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DKlent
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« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2012, 11:19:09 AM »

There well may be a situation where I would eat human being.  I certainly can't say it would never happen
I'd like to think I would be able to allow myself to starve to death but I can't say for certain
it's very unlikely of course and I would not kill someone to eat them but this is all really irrelevent

what matters is intention and also your personal beliefs.  The historical figure we refer to as Buddha didn't have a problem eating meat as long as the animal wasn't killed for the intention of providing food for monks and didn't have any such rules for lay people.   More esoteric teachings go even further on the subject

What is your deal anyway

Are an ordained monk or do you belong to and practice a particular sect of buddhism

The purpose of this thread seems to be soley to boost your own ego and leture everyone on what they should believe

Oh, it is totally relevant. WHY would you not kill a human and eat them? Would you eat a human hamburger, even if you were not starving?

If no. Why?


Buddha taught never to refuse an offering, however in modern times if you go to the store and buy meat then you are causing animals to die. This is against Buddhism.

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DKlent
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« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2012, 11:47:42 AM »





Dhammapada

Quote
Verse 10: PUNISHMENT

Spoken in the Jetavana Grove concerning the band of six monks:

1. All beings fear punishment; all fear death. If you take yourself as the measure, you will never harm, you will never kill.

2. All beings fear punishment; all love life. If you take yourself as the measure, you will never harm, you will never kill.

3. If in seeking happiness you bring harm to others who also seek to be happy, in the future you will never be happy.

4. If in seeking happiness you never harm others who also seek to be happy, in the future happiness will come to you.

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Straw Man
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« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2012, 06:56:48 PM »

Oh, it is totally relevant. WHY would you not kill a human and eat them? Would you eat a human hamburger, even if you were not starving?

If no. Why?


Buddha taught never to refuse an offering, however in modern times if you go to the store and buy meat then you are causing animals to die. This is against Buddhism.

again, the answer to your questions is intent

how about my questions

Are an ordained monk or do you belong to and practice a particular sect of buddhism

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DKlent
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« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2012, 07:14:21 PM »

again, the answer to your questions is intent

how about my questions

Are an ordained monk or do you belong to and practice a particular sect of buddhism



The answer is "intent"? What do you mean by that? If you buy meat a grocery store or restaurant then that causes the death of a living being and goes against the most important aspect of Buddhism (non-harm). If you, for instance, eat a piece of meat that will be thrown out otherwise and it is either 1. it gets thrown away and wasted or 2. you eat it then that is ok in Buddhism. However, I myself am a vegetarian because it removes any doubt or guess-work with determining if I caused animals death or not.

I am not an ordained monk nor do I belong to a 'sect' of Buddhism. I am a Theravada Buddhist, meaning I practice what the Buddha taught. I base my practices based on what Siddhartha Gautama, The Buddha, taught in the Pāli Canon. The Tipiṭaka , three baskets, Vinaya Pitaka, Sutta Pitaka and the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I practice genuine Buddhism and seek to improve as well. I'm not perfect, nor is anyone, but I KNOW what must be done and agree with what must be done and acknowledge when I do wrong and realize that I need to change specific actions to reach enlightenment.

The problem with Andre is that he disagrees with inherent Buddhist teachings and can not acknowledge that sexual desire goes against the Buddhist philosophy of enlightenment. Now, I have sex too but I admit that sexual desire is a hindrance to enlightenment and thus I know that IF I want to reach enlightenment then that too must be abandoned. That is the difference between him and I. The first step to improvement is to recognize that a problem exists.  If you can't recognize a problem you can't fix the problem.
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2012, 09:57:22 PM »

Ok. Do you intend to become celibate in the future in order to achieve enlightenment?

no..because I do not believe that being celibate for the lay Buddhist is necessary...maybe for Monks because they are supposed to embody the IDEAL of Bhuddism but the average person DOES NOT have to forego sex......just as a priest must forego sex but the average christian does not.....
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2012, 09:59:19 PM »

