Customer At Internet Cafe Shoots 2 Robbers

[enhancer]

was that old dude the shooter know as clint eastwood<?took ages gettin the bullet out.

[bradistani]

One thing that tells me that I'm doing something right at least is that I've been called pretty much every dirty word in the book, except for a troll. If I was consciously trolling I'd say I've done a damn good job at it

You know what, I'm having trouble finding examples of that myself. There are two explanations for that, that I can think of:

1) Such statistics and examples are really hard to find because it's such a rare event. A majority of robberies take place without the victim putting up any significant resistance(like numero el uno). It's a pretty long sequence of events that have to take place in for such an event to occur. Even if they do happen occasionally the number/statistics might be buried somewhere on a obscure government website and I haven't done enough googling to find them. One thing we can do to get closer to the truth is to compare various crime statistics between Florida and Norway and see if victims seem to stand a larger chance of survival in Florida's case for example. It wouldn't be totally scientific research by any stretch of the imagination but could at least provide a hint.

2) I'm completely wrong. I'll admit I'm fallible(just like everyone else here) but to convince myself of that I'd like to see some real evidence, perhaps from 1).

you're getting a bit of a kicking here aren't ya, mate ! 

don't worry.. your argument is more than valid..

the old fella, though brave, was fortunate that only one of them was armed. i'm willing to bet that he had absolutely no idea if the second scumbag had a gun or not.

i suspect that if he (the second robber) was armed, the old gadgy would been non the wiser and still gone in gun blazing and we'd probably be talking about a body count now instead

[OTHstrong]

One thing that tells me that I'm doing something right at least is that I've been called pretty much every dirty word in the book, except for a troll. If I was consciously trolling I'd say I've done a damn good job at it

You know what, I'm having trouble finding examples of that myself. There are two possible explanations for that, that I can think of:

1) Such statistics and examples are really hard to find because it's such a rare event. A majority of robberies take place without the victim putting up any significant resistance(like numero el uno). It's a pretty long sequence of events that have to take place in for such an event to occur. Even if they do happen occasionally the number/statistics might be buried somewhere on an obscure government website and I haven't done enough googling to find them. One thing we can do to get closer to the truth is to compare various crime statistics between Florida and Norway and see if victims seem to stand a larger chance of survival in Florida's case for example. It wouldn't be totally scientific research by any stretch of the imagination but could at least provide a hint.

2) I'm completely wrong. I'll admit I'm fallible(just like everyone else here) but to convince myself of that I'd like to see some real evidence, perhaps from 1).

The combination of this^^^ and Stella's post below

Years ago a friend's girlfriend was in a store w/her friend and 2 guys came in and robbed it, ordered them and an employee to lie on the floor and shot them each in the back of the head. 

Executed them. 

It was then that I decided if something like that happened I would fight...although we never know what we would do until actually in that situation.  Hope we never have to find out.

Is enough to conclude that it isn't any riskier to attack the criminals then it is to just submit and let the chips fall where they may.

[Agnostic007]

It's obviously up to each person to make that decision when it comes. I can invision times when I would not react with violence to address the threat based on the individual circumstances, and times when I would feel it is the best course of action.  For me, it will be an "I'll know it when I see it" situation

[Shockwave]

It's obviously up to each person to make that decision when it comes. I can invision times when I would not react with violence to address the threat based on the individual circumstances, and times when I would feel it is the best course of action.  For me, it will be an "I'll know it when I see it" situation

x2, assess the situation, use good judgement, escalation of force, all that good shit.

The United States Marine Corps' "Continuum of Force" (found in MCRP 3-02B) documents the stages of Conflict escalation in combat for a typical subject. They are:
Level 1: Compliant (Cooperative).
The subject responds to and obeys verbal commands. He refrains from close combat.
Level 2: Resistant (Passive).
The subject resists verbal commands but complies to commands immediately upon contact controls. He refrains from close combat.
Level 3: Resistant (Active).
Initially, the subject physically resists commands, but he can be made to comply by compliance techniques; these include come-along holds, soft-handed stunning blows, and techniques inducing pain by joint manipulation and pressure points.
Level 4: Assaultive (Bodily Harm).
The unarmed subject physically attacks his opponent. He can be controlled by certain defensive tactics, including blocks, strikes, kicks, enhanced pain compliance procedures, impact weapon blocks and blows.
Level 5: Assaultive (Lethal Force).
The subject has a weapon and will likely kill or injure someone unless controlled. This is only possible by lethal force, which possibly requires firearms or weapons.

