The bible and the trinity (or lack of it)

[avxo]

Jesus' own words work against you.

You know that saying about people in glass houses? How does it go again?

[a_ahmed]

[Man of Steel]

So ahmed, this guy in the video starts by saying he doesn't personally believe God became man and that he's researched the topic in order to believe as such.

Then he asks whether viewers belief Christ was also his own messiah/annointed one, high priest, mediator, prophet and son and then reads scripture defending each of those positions.  He then says he believes this is "truly ridiculous" and then concludes by asking viewers to provide via scripture (and only scripture) verses that defend that Christ was his own messiah/annointed one, high priest, mediator, prophet and son.  

That said......huh??  

[Griffith]

Mohammed was just a warmonger, caravan thief and mass murderer who made up the Koran and told a primitive desert people whatever they wanted to hear so he could gain personal power.

As if the God of the Universe and all creation would be so perverted and shallow as to give a dead man a whole bunch of virgins when he dies...

If there is an afterlife you'd think we would at least have ascended to a better level where these types of petty perversions are irrelevant.

I have to say this here because Muslims around the world right now are showing what a plague to the human race they are.
Some might be offended, but the logic of thousands upon thousands of protesting people to a pathetic video on the internet and then targeting and killing anyone from that nationality or who is even just white shows a pathetic and primitive mentality not compatible with modern civilisation.

I would live quite happy if I never have to see a Muslim/Moslem/Muhammeden in my life again.

[a_ahmed]

So ahmed, this guy in the video starts by saying he doesn't personally believe God became man and that he's researched the topic in order to believe as such.

Then he asks whether viewers belief Christ was also his own messiah/annointed one, high priest, mediator, prophet and son and then reads scripture defending each of those positions.  He then says he believes this is "truly ridiculous" and then concludes by asking viewers to provide via scripture (and only scripture) verses that defend that Christ was his own messiah/annointed one, high priest, mediator, prophet and son.  

That said......huh??  

It's in the same way I was showing you. That God and Jesus are not the same 'person'. Unless you are to by modern standards claim God is bipolar. Remember the verses about "Not my will, but your will", and the prayer where Jesus prays to God? Etc... etc... Or that no one knows not 'even the son' but only 'the father in heaven' about the hour (end times/judgment day). The last which illustrates Jesus did not have unlimited knowledge, but God does.



It is to illustrate that jesus was called all those things. Then how can he be God or all those things 'to himself'.

The reality is... the trinity came after Jesus. Otherwise Jesus would have proclaimed "Hear oh israel your God is a triune God". Instead he said "Hear oh israel your god is one" Just like as we muslims say today in our proclamation of faith. There is no deity but God.

[avxo]

Just like as we muslims say today in our proclamation of faith. There is no deity but God.

Saying it won't make it so

[a_ahmed]

Saying it won't make it so

You know, I decided I won't believe in you. You are not real. You are just a figment of my imagination, probably a bot on a computer network. Kind of pointless to talk to a computer.

[avxo]

You know, I decided I won't believe in you. You are not real. You are just a figment of my imagination, probably a bot on a computer network. Kind of pointless to talk to a computer.

It's a good thing I don't have feelings (that upgrade is coming in 2014) or I'd be really hurt right now!

[OTHstrong]

I just finishing reading the Koran from front to back and I really don't understand how Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of God.

All major prophets according to Islam are equal and Mohammad is the last prophet, I can accept all this reasoning, I don't agree with it but I can understand where you guys are coming from

Now what boggles my mind is how a Muslim can believe Jesus had a biological mother but was NOT conceived by a biological father, in other words he was born of a virgin women, a clear dramatic distinction from the other prophets, yes all of them including Muhammad. This is more then valid proof that Jesus was in fact the son of God, how you would come up with any other conclusion is beyond me.

And don't bring up Adam and Eve cause they didn't have a mother or a father, big difference from having only a mother.

[avxo]

I just finishing reading the Koran from front to back and I really don't understand how Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of God.

Very simply - the same way you believe that he is.