There well may be a situation where I would eat human being.  I certainly can't say it would never happen
I'd like to think I would be able to allow myself to starve to death but I can't say for certain
it's very unlikely of course and I would not kill someone to eat them but this is all really irrelevent

what matters is intention and also your personal beliefs.  The historical figure we refer to as Buddha didn't have a problem eating meat as long as the animal wasn't killed for the intention of providing food for monks and didn't have any such rules for lay people.   More esoteric teachings go even further on the subject

What is your deal anyway

Are an ordained monk or do you belong to and practice a particular sect of buddhism

The purpose of this thread seems to be soley to boost your own ego and leture everyone on what they should believe



100% agree..and by trying to boost your own ego, then you are not a Buddhist
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2012, 10:06:41 PM »

The answer is "intent"? What do you mean by that? If you buy meat a grocery store or restaurant then that causes the death of a living being and goes against the most important aspect of Buddhism (non-harm). If you, for instance, eat a piece of meat that will be thrown out otherwise and it is either 1. it gets thrown away and wasted or 2. you eat it then that is ok in Buddhism. However, I myself am a vegetarian because it removes any doubt or guess-work with determining if I caused animals death or not.

I am not an ordained monk nor do I belong to a 'sect' of Buddhism. I am a Theravada Buddhist, meaning I practice what the Buddha taught. I base my practices based on what Siddhartha Gautama, The Buddha, taught in the Pāli Canon. The Tipiṭaka , three baskets, Vinaya Pitaka, Sutta Pitaka and the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I practice genuine Buddhism and seek to improve as well. I'm not perfect, nor is anyone, but I KNOW what must be done and agree with what must be done and acknowledge when I do wrong and realize that I need to change specific actions to reach enlightenment.

The problem with Andre is that he disagrees with inherent Buddhist teachings and can not acknowledge that sexual desire goes against the Buddhist philosophy of enlightenment. Now, I have sex too but I admit that sexual desire is a hindrance to enlightenment and thus I know that IF I want to reach enlightenment then that too must be abandoned. That is the difference between him and I. The first step to improvement is to recognize that a problem exists.  If you can't recognize a problem you can't fix the problem.


your point totally misses all the married Buddhists......are they supposed to just stop having sex???....again..I disagree that you can't have sex if you are a Bhuddist...you can..but.....you should not be partaking in sex just for pleasure's sake....you should not be going to prostitutes....or banging every chick you get your hands on....or constantly masturbating....you should try to de-sexualize your life as much as possible..no porn....etc....but I believe Bhuddists can have a healthy sex life...

and you described your girlfriend the same way I did with the persons I have sex with.....I am not attached to them to the point where if they left I would fall apart.....I would move on......you are I are so much alike ..yet you choose to bullshit around
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garebear
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« Reply #107 on: July 15, 2012, 06:34:06 AM »




Dhammapada

Is that a painting or a photograph?

I can't tell because it's just too realistic.

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« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2012, 07:52:02 AM »

no..because I do not believe that being celibate for the lay Buddhist is necessary...maybe for Monks because they are supposed to embody the IDEAL of Bhuddism but the average person DOES NOT have to forego sex......just as a priest must forego sex but the average christian does not.....

lay Buddhists never achieve enlightenment either. Are you aware of that?
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« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2012, 11:20:35 AM »

lay Buddhists never achieve enlightenment either. Are you aware of that?

What happens when a Buddhist achieves enlightenment? 
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syntaxmachine
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« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2012, 12:26:16 PM »

Beliefs are abstracta we ascribe to a person based on their behavior. We do the same thing to ourselves (we look at our own behavior and ascribe beliefs accordingly). Therefore, if you're having sex and willfully desiring the goods and personal goals associated with the rat race that is the Western way of life, you aren't a genuine Buddhist (you admit that these activities are contrary to Buddhism). Your behavior precludes your really believing Buddhism's precepts because if you did you would act (behave) according to what they say.