[Agnostic007]

x2, assess the situation, use good judgement, escalation of force, all that good shit.

The United States Marine Corps' "Continuum of Force" (found in MCRP 3-02B) documents the stages of Conflict escalation in combat for a typical subject. They are:
Level 1: Compliant (Cooperative).
The subject responds to and obeys verbal commands. He refrains from close combat.
Level 2: Resistant (Passive).
The subject resists verbal commands but complies to commands immediately upon contact controls. He refrains from close combat.
Level 3: Resistant (Active).
Initially, the subject physically resists commands, but he can be made to comply by compliance techniques; these include come-along holds, soft-handed stunning blows, and techniques inducing pain by joint manipulation and pressure points.
Level 4: Assaultive (Bodily Harm).
The unarmed subject physically attacks his opponent. He can be controlled by certain defensive tactics, including blocks, strikes, kicks, enhanced pain compliance procedures, impact weapon blocks and blows.
Level 5: Assaultive (Lethal Force).
The subject has a weapon and will likely kill or injure someone unless controlled. This is only possible by lethal force, which possibly requires firearms or weapons.

almost exactly what the police force teaches

[lovemonkey]

The combination of this^^^ and Stella's post below
Is enough to conclude that it isn't any riskier to attack the criminals then it is to just submit and let the chips fall where they may.

I could see how that might be enough to persuade or influence you but it's by no means conclusive or definitive. What you're basing your decision on is merely a quote of me yapping and Stella's anecdote(although tragic, it is fortunately not typical).

[lovemonkey]

x2, assess the situation, use good judgement, escalation of force, all that good shit.

The United States Marine Corps' "Continuum of Force" (found in MCRP 3-02B) documents the stages of Conflict escalation in combat for a typical subject. They are:
Level 1: Compliant (Cooperative).
The subject responds to and obeys verbal commands. He refrains from close combat.
Level 2: Resistant (Passive).
The subject resists verbal commands but complies to commands immediately upon contact controls. He refrains from close combat.
Level 3: Resistant (Active).
Initially, the subject physically resists commands, but he can be made to comply by compliance techniques; these include come-along holds, soft-handed stunning blows, and techniques inducing pain by joint manipulation and pressure points.
Level 4: Assaultive (Bodily Harm).
The unarmed subject physically attacks his opponent. He can be controlled by certain defensive tactics, including blocks, strikes, kicks, enhanced pain compliance procedures, impact weapon blocks and blows.
Level 5: Assaultive (Lethal Force).
The subject has a weapon and will likely kill or injure someone unless controlled. This is only possible by lethal force, which possibly requires firearms or weapons.

Isn't it funny that after this heated discussion and poo flinging we're all pretty much on the same page 
A lot of assumptions have been made by both sides.

That list you posted makes a lot of sense but my only question mark would be this part:

The subject has a weapon and will likely kill or injure someone unless controlled

How does one go about making that call? A lot of robbers wave their guns all over the place but don't even end up hurting a fly. Perhaps someone with a military background can fill in the blanks here?

[Shockwave]

Isn't it funny that after this heated discussion and poo flinging we're all pretty much on the same page  
A lot of assumptions have been made by both sides.

That list you posted makes a lot of sense but my only question mark would be this part:

How does one go about making that call? A lot of robbers wave their guns all over the place but don't even end up hurting a fly. Perhaps someone with a military background can fill in the blanks here?

I have a military background dingus.
Its generally up to your judgement (or the judgement of your superiors), if you feel the person has the possibility of using deadly force, thats what you go on.
And if someone is telling everyone not to move or they're getting shot - guess what - you respond with deadly force.

[lovemonkey]

I have a military background dingus.

Well then, would you mind filling in the blanks?

