and anabolic.  Androgens have a tendency to convert to estrogen in supraphysiological doses.  "Estrogen" in simple terms can and will lead to water retention and fat gain.  You are splitting hairs and no one in the real world really cares.  If you think by injecting estradiol you will elicit fat burning results in the male body............well tbombz go ahead and try it...........LOL. 

[tbombz]

Nothing I said is "inaccurate".  And trust me nobody is going to go into the detail that you are in any day to day conversation.  What I said makes perfect sense.  Testosterone is both androgenic and anabolic.  Androgens have a tendency to convert to estrogen in supraphysiological doses.  "Estrogen" in simple terms can and will lead to water retention and fat gain.  You are splitting hairs and no one in the real world really cares.  If you think by injecting estradiol you will elicit fat burning results in the male body............well tbombz go ahead and try it...........LOL. 

ok well thats not what you said. yes andrgoens can convert to estrogen. you said that "androgenic steroids convert to estrogen. and you also claimed that certain steroids gains are "half androgenic and half anabolic". which doesnt make any real sense, muscle is muscle. you claimed that 'androgenic muscle' will belost quickly after cycle while 'anabolic muscle' will stickj better. again, makes no sense and is wrong.  as van said before "its easier to keep 50% of a 1 lb gain than it is to keep 50% of a 20lb gain." 


progesterone causes the fat gain, not estrogens. estrogens help one lose fat, they are "lipolytic".  in fact estrogens suppress appetite, thats what van meant by "anorectic effects".

[MuscleMcMannus]

ok well thats not what you said. yes andrgoens can convert to estrogen. you said that "androgenic steroids convert to estrogen. and you also claimed that certain steroids gains are "half androgenic and half anabolic". which doesnt make any real sense, muscle is muscle. you claimed that 'androgenic muscle' will belost quickly after cycle while 'anabolic muscle' will stickj better. again, makes no sense and is wrong.  as van said before "its easier to keep 50% of a 1 lb gain than it is to keep 50% of a 20lb gain." 


progesterone causes the fat gain, not estrogens. estrogens help one lose fat, they are "lipolytic".  in fact estrogens suppress appetite, thats what van meant by "anorectic effects".

Androgenic side effects i.e. water retention are what makes you feel like you are "blowing up" and getting stronger so quickly.  It's not real muscle growth.  It takes ~ 4-6 weeks for muscle hypertrophy to really ramp up and become maximized.  Hence when you come off and all the water retention goes away you'll be left with any real muscle gains you acquired from the cycle.  That is why gains come slower from highly anabolic compounds like EQ and primo.  Again you are splitting hairs and taking everything I say literally.  Annoying! 

[tbombz]

Androgenic side effects i.e. water retention are what makes you feel like you are "blowing up" and getting stronger so quickly.  It's not real muscle growth.  It takes ~ 4-6 weeks for muscle hypertrophy to really ramp up and become maximized.  Hence when you come off and all the water retention goes away you'll be left with any real muscle gains you acquired from the cycle.  That is why gains come slower from highly anabolic compounds like EQ and primo.  Again you are splitting hairs and taking everything I say literally.  Annoying! 

androgenic side effects = water retention?  no, thats estrogenic side effects. your , again, confusing "androgenic" with "aromatizable".

androgenic side effects are ones that result from the conversion to dht.

androgenic effects are increasing body hair, increasing acne...etc.

[tbombz]

If you think by injecting estradiol you will elicit fat burning results in the male body............well tbombz go ahead and try it...........LOL. 

   

if you would have read what i posted above, the article posted by van bilderass, you would hav seent his =

There are a number of animal studies where estradiol administration led to significant weight and fat loss. Citing just one, for example:

"The administration of 17 beta-estradiol (500 micrograms/kg, 2 or 4 weeks) to male rats significantly reduced the body weight...Basal lipolysis and adrenaline-induced lipolysis [due to increase in HSL action] were also significantly enhanced in the epididymal adipose tissue from the male rat treated either with 7 mg/kg estradiol 12 h ahead or with 500 micrograms/kg estradiol for 2 weeks. These results indicate that estradiol exerts strong effects on metabolism of the adipose and these effects seems to be mediated through cyclic-AMP." (5)

 

[Stavios]

also, read this thread, Tom Prince giving a lesson on this subject =

http://www.chadnicholls.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3149


(credit to van bilderass for showing me this one)

cool thread

so one shouldn't use letro during a prep ?

[tbombz]

cool thread

so one shouldn't use letro during a prep ?

  im not sure. i do know that you will lose fat very quickly without any anti estrogen or anti aromatase. the estrogen helps block appetite and promotes fat burning, as well as raises in GH and IGF 1.


if you do want to use an anti aromatase , check this out =

http://www.afboard.com/forum/anafit-supplement-discussion/869-arimedex-vs-aifm.html

when it comes to this comparison its more about type of estrogen suppression as opposed to "strength". Arimidex is a VERY potent sulfatase inhibitor, which inhibits estrone. It is a moderately strong aromatase inhibitor (weak as compared to aromasin, AIFM or letrozole). This is fine for women with breast cancer who produce percentage wise very high levels of estrone (the weak estrogen), which can be converted to estradiol (the strong estrogen) via aromatase.

For men this is generally not very good, especially for men on TRT since sulfatase inhibitors have very little effect on exogenous testosterone. Actually its generally not a good thing since it nearly completely eliminates estrone, while still allowing estradiol. If you have a choice as a man, you want estrone (weak estrogen) with near total elimination of estradiol (strong). AIFM and aromasin do inhibit sulfatase, though to a lesser extent than the competitive inhibitors (dex and letro). They are both potent aromatase inhibitors and highly suppress estradiol. Since exogenous test converts to estradiol via aromatase, AIFM and aromasin are much better suited.

yes
aromasin is the best product ever made for preventing estrogen related sides with out taking from the gains,,,nolva will take from the gains a little,,so does arimidex,,
aromasin aka extemestane by pfizer 7663 is BY FAR the best product out there,, it dry you out fast,,it bring out the abs out of no where,,especially if you hold water and think you are  10-11% yet cant see abs,,,try aromasin,,i promise you that you wil see 6 pack after 30-60 days at 10%

so the science and the real world experience says that aromasin is the absolute best choice for estrogen control

[4thAD]

I absolutely agree aromasin is the best. Ive been saying that here for years now, and that's why its so good for PCT!

[MuscleMcMannus]

androgenic side effects = water retention?  no, thats estrogenic side effects. your , again, confusing "androgenic" with "aromatizable".

androgenic side effects are ones that result from the conversion to dht.

androgenic effects are increasing body hair, increasing acne...etc.

Damn you are fucking annoying!  ANDROGENS i.e. testosterone is what fucking converts to estrogen in the body dipsiht.  Quit mincing my fucking words!  So yes if you want to be picky about fucking semantics they are estrogenic. 

[tbombz]

Damn you are fucking annoying!  ANDROGENS i.e. testosterone is what fucking converts to estrogen in the body dipsiht.  Quit mincing my fucking words!  So yes if you want to be picky about fucking semantics they are estrogenic. 

well reading your posts what you were saying is that anabolic and androgenic effects are diffferent...which is true the are... but you were giving estrogenic side effects as androgenic side effects.... but as i said before thats not true...androgenic side effects are from dht, not estrogen. 

[shrek]

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