Consider a drug addict who keeps insisting that he believes a drug-free life is best and that he wants to live that sort of life. Yet, all the while he continues to constantly consume drugs and does nothing to kick the habit. There is no such thing as him "believing" what he says despite acting in exactly the opposite fashion, no matter how much he insists the belief is genuine. If he really believed the drug-free life were best, then he'd do everything in his power to get clean. That's just what it means for him to genuinely believe the words he's saying.

So, you can't have it both ways, pretending to "genuinely" believe the Buddhist precepts that sex and desire are base and thus to be avoided and yet acting contrary to these precepts your whole life. Sorry, that means you don't genuinely believe them. You're trying to have your (admittedly delicious) metaphysical cake and eat it too. What you're calling 'lay Buddhism' is a class of people who talk about Buddhist precepts but don't take them overly serious, i.e., don't genuinely believe them (or, don't act as if they are true).

Now, fulfill your desire to respond to my post and correct me, because you constantly indulge your desires, i.e., don't really believe they are base and to be avoided. Otherwise, you'd be in the Tibetan mountains numbing yourself with meditation all day and being chaste along with the other genuine Buddhists.
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #111 on: July 15, 2012, 02:04:49 PM »

lay Buddhists never achieve enlightenment either. Are you aware of that?

yes...but you know what???....very few persons of ANY religion achieve what the goals of the religion are
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #112 on: July 15, 2012, 02:13:04 PM »

Beliefs are abstracta we ascribe to a person based on their behavior. We do the same thing to ourselves (we look at our own behavior and ascribe beliefs accordingly). Therefore, if you're having sex and willfully desiring the goods and personal goals associated with the rat race that is the Western way of life, you aren't a genuine Buddhist (you admit that these activities are contrary to Buddhism). Your behavior precludes your really believing Buddhism's precepts because if you did you would act (behave) according to what they say.

Consider a drug addict who keeps insisting that he believes a drug-free life is best and that he wants to live that sort of life. Yet, all the while he continues to constantly consume drugs and does nothing to kick the habit. There is no such thing as him "believing" what he says despite acting in exactly the opposite fashion, no matter how much he insists the belief is genuine. If he really believed the drug-free life were best, then he'd do everything in his power to get clean. That's just what it means for him to genuinely believe the words he's saying.

So, you can't have it both ways, pretending to "genuinely" believe the Buddhist precepts that sex and desire are base and thus to be avoided and yet acting contrary to these precepts your whole life. Sorry, that means you don't genuinely believe them. You're trying to have your (admittedly delicious) metaphysical cake and eat it too. What you're calling 'lay Buddhism' is a class of people who talk about Buddhist precepts but don't take them overly serious, i.e., don't genuinely believe them (or, don't act as if they are true).

Now, fulfill your desire to respond to my post and correct me, because you constantly indulge your desires, i.e., don't really believe they are base and to be avoided. Otherwise, you'd be in the Tibetan mountains numbing yourself with meditation all day and being chaste along with the other genuine Buddhists.

I guess this post was meant as a response to me.....so....

by what you are saying, then that means that Catholics who use contraception are not TRUE catholics.....that Catholics who have sex before marriage again are not TRUE Catholics....

Bhuddists are still Bhuddists even if they haven't achieved the goals of the religion as of yet...you are trying to get there...you are on the path (THE WAY) toward enlightenment....you can still call yourself a Bhuddist until you eventually get there......Bhuddism is a step by step one day at a time process.....where you try to become better day by day......

again by the reasoning I see on this board you are not a Bhuddist UNTIL you reach enlightenment....if that is the case, then again DKent has contradicted himself..he is NOT a true Bhuddist because he STILL has sex with his girlfriend...yet he calls everyone else a non-Buddhist because they do the same thing that HE does!!!!....this is the worst hypocrisy I have ever seen on getbig......
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Butterbean
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« Reply #113 on: July 15, 2012, 02:35:58 PM »

I get over 200 grams of protein per day. I drink whey shakes but only from certain sources. Even if I were a vegan I'd still get enough protein.