[Shockwave]

Well then, would you mind filling in the blanks?

(Very) Generally speaking, if someone has a firearm and appears threatening, you kill them. Agnostic would probably be better seeing as how he is LE, and I was military.

[lovemonkey]

(Very) Generally speaking, if someone has a firearm and appears threatening, you kill them. Agnostic would probably be better seeing as how he is LE, and I was military.

That makes sense too but it's also precisely why I'd be so hesitant to do anything drastic. As you said, the guidelines are very general. It's so easy to misjudge and fuck things up in a situation like that. I would not feel confident pulling a gun unless I had some really extensive training(as in years of being a cop or military) and I'm able to read the situation really well. If I screw up in a situation like that and people get hurt because of it I'm fully responsible for it.

Even cops screw up, though. Not too long ago and not too far from where I currently live there was a robbery at a jewelry store and when the cops arrived at the scene the robbers had fled into a gym full of people. Apparently one of the robbers was carrying a pistol and all of the sudden 15-16 shots were fired.
Turns out that the robber was holding a flare gun and the cop had freaked out and emptied his entire clip into a gym full of innocent bystanders... thank goodness no one was hit. The cop is now under criminal investigation and I'd say rightly so. A lot of people could have died thanks to him. The shots were fired through a slightly tinted window so getting a really good aim must've been really difficult.

[Shockwave]

That makes sense too but it's also precisely why I'd be so hesitant to do anything drastic. As you said, the guidelines are very general. It's so easy to misjudge and fuck things up in a situation like that. I would not feel confident pulling a gun unless I had some really extensive training(as in years of being a cop or military) and I'm able to read the situation really well. If I screw up in a situation like that and people get hurt because of it I'm fully responsible for it.

Even cops screw up, though. Not too long ago and not too far from where I currently live there was a robbery at a jewelry store and when the cops arrived at the scene the robbers had fled into a gym full of people. Apparently one of the robbers was carrying a pistol and all of the sudden 15-16 shots were fired.
Turns out that the robber was holding a flare gun and the cop had freaked out and emptied his entire clip into a gym full of innocent bystanders... thank goodness no one was hit. The cop is now under criminal investigation and I'd say rightly so. A lot of people could have died thanks to him. The shots were fired through a slightly tinted window so getting a really good aim must've been really difficult.

Freaked out? That is the problem right there, you have to remain calm and assess the situation without letting your emotions come into play. And he should never have blind fired into a tinted window.
Dude made many mistakes it sounds like.

Part of it is waiting for the right opportunity. Obviously if someone has a gun pointed to your head youre not going to try and draw your pistol.

Thats what the old man did right in the vid - rightfully assessed the bigger threat (only one had a firearm), waited for the targets attention to be elsewhere, engaged target one, once it appeared he was out of the fight, move on to target two.

[enhancer]

if you have a  problem and no 1 else can help..then you can call .....the a team.shut up fool aint gettin on no plane.well done to gramps on that situation.cops and robbers

[BigCyp]

if you have a  problem and no 1 else can help..then you can call .....the a team.shut up fool aint gettin on no plane.well done to gramps on that situation.cops and robbers

Thanks I will remeber that.

[Agnostic007]

Haven't read the report, so all I can offer on the ancedotal cop freaked out story is... If after 15 shots, not one innocent bystander in a gym full of people was hit, I'd say it probably wasn't as outrageous as the story describes, but again, wasn't there.

I concur with YOUR personal decision to not get involved. The last thing I want in a volatile situation where a thug is armed with a gun is someone who isn't sure what to do, isn't aware of the risks, has no training or experience, to feel they have to do SOMETHING and then get someone, most likely themselves, seriously hurt or killed. Disgregard that statement if we are on a hijacked plane with terrorist, but for your "typical" robbery scenario, yeah, unless shots are being fired by the suspect, remain calm, make a note of clothing, description, distinguishing marks or tattoos for later. Be a good witness in other words. 

   

[daddy8ball]

Too bad this guy wasn't at the Batman premeire.

[Agnostic007]

Too bad this guy wasn't at the Batman premeire.