Now what boggles my mind is how a Muslim can believe Jesus had a biological mother but was NOT conceived by a biological father, in other words he was born of a virgin women, a clear dramatic distinction from the other prophets, yes all of them including Muhammad. This is more then valid proof that Jesus was in fact the son of God, how you would come up with any other conclusion is beyond me.

Proof? You talk as if things like "proof" and "logic" are applicable when they aren't. Just like with Christians, Muslims disregard logic and substitute faith instead, believing in the absence of (or worse still, contrary to) any rational, observable, quantifiable evidence that supports their belief.

And don't bring up Adam and Eve cause they didn't have a mother or a father, big difference from having only a mother.

Interesting. Can you tell us more?

[OTHstrong]

Very simply - the same way you believe that he is.



Proof? You talk as if things like "proof" and "logic" are applicable when they aren't. Just like with Christians, Muslims disregard logic and substitute faith instead, believing in the absence of (or worse still, contrary to) any rational, observable, quantifiable evidence that supports their belief.


Interesting. Can you tell us more?

Bro I am not talking to you. This is something you wouldn't understand as you are not a man of faith. So stay out of it please and thank you.

He knows what I am referring to, anyone who believes in God knows what I am referring to. From your perspective this is not logical I understand but anyone who has faith in God finds what I am saying logical, it will be interesting to see Ahmed thoughts on this and also MOS. Not interested in seeing your mocking and ridicule.

[avxo]

Bro I am not talking to you. This is something you wouldn't understand as you are not a man of faith. So stay out of it please and thank you.

He knows what I am referring to, anyone who believes in God knows what I am referring to. From your perspective this is not logical I understand but anyone who has faith in God finds what I am saying logical, it will be interesting to see Ahmed thoughts on this and also MOS. Not interested in seeing your mocking and ridicule.

Oh... well, ok then.

[OTHstrong]

Oh... well, ok then.

Sorry don't mean to sound like a jerk but put it this way...

Say there are two people who believe in the anunnaki, you know Zacharia Sitchin, planet Nibiru and all that BS. So here is one guy presenting an explanation and some logic behind a cylinder seal with cuneiform writing on it and both are in disagreement about what it says, this a valid discussion amongst them then comes someone that doesn't believe in any of this and from the outside is suggesting that both are out to lunch, see it doesn't work, both people will be like huh  .... BTW Wiggs  is an anunnaki/Nibiru fanatic lol

lol.... I know you are itching for a good debate but let the theologians debate amongst themselves for once, BTW I see you enjoyed the Olympia, as I did aswell, who did you have? Kai? or Phil?

[bigbobs]

I just finishing reading the Koran from front to back and I really don't understand how Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of God.

All major prophets according to Islam are equal and Mohammad is the last prophet, I can accept all this reasoning, I don't agree with it but I can understand where you guys are coming from

Now what boggles my mind is how a Muslim can believe Jesus had a biological mother but was NOT conceived by a biological father, in other words he was born of a virgin women, a clear dramatic distinction from the other prophets, yes all of them including Muhammad. This is more then valid proof that Jesus was in fact the son of God, how you would come up with any other conclusion is beyond me.

And don't bring up Adam and Eve cause they didn't have a mother or a father, big difference from having only a mother.

Hey bro, I'm impressed you read the whole Quran.  I haven't read the whole Bible yet but did order a copy through Amazon which is currently on its way.

Regarding your question (I don't recall the exact verse) but the Quran explains that since God is All-Powerful He can simply make any being just by saying "Be!" (not by literally saying "Be" necessarily but the meaning is He can create anything/anyone He wants with or without parents or with just a single parent, since he can create anything in any fashion). 

I'm not really following the logic on why Adam/Eve is not a fair analogy.  Yes, they had no parents while Jesus had one mother, but why would having one human parent imply that there must be a a second divine parent whereas having no human parents imply no divine parent?

[Man of Steel]

Bro I am not talking to you. This is something you wouldn't understand as you are not a man of faith. So stay out of it please and thank you.

He knows what I am referring to, anyone who believes in God knows what I am referring to. From your perspective this is not logical I understand but anyone who has faith in God finds what I am saying logical, it will be interesting to see Ahmed thoughts on this and also MOS. Not interested in seeing your mocking and ridicule.