I eat non-soy protein bars (Vegan) that have 20 grams of protein each and vitamins. I eat about 2 a day.

I eat about 3 Peanut Butter (or almond butter) jelly sandwiches a day. I use enough peanut butter to get over 20 grams of protein per sandwich with the bread and preserves.

I eat a lot of high-protein grains.

Plus I supplement with 2 whey-shakes per day. Each one has about 30 grams of protein per serving (not including the milk).

I always eat a few servings of fruits or vegetables each day Also.

Whole grains and whole wheat are important in my diet, as are high-protein beans and legumes.



I'm in a relationship. My girlfriend is not a Buddhist. I am no more attached to her than I am to myself.

Thanks.  What is the name of the Vegan non-soy bar and does it have decent fiber?

Does it bother your girl that you don't seem attached to her (if that is what you meant)? 
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« Reply #114 on: July 15, 2012, 02:38:04 PM »

no..because I do not believe that being celibate for the lay Buddhist is necessary...maybe for Monks because they are supposed to embody the IDEAL of Bhuddism but the average person DOES NOT have to forego sex......just as a priest must forego sex but the average christian does not.....

Just to interject kind of off topic, but the Christian Bible does not preach against using contraception...that is a Catholic thing. 

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syntaxmachine
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« Reply #115 on: July 15, 2012, 06:45:09 PM »

I guess this post was meant as a response to me.....so....

by what you are saying, then that means that Catholics who use contraception are not TRUE catholics.....that Catholics who have sex before marriage again are not TRUE Catholics....

Bhuddists are still Bhuddists even if they haven't achieved the goals of the religion as of yet...you are trying to get there...you are on the path (THE WAY) toward enlightenment....you can still call yourself a Bhuddist until you eventually get there......Bhuddism is a step by step one day at a time process.....where you try to become better day by day......

again by the reasoning I see on this board you are not a Bhuddist UNTIL you reach enlightenment....if that is the case, then again DKent has contradicted himself..he is NOT a true Bhuddist because he STILL has sex with his girlfriend...yet he calls everyone else a non-Buddhist because they do the same thing that HE does!!!!....this is the worst hypocrisy I have ever seen on getbig......

Actually, I was addressing DKlent, though it seems my comments apply to you as well. They apply to the both of you because you are both acting contrary to your stated beliefs. You don't need to reach Enlightenment to be a Buddhist; you need to legitimately move toward Enlightenment through the appropriate behaviors. And neither you nor Dicklint (lol, I couldn't resist) are doing this to the extent that you are unable to divorce yourself from base desire fulfillment, something at the heart of Western life. Therefore, you don't really believe the fundamental precept of Buddhism, and as such are not Buddhists.

You're right to point out that on my view, there aren't as many religious people as public opinion polls indicate. As an example, on my view there are a lot of people who say they are Christian but otherwise don't act according to the precepts of the religion, and therefore don't really believe them. There are a lot of confused people who think they are religious and respond accordingly to pollsters, but that is another story. We can be mistaken about our own beliefs.
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #116 on: July 15, 2012, 07:21:52 PM »

read this.....this pretty much backs up my own interpretation of Buddhism and especially about the sexual aspect of Buddhism.

Sexual activity, like eating, can be motivated by a disturbing emotion or attitude, a constructive one, or a neutral one. Based on the motivation, the act of having sex or eating likewise becomes destructive, constructive, or neutral. For instance, if we eat out of tremendous greed and attachment - just stuff ourselves like a pig - it's self-destructive. If we eat because we need to be strong in order to take care of our families - in order to have the strength and energy to work, and so on - that's a positive motivation; the eating is constructive. If we eat just because it's time to eat and everybody else is eating, it's ethically neutral.