This guy had been asleep 5 hrs by then..

[BIG AL MCKECHNIE]

Watchin that old guy spring into action with his gun reminded me of The Major in Fawlty towers getting his shotgun to shoot a rat he has seen in the bar.
Basil Fawlty thinks he is looking for Germans, especially when The Major describes his target as "Vermin".
 

[Ropo]

wow just great, a situation that had a low to moderate chance of shots being fired now turned into people getting potentially lethally injured and exposing innocent bystanders to the same risk.

Hey you stupid fuck. Watch the clip again and see how carefully and calm this old geek is while he makes new holes in to those fuckers. There is no panic, he is aiming and shooting calmly while those fuckers are in panic because their flesh feels the shots. When coward like that feels bullets hitting in his body, he runs without shooting back, because he is scared stiff and his muscles doesn't obey any other commands. Old geek has discipline, those wankers have guns but no discipline, so that old geek can empty his gun with no hurry while those assholes can only run and shit on themselves.

[lovemonkey]

The timing of this thread is absolutely impeccable.

Just last night I was out having fun with my friends and as we walk past a square some dudes in the distance yell out some chant for their favorite soccer team and I jokingly(or so I thought) yell out the chant for the competing team/club and one of the guys almost runs up to me and wants to fight. I definitely got the impression that he'd done it lots of times before, as he was most likely a soccer hooligan. Me having no interest in fighting some random dude on the streets calmly tried to explain that I wasn't there to fight and immediately he started pushing me. Good thing I was about 4 inches taller and had a weight advantage of about perhaps 30 lbs so it didn't affect me much but I started backing off and repeatedly saying that I have no interest in a fight. His buddy kept saying things that were supposed to aggravate both me and the attacker. He pushed me a couple of more times but then he finally backed off. Had I said one wrong word I'd probably be typing this with a black eye and some serious bruises, if not worse.

Moral of the story? This time being a total bitch saved MY day at least, although I was sorely tempted to let out my inner cave man and duke it out with that prick. I'm not the biggest fan of guns but I'm definitely gonna look into some sort of self defense, whether that'd be fighting classes or pepper spray or both. Next time someone approaches me like that, he won't get closer than a couple of feet that's for damn sure.

[The True Adonis]

The timing of this thread is absolutely impeccable.

Just last night I was out having fun with my friends and as we walk past a square some dudes in the distance yell out some chant for their favorite soccer team and I jokingly(or so I thought) yell out the chant for the competing team/club and one of the guys almost runs up to me and wants to fight. I definitely got the impression that he'd done it lots of times before, as he was most likely a soccer hooligan. Me having no interest in fighting some random dude on the streets calmly tried to explain that I wasn't there to fight and immediately he started pushing me. Good thing I was about 4 inches taller and had a weight advantage of about perhaps 30 lbs so it didn't affect me much but I started backing off and repeatedly saying that I have no interest in a fight. His buddy kept saying things that were supposed to aggravate both me and the attacker. He pushed me a couple of more times but then he finally backed off. Had I said one wrong word I'd probably be typing this with a black eye and some serious bruises, if not worse.

Moral of the story? This time being a total bitch saved MY day at least, although I was sorely tempted to let out my inner cave man and duke it out with that prick. I'm not the biggest fan of guns but I'm definitely gonna look into some sort of self defense, whether that'd be fighting classes or pepper spray or both. Next time someone approaches me like that, he won't get closer than a couple of feet that's for damn sure.

It only takes a second to flash an Iron and when you do, people will tend to not stick around.

[Shockwave]

It only takes a second to flash an Iron and when you do, people will tend to not stick around.

If I have to reveal my firearm, Im shooting someone. I wouldnt show that Im armed until its beyond the point of no return.

[The True Adonis]

If I have to reveal my firearm, Im shooting someone. I wouldnt show that Im armed until its beyond the point of no return.

If someone pushes you aggressively several times, I`d say its time to get it out.

[Shockwave]

If someone pushes you aggressively several times, I`d say its time to get it out.

It'd depend on whether he was armed, whether I could control/subdue him by hand, and whether I felt like my life was in danger.