First off, sorry for the novel.

What I gather from the Muslim community is that their belief in Allah stems from the elegance, precision and "untampered" nature of the Quaran and the idea that Muhammed was illiterate and therefore could not possibly have fabricated the Quaran over a 20+ year period with his group of faithful scribes who also could not possibly take any liberties of their own.  Now certainly what I've just said doesn't encompass every reason for Muslim belief.  Muslims acknowledge the Torah, but deny the prophetic books of the OT (as they lead to Christ as Savior and God).  

Muslims cling to a platform of "tampered, corrupted scripture" when in fact the "tampering" is in the secondary and tertiary information (the minutia) and takes nothing from the core of Christ or his message.  In the vast majority of "forgeries" or "tamperings" the issue is around a single letter, a part of a word or a single word.  Now, there does exist contraversy over the end of Mark and the the story of the adulterous woman in John.  The story in John is not found in almost all of the earliest manuscripts (ahmed refers to this repeatedly despite the fact I’ve already responded in kind), but it is found in hundreds and hundreds of later manuscripts.  That said, the Muslim claims this is a “FORGERY!!”, but a little context helps this issue.  Not all the earliest manuscripts contain this passage, but at least one does and other manuscripts contain it in other forms; further, the earliest manuscripts are cited to not be considered independent attestations and often borrowed from one another.  Seems completely reasonable that the bulk of earliest manuscripts then borrowed from a version that didn’t contain it – an unfortunate situation, but doesn’t invalidate the passage at all.   In addition, the majority of the earliest manuscripts we’ve found don’t contain it, but some do (very few, but some).  What of the other manuscripts that haven’t been found?  Perhaps they all contain it, perhaps they don’t; regardless, some do contain it.  

Muslims completely deny Paul's writings as inspired by God and they deny his relationship with the risen Christ and his relationship with Christ's disciples who acknowleged and supported Paul's missionary work and theology as sound.  Muslims simply consider Paul's work heretical or Pagan in nature.  They must do this because Paul's works substantiates the Trinity and deity of Christ.  Muslims acknowledge Christ as a prophet of God, but not the divine son of God.......or as the risen God.  That said, they must deny the prophetic books of the OT that point to Christ, they must deny the resurrection of Christ, they must deny the Holy Spirit, they must deny the divinity of Christ and they must deny Paul and his Christian ministry as divinely inspired or supported by Christ's disciples as it substantiate the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the Holy Spirit and Christ's resurrection.  

That said, a relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit is essential...the essence of Christianity.  It's why Christ came, to collect his church (his body of believers); in essence, to separate the wheat from the chaff.  God was born as a man, interacted with man, lived as a man and died as the perfect man whose death paid the debt for all our sins.  When Christ returned to the right hand of the father the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and indwelt Christ's believers via a personal, tangible relationship.  The Muslim doesn't have the personal relationship with Allah or the indwelling of Allah in them.  As it appears, there's a definite divide between Allah and Muslim believers that is completely impersonal.  I'm not saying a Muslim can't strongly belief in Allah or draw happiness from their belief, but the belief system can only exist if first Christianity is twisted, corrupted and denied.  Islam simply cannot exist on its own merits in my humble opinion.    

Most here have been presented with all the evidence for belief in Christ….both evidence via emotional appeals (ex: testimonies of believers) and evidence without emotional appeals (ex: history, archeology, philosophy).  All that’s missing is what I’ve said time and time again….the personal or experiential evidence…the faith-based evidence.  It’s the evidence that is laughed at and scoffed at and denied the most and is ironically the most important evidence and is typically the most convincing, most compelling evidence available to all.   Still, it doesn’t convince everyone because some folks had the opportunity to experience Jesus Christ right before their eyes and still denied him.....even Peter, one of Christ's most faithful, denied Christ in moments of weakness.  These folks could see him, speak to him, touch him, witness his divine works and still deny him completely.   Some folks refuse to belief no matter what…..those folks I don’t know how to help.  All we can do as a body of believers is represent Christ daily, share our experiences and beliefs as best we're able to and do our very best to live as examples for others.