The same thing is true with sex. If we have sex because we have tremendous attachment and desire, or because of anger like when soldiers rape their enemy's wives and daughters, it's destructive. If we're having sex in order to show affection and help somebody - an appropriate person - with the hope that this will make the person feel a little better, it's constructive. If we have sex just because we can't fall asleep and it'll make us tired so that we can fall asleep faster, then it's neutral.

The result of what we experience from the same act is different according to the motivation. "Destructive" means that it's going to produce problems for us in the future. For most people, the negative motivation for sex that would make it destructive and cause problems for them in the future is usually attachment and longing desire. What we need to work on, in the context of renunciation, is not the sexual act itself, but rather this attachment and longing desire.

Let's give an example. Suppose we are looking for the perfect orgasm. Such a quest causes us always to be dissatisfied with the sexual experience that we have. We're always looking for a better one. We're always longing for something more, and can never really enjoy what we have. Such an attitude makes us frustrated and miserable. It leads to never having a satisfying sexual experience.

The same is the case if we're always looking for the perfect sexual partner. We're never going to find the perfect partner. We're always going to be dissatisfied; our attitude is always going to make us unhappy. Sexual activity driven by these types of attitudes is destructive - it's self-destructive. When we talk about destructive, it's always self-destructive.

So that's what we have to renounce - the myth of a perfect partner and a perfect orgasm, and the longing desire that this myth generates. Our longing desire is based on the naive confusion of "somewhere out there is going to be the perfect partner with whom I will have the perfect orgasm." That's a myth. It's a child's fairy tale. It's never going to happen. Sorry.


http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/approaching_buddhism/world_today/introduction_buddhist_sexual_ethics.html
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DKlent
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« Reply #117 on: July 15, 2012, 08:41:10 PM »

What happens when a Buddhist achieves enlightenment? 

That is a hard question to answer and takes a while. See my previous posts on what enlightenment is. It is the same answer.
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DKlent
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« Reply #118 on: July 15, 2012, 08:45:06 PM »

Beliefs are abstracta we ascribe to a person based on their behavior. We do the same thing to ourselves (we look at our own behavior and ascribe beliefs accordingly). Therefore, if you're having sex and willfully desiring the goods and personal goals associated with the rat race that is the Western way of life, you aren't a genuine Buddhist (you admit that these activities are contrary to Buddhism). Your behavior precludes your really believing Buddhism's precepts because if you did you would act (behave) according to what they say.

Consider a drug addict who keeps insisting that he believes a drug-free life is best and that he wants to live that sort of life. Yet, all the while he continues to constantly consume drugs and does nothing to kick the habit. There is no such thing as him "believing" what he says despite acting in exactly the opposite fashion, no matter how much he insists the belief is genuine. If he really believed the drug-free life were best, then he'd do everything in his power to get clean. That's just what it means for him to genuinely believe the words he's saying.

So, you can't have it both ways, pretending to "genuinely" believe the Buddhist precepts that sex and desire are base and thus to be avoided and yet acting contrary to these precepts your whole life. Sorry, that means you don't genuinely believe them. You're trying to have your (admittedly delicious) metaphysical cake and eat it too. What you're calling 'lay Buddhism' is a class of people who talk about Buddhist precepts but don't take them overly serious, i.e., don't genuinely believe them (or, don't act as if they are true).

Now, fulfill your desire to respond to my post and correct me, because you constantly indulge your desires, i.e., don't really believe they are base and to be avoided. Otherwise, you'd be in the Tibetan mountains numbing yourself with meditation all day and being chaste along with the other genuine Buddhists.

This is not true though. What you are claiming is that if someone believes something, they will act accordingly all of the time. It doesn't work like that. 99% of people believe that exercise is good for you, that going to the gym every day is ideal...but what % do it? Very few.
Same thing with eating healthy. 100% of people agree that eating healthy is good, healthy and ideal. Most people strive to eat healthy.
What % of people actually eat healthy? Very few. Does this mean that they don't believe that eating healthy or exercising is good? No. It just means that they don't have what it takes, yet, to do that. Many people take things slowly and move into exercising and eating healthy, but for a long time may not do so. Doesn't imply they don't believe.
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DKlent
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« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2012, 08:54:42 PM »

yes...but you know what???....very few persons of ANY religion achieve what the goals of the religion are


Is someone who claims to be a Christian, yet opposes the most important of Jesus' teachings, still a Christian?

Is a Muslim who opposes the Koran still a Muslim?

Is a Mormon who opposes the book of Mormon still a Mormon?


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DKlent
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« Reply #120 on: July 15, 2012, 08:58:58 PM »


Bhuddists are still Bhuddists even if they haven't achieved the goals of the religion as of yet...you are trying to get there...you are on the path (THE WAY) toward enlightenment....you can still call yourself a Bhuddist until you eventually get there......Bhuddism is a step by step one day at a time process.....where you try to become better day by day......

again by the reasoning I see on this board you are not a Bhuddist UNTIL you reach enlightenment....if that is the case, then again DKent has contradicted himself..he is NOT a true Bhuddist because he STILL has sex with his girlfriend...yet he calls everyone else a non-Buddhist because they do the same thing that HE does!!!!....this is the worst hypocrisy I have ever seen on getbig......

You are backtracking and you are confused. First you told me that you don't believe that abstinence is necessary for enlightenment or even a goal.

Now you're saying that abstinence is a goal but you just haven't achieved it yet.

So which is it?

I never said that you aren't a Buddhist unless you reach enlightenment. I said that the goal in Buddhism is enlightenment, and if you don't follow Buddhist principles then you won't achieve enlightenment.  If you disagree with basic Buddhist teachings, you aren't a Buddhist.
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DKlent
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« Reply #121 on: July 15, 2012, 09:08:06 PM »

Thanks.  What is the name of the Vegan non-soy bar and does it have decent fiber?

Does it bother your girl that you don't seem attached to her (if that is what you meant)? 

I eat Clif Builder bars. They are produced in factories that produce milk, but are vegan and soy based.




Attachment is a term used in Buddhism (Upādāna) which means "clinging" or "grasping" which is the result of clinging to sensual pleasures, wrong-views (like the view that abstienence is pointless or that eating meat is acceptable), rites and rituals (chanting, ceremonies, etc.) and also personal beliefs (attavadupadana, which is the belief that you exist as an independent self which isn't true).  Loving someone else is not Upādāna. An important goal in Buddhism is love and loving-kindness (Meta).

Clinging (Upādāna) and also Thirst/hunger (in a metaphorical sense) ( tṛṣṇā ) cause suffering.
If you have someone in your life that you love, this does not necessitate "clinging" or Upādāna.
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #122 on: July 15, 2012, 09:09:34 PM »

You are backtracking and you are confused. First you told me that you don't believe that abstinence is necessary for enlightenment or even a goal.

Now you're saying that abstinence is a goal but you just haven't achieved it yet.

So which is it?

I never said that you aren't a Buddhist unless you reach enlightenment. I said that the goal in Buddhism is enlightenment, and if you don't follow Buddhist principles then you won't achieve enlightenment.  If you disagree with basic Buddhist teachings, you aren't a Buddhist.

you keep going in circles out of self-protection....so I will just ask you straight on.....

YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN RE-INCARNATION AND YOU STILL ARE HAVING SEX....WHICH MEANS YOU DO NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS EITHER....ARE YOU A BUDDHIST?HuhHuh

DO NOT TALK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE...ANSWER MY DIRECT QUESTION DIRECTLY
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DKlent
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« Reply #123 on: July 15, 2012, 09:37:40 PM »

you keep going in circles out of self-protection....so I will just ask you straight on.....

YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN RE-INCARNATION AND YOU STILL ARE HAVING SEX....WHICH MEANS YOU DO NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS EITHER....ARE YOU A BUDDHIST?HuhHuh

DO NOT TALK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE...ANSWER MY DIRECT QUESTION DIRECTLY

I've explained this several times, and the only reason I'm going in circles is because you aren't reading (or aren't understanding) my posts and keep asking the same questions that I've already answered 5 times.

After this time, I'll just ignore the question because I've answered it already. Please pay attention because this is the last time I'll answer it:


1. I do not believe in reincarnation as you understand reincarnation. I believe in reincarnation in a non-supernatural sense but a casual sense (causality). Reincarnation is not, even in classical texts, a 'continuation of consciousness' as westerners might imagine it being. Imagine a flame that is burning bright. That flame will go out and will be extinguished in time. However, that flame can cause another flame to burn which can cause another flame to burn and so on forever. This is the same concept as reincarnation. In Buddhism it isn't "I will be born as an Ox" because in Buddhism there IS no "I". There is no "self" because that is an illusion.

2. I have sex right now. My goal is to be abstinent in the future. I'm not at the level of mental attainment to be able to abandon many of the habits in my life that are not conducive to enlightenment....YET. I (unlike you) acknowledge that abstinence is the goal if enlightenment is the goal. That is the difference between you and I and that is what I've been saying over and over again.


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syntaxmachine
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« Reply #124 on: July 15, 2012, 10:38:21 PM »

This is not true though. What you are claiming is that if someone believes something, they will act accordingly all of the time. It doesn't work like that. 99% of people believe that exercise is good for you, that going to the gym every day is ideal...but what % do it? Very few.
Same thing with eating healthy. 100% of people agree that eating healthy is good, healthy and ideal. Most people strive to eat healthy.
What % of people actually eat healthy? Very few. Does this mean that they don't believe that eating healthy or exercising is good? No. It just means that they don't have what it takes, yet, to do that. Many people take things slowly and move into exercising and eating healthy, but for a long time may not do so. Doesn't imply they don't believe.

We apparently disagree about the nature of what a belief is. I think beliefs are posited to explain behavior and therefore cannot be divorced from it. Thus, there isn't really any such thing as believing X and yet acting exactly as if X is false. Treating a proposition as true (believing it) just means behaving as if it is true. If you believe the building you're in is on fire then you'll get the heck out of there; if you say "Yes, I believe it!" yet remain then we know you don't really believe it (assuming no suicidal tendencies or any other mental problems on your part).

1. A person doesn't necessarily have to act according to a belief one hundred percent of the time in order to genuinely believe it; there can be slip ups and set backs. We're really talking about general patterns of behavior rather than strict, 24/7 adherence.

2. The beliefs you focus on don't refute my point because the behavior you describe is perfectly consistent with those beliefs. A person can believe working out is healthy and not work out because they are engaging in some sort of trade-off, willfully being lazy because it satisfies some psychological need. As another example, a person can have true beliefs about the dangers of smoking and yet do it anyway, again because they are willfully engaging in a trade-off. The behavior you mention is only inconsistent with certain other beliefs, like "I love working out," "I am striving to be as healthy as I can be," and so forth. If anybody who rarely works out thinks they have these beliefs then they are sorely mistaken, because their behavior is entirely inconsistent with them.

3. So, patterns of behavior that are inconsistent with a stated belief indicate that that belief is not genuinely held by a person, regardless of what the person says (a person can be mistaken about what they believe). This is especially so when the pattern of behavior obtains over a person's entire lifetime. A pattern of attachment and base desire fulfillment seems to me inconsistent with the beliefs of Buddhism; therefore, anybody actively living this way isn't a Buddhist. They may say they believe in them; they may think they believe in them; they may be sympathetic to them; they may even occasionally gesture toward their being true; but, on the whole they don't actually believe them, because that's not how belief works.

What definition of belief are you working with that allows a person (in principle) to genuinely believe X and yet behave entirely as if X is false? What kind of belief is that?
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