[a_ahmed]

To shorten your efforts.

We reject the false and invented belief of the trinity. Paul is nothing but a fraud and a false prophet. The one that Jesus warned of, while Christians follow him and call Muhammad (pbuh) as a false prophet. If we compare the two clearly Muhammad (pbuh) stuck to what all the prophets said and did while Paul radically introduces things that Jesus neither said or did in his own writings. He also destroys his own credibility in so many of his writings. He was just rambling and forging beliefs. He condemned those as cursed amongst other things that did not follow 'his gospel'.

Jesus thought no such things. I already tried debating man of steel and he just goes silent and changes subject when the fabricated quotes such as the 'three in heaven' are mentioned. These are not 'minuta' differences or opinions... they are monolithic forgeries that dictate doctrine and belief. The bible as we know it is known as not God's word. That's it.

Last but not least I tired debating man of steel on various verses which prove Jesus is not God but again he side tracks or ignores or changes topic when they are brought forth. Jesus thought the same as all the prophets.

Hear oh Israel your Lord God is one. He didn't say hear oh israel your Lord is a triune God.

We believed in the revelations, the books, the angels, the prophets and messengers.

"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allaah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." [Quran 2:79]

[a_ahmed]

[Man of Steel]

To shorten your efforts.

We reject the false and invented belief of the trinity. Paul is nothing but a fraud and a false prophet. The one that Jesus warned of, while Christians follow him and call Muhammad (pbuh) as a false prophet. If we compare the two clearly Muhammad (pbuh) stuck to what all the prophets said and did while Paul radically introduces things that Jesus neither said or did in his own writings. He also destroys his own credibility in so many of his writings. He was just rambling and forging beliefs. He condemned those as cursed amongst other things that did not follow 'his gospel'.

Jesus thought no such things. I already tried debating man of steel and he just goes silent and changes subject when the fabricated quotes such as the 'three in heaven' are mentioned. These are not 'minuta' differences or opinions... they are monolithic forgeries that dictate doctrine and belief. The bible as we know it is known as not God's word. That's it.

Last but not least I tired debating man of steel on various verses which prove Jesus is not God but again he side tracks or ignores or changes topic when they are brought forth. Jesus thought the same as all the prophets.

Hear oh Israel your Lord God is one. He didn't say hear oh israel your Lord is a triune God.

We believed in the revelations, the books, the angels, the prophets and messengers.

"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allaah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." [Quran 2:79]

Dude, I work full time, raise a family and have many other things going on right now.  I don't have time to entertain every one of your posts.  I get in once in awhile and post what I can.  In fact, I don't even read thoroughly everything that is posted.....yours and other posts.  At best I skim posts because that's all I have time for.  If you've posted something over and over again I may not have read it.  I know it's inconceivable, but I don't read every word of every ahmed post.  I actually invest more time praying for you than I do reading your posts.

I interact with one third of the "pagan trinity" every single day of my life.....you do not.

[Griffith]

Mohammed was just a warmonger, caravan thief and mass murderer who made up the Koran and told a primitive desert people whatever they wanted to hear so he could gain personal power.

As if the God of the Universe and all creation would be so perverted and shallow as to give a dead man a whole bunch of virgins when he dies...

If there is an afterlife you'd think we would at least have ascended to a better level where these types of petty perversions are irrelevant.

I have to say this here because Muslims around the world right now are showing what a plague to the human race they are.
Some might be offended, but the logic of thousands upon thousands of protesting people to a pathetic video on the internet and then targeting and killing anyone from that nationality or who is even just white shows a pathetic and primitive mentality not compatible with modern civilisation.

The idea of the Trinity is also just an interpretation, Arian Christians on the other hand did not follow this interpretation.

But the Koran and Mohammed are the biggest sham here.
It's just a pick and choose combination of the Torah and Bible for Arabic audiences.
To refer to 'monolithic forgeries' well then look no further than the Koran.

The irony is that so much of your cult comes from the Jews, which you people hate. The early Christians were also Jews, now represented by the Israelis.
Mohammed became aware of the Torah and Bible from his travels.............then disappears into a cave to 'meditate' and miraculously comes out with a book with stories from Judaism and Christianity.

Also, what kind of sick demon cult its followers a huge amount of prostitutes and whores when they die so that they can have a huge orgy....?
Only a twisted demon would think like this.

The Mohammedan cult is clearly a sham designed for the ignorant and the weak-minded to support the political efforts of its war mongering leader.

It is anti-human and goes against nature.

They are against freedom and want to impose their intolerance and hatred on others.
And they are against the culture and history of Western Civilization.

Christians and most Jews are at least able to live modern normal lives, they are able to still live balanced lives, go out and have fun and live as part of a modern civilization.

Luckily these two faiths as well as secular people are generally united to protect the West from the medieval primitiveness, evil and oppression of the Mohammedan cult.

[OTHstrong]

Hey bro, I'm impressed you read the whole Quran.  I haven't read the whole Bible yet but did order a copy through Amazon which is currently on its way.

Regarding your question (I don't recall the exact verse) but the Quran explains that since God is All-Powerful He can simply make any being just by saying "Be!" (not by literally saying "Be" necessarily but the meaning is He can create anything/anyone He wants with or without parents or with just a single parent, since he can create anything in any fashion). 

I'm not really following the logic on why Adam/Eve is not a fair analogy.  Yes, they had no parents while Jesus had one mother, but why would having one human parent imply that there must be a a second divine parent whereas having no human parents imply no divine parent?

They were created therefor they didn't require parents. Jesus was not created, but conceived through devine intervention. His birth came through a virgin, so one can only conclude that the spirit of God was working in Mary's womb, from a biological point of view there would of had to be a process of development in her womb that would require a male counterpart for fertilization, you need both male and female to carry out the task. So if the Holy Spirit fulfilled the role of the male for the fertilization process then the Spirit of God is in fact the father of Jesus.

Now if you claim that Mary did not go through these steps in order to conceive then what activities where going on in her womb for 9 months? Nothing at all? was it just emptiness in her womb and all of a sudden a baby came out? Of course not, the 9 months of pregnancy had to be genuine otherwise why bother starting the miracle at the beginning of the pregnancy?

Now one more thing. Since Adam, according to the Koran/Quran (not sure which one you prefer) there has been only one human being that has been born of a human mother only. Out of billions and billions of people Jesus is the only one and when I started reading the Koran I was paying close attention if the Koran stated a reason for the Virgin birth of Jesus and I did not come across any, not even one reason, in the Koran the word used by the angel when he was talking to Mary was "decreed" I found this extremely fascinating because "decreed" means the highest order from God himself.

So you have a virgin birth that makes this man different then any other human to have ever walked the face of the earth according to the Koran and it was done this way through an order of the highest degree by God ("decreed") according to the Koran and yet the Koran can NOT give a reason for such a fascinating distinction, not even one.

Here is the reason; the scriptures says that man that come from Adam is Sinful, and sense Jesus is the Sun of God and cannot sin, he can not be born of a man that comes from Adam, very logical. He is therefor conceived by the Holy Spirit.

I'm curious as to why it is not important for a Muslim to know why Jesus was chosen for such an extraordinary and fascinating occurrence. After reading the Koran I felt like Muslims disregard this as no big deal and don't acknowledge the significance of it.

[bigbobs]

They were created therefor they didn't require parents. Jesus was not created, but conceived through devine intervention. His birth came through a virgin, so one can only conclude that the spirit of God was working in Mary's womb, from a biological point of view there would of had to be a process of development in her womb that would require a male counterpart for fertilization, you need both male and female to carry out the task. So if the Holy Spirit fulfilled the role of the male for the fertilization process then the Spirit of God is in fact the father of Jesus.

Now if you claim that Mary did not go through these steps in order to conceive then what activities where going on in her womb for 9 months? Nothing at all? was it just emptiness in her womb and all of a sudden a baby came out? Of course not, the 9 months of pregnancy had to be genuine otherwise why bother starting the miracle at the beginning of the pregnancy?

Now one more thing. Since Adam, according to the Koran/Quran (not sure which one you prefer) there has been only one human being that has been born of a human mother only. Out of billions and billions of people Jesus is the only one and when I started reading the Koran I was paying close attention if the Koran stated a reason for the Virgin birth of Jesus and I did not come across any, not even one reason, in the Koran the word used by the angel when he was talking to Mary was "decreed" I found this extremely fascinating because "decreed" means the highest order from God himself.

So you have a virgin birth that makes this man different then any other human to have ever walked the face of the earth according to the Koran and it was done this way through an order of the highest degree by God ("decreed") according to the Koran and yet the Koran can NOT give a reason for such a fascinating distinction, not even one.

Here is the reason; the scriptures says that man that come from Adam is Sinful, and sense Jesus is the Sun of God and cannot sin, he can not be born of a man that comes from Adam, very logical. He is therefor conceived by the Holy Spirit.

I'm curious as to why it is not important for a Muslim to know why Jesus was chosen for such an extraordinary and fascinating occurrence. After reading the Koran I felt like Muslims disregard this as no big deal and don't acknowledge the significance of it.

We don't believe God has sexual function especially sexual function that's compatible with humans, such as having His own sperm that would fertilize Mary's egg.  God can "make" sperm that would fertilize without it being His own sperm, because God is above having human characteristics like dna.  That's why we believe God "made" Jesus but did not "beget" him.

It's not only Muslims who do not believe in the Trinity while still believing in the virgin-birth, there have been many Unitarian Christian movements, many were violently silenced.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Biddle_(Unitarian)

There's also lots of conceptual difficulties with the idea of the Trinity.  For example if God begot Jesus, that would by definition mean that Jesus did not previously exist, which woudl mean that they (God/"Father" and Jesus) are not the same entity.  Also, how can the created be equal to the creator, etc.

[a_ahmed]

I'll save you the trouble.

"God was in the womb for 9 months?"  

Of course not... it's blasphemy according to not just Muslims but the OT/torah. Jesus never thought such things, against to reiterate, it is later paul and later generations.

Indeed those who rejected the trinity were violently suppressed and trinitarianism prevailed.

Man of steel in another thread said God is male.

I tried to explain to him God created male and female gender. God is not his creation and is unique. Sex, male, female these are things that God created. Procreation, which is the sexual act of begetting is something God created for many and most of his creatures. Humans and animals. We continue to reproduce via this mechanism.

God is not a man, God is not male, God does not have sex as it is an act which He created for His creatures. Some creatures reproduce asexually for example. All these things are created by God but are not God

[OTHstrong]

We don't believe God has sexual function especially sexual function that's compatible with humans, such as having His own sperm that would fertilize Mary's egg.  God can "make" sperm that would fertilize without it being His own sperm, because God is above having human characteristics like dna.  That's why we believe God "made" Jesus but did not "beget" him.

It's not only Muslims who do not believe in the Trinity while still believing in the virgin-birth, there have been many Unitarian Christian movements, many were violently silenced.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Biddle_(Unitarian)

There's also lots of conceptual difficulties with the idea of the Trinity.  For example if God begot Jesus, that would by definition mean that Jesus did not previously exist, which woudl mean that they (God/"Father" and Jesus) are not the same entity.  Also, how can the created be equal to the creator, etc.

Point noted, but when you put it altogether that the sperm used has no gyneology and is powered by the Holy Spirit, also you did not address why God would include a chosen individual out of all humanity to be honored and distinguished above all else, Mohammad included. Why?

Oh I am not arguing the Trinity, although i believe in the Trinity, but no one is going to believe in the Trinity without believing Jesus was the son of God first.

[OTHstrong]

"God was in the womb for 9 months?

The Spirit of God was

[a_ahmed]

So parts of God are here some there? And then later God even commits suicide and is dead.

Do you see how ludicrous that sounds? Aside from the fact it contradicts the OT entirely.. and.. even if you use the NT it proves that God is God and Jesus is Jesus. Separate. Not the same.