The bible and the trinity (or lack of it)

[bigbobs]

Point noted, but when you put it altogether that the sperm used has no gyneology and is powered by the Holy Spirit, also you did not address why God would include a chosen individual out of all humanity to be honored and distinguished above all else, Mohammad included. Why?

Oh I am not arguing the Trinity, although i believe in the Trinity, but no one is going to believe in the Trinity without believing Jesus was the son of God first.

I understand what you're saying - there's definite uniqueness about Jesus as a prophet in Islam in that he was born from Virgin Mary and he is to return to fight the AntiChrist, however uniqueness does not elevate to divine / non-human status.  For example, Adam was a unique prophet in that he had no parents, Muhammad was unique in that he was the last prophet.  Why did God choose these certain uniquenesses we don't know.  

The reason I brought up the Trinity and Unitarian Christians was just to show that it's not only Muslims who believe that having no biological father implies Jesus must have been the literal son of God.  

[avxo]

Letting the "debate" happen without interfering and just reading what the "theologians" have to say has paid off in spades...

[syntaxmachine]

Letting the "debate" happen without interfering and just reading what the "theologians" have to say has paid off in spades...

Well, the entertainment value is top-notch. 

[avxo]

So parts of God are here some there? And then later God even commits suicide and is dead.

Are you saying that if Allah wanted to do all those things he couldn't? Is he not omnipotent?

[OTHstrong]

So parts of God are here some there? And then later God even commits suicide and is dead.

Do you see how ludicrous that sounds? Aside from the fact it contradicts the OT entirely.. and.. even if you use the NT it proves that God is God and Jesus is Jesus. Separate. Not the same.

Putting restrictions on God sounds way more ludicrous

[OTHstrong]

I understand what you're saying - there's definite uniqueness about Jesus as a prophet in Islam in that he was born from Virgin Mary and he is to return to fight the AntiChrist, however uniqueness does not elevate to divine / non-human status.  For example, Adam was a unique prophet in that he had no parents, Muhammad was unique in that he was the last prophet.  Why did God choose these certain uniquenesses we don't know.  

The reason I brought up the Trinity and Unitarian Christians was just to show that it's not only Muslims who believe that having no biological father implies Jesus must have been the literal son of God.  

Simple cause Adam was the first, as far as Muhammad is concerned I don't believe he was the last prophet but even if he was you can't compare Jesus t o Adam or Muhammad his "uniqueness" is on an entirely different level here.

[OTHstrong]

Are you saying that if Allah wanted to do all those things he couldn't? Is he not omnipotent?

Wow I actually agree with your point for once 

[Griffith]

The concept of the Trinity is merely an interpretation, Arian Christians did not believe that all three Entities are one and the same.

A Christian does not to have to believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit or one and the same and all equal....nowhere does it explicitly say so in the bible, so is merely an interpretation.

Also, the argument by the Moslems that Mohammed is the 'last prophet' so his version is the final and right version doesn't hold water.

Then what about the Mormons? Or the Moonies....? Or Jehovah's Witnesses...?
They use the same argument as the Moslems.

One could then argue that Islam is merely an offshoot cult from Judeo-Christian religions.

And no-one seems to want to answer this little question:  
What kind of sick demonic cult gives its followers a huge amount of prostitutes and whores when they die so that they can have a huge orgy....?
The Mohammedans are not allowed these types of sexual indulgences on Earth, yet such depravity is deemed OK when they're dead..?

[Man of Steel]

I'll save you the trouble.

"God was in the womb for 9 months?" 

Of course not... it's blasphemy according to not just Muslims but the OT/torah. Jesus never thought such things, against to reiterate, it is later paul and later generations.

Indeed those who rejected the trinity were violently suppressed and trinitarianism prevailed.

Man of steel in another thread said God is male.

I tried to explain to him God created male and female gender. God is not his creation and is unique. Sex, male, female these are things that God created. Procreation, which is the sexual act of begetting is something God created for many and most of his creatures. Humans and animals. We continue to reproduce via this mechanism.

God is not a man, God is not male, God does not have sex as it is an act which He created for His creatures. Some creatures reproduce asexually for example. All these things are created by God but are not God

This one's simple....you deny Jesus Christ as God and you deny the trinity.  Of course you deny God being considerd a male.  Islam must attempt to refute anything that corroborates the trinity and/or Jesus as God.

[bigbobs]

Simple cause Adam was the first, as far as Muhammad is concerned I don't believe he was the last prophet but even if he was you can't compare Jesus t o Adam or Muhammad his "uniqueness" is on an entirely different level here.

Yes, but like I said uniqueness alone does not suggest divinity.  To believe Jesus was God he would have had to say so himself, and something so significant likely would have been said so on many occasions. 

[bigbobs]

This one's simple....you deny Jesus Christ as God and you deny the trinity.  Of course you deny God being considerd a male.  Islam must attempt to refute anything that corroborates the trinity and/or Jesus as God.

But it's not just Islam that denies the trinity, even many Christians do:  http://americanunitarian.org/explanation.htm 

[Man of Steel]

But it's not just Islam that denies the trinity, even many Christians do:  http://americanunitarian.org/explanation.htm 

Yes, there exist sects of nominal Christian churches and other denominations that also cherry pick scripture to form their own desired end. 

[bigbobs]

Yes, there exist sects of nominal Christian churches and other denominations that also cherry pick scripture to form their own desired end. 

Why do you call it "cherry-picking" and not interpretation?  One can argue that using the vague evidences of the Trinity within the Bible is also "cherry picking scripture to form their desired end." 

The majority of Christians today believe in the Trinity because that's what their parents, churches, etc. taught them, without actually having read the bible, knowing the history of when the Trinity concept was founded and that other interpretations exist.

[Man of Steel]

Why do you call it "cherry-picking" and not interpretation?  One can argue that using the vague evidences of the Trinity within the Bible is also "cherry picking scripture to form their desired end."  

The majority of Christians today believe in the Trinity because that's what their parents, churches, etc. taught them, without actually having read the bible, knowing the history of when the Trinity concept was founded and that other interpretations exist.

Perfectly fine, swap "interpret" for "cherry picking".

Actually Christians today believe in the Trinity because they're indwelt with the Holy Spirit and a have a real, tangible relationship because of it.  A Muslim is no different from an Atheist in this regard.

[bigbobs]

Perfectly fine, swap "interpret" for "cherry picking".

Actually Christians today believe in the Trinity because they're indwelt with the Holy Spirit and a have a real, tangible relationship becaues of it.  A Muslim is not different than an Atheist in this regard.

Practically every follower of every religion believes they have a tangible relationship with God. 

[Man of Steel]

Practically every follower of every religion believes they have a tangible relationship with God. 

Absolutely correct, but those non followers of Christ aren't indwelt with the Holy Spirit.  It's easy, the proof is in the pudding.  Truly desire to know the risen Christ and believe in him and the Holy Spirit will be made manifest in your life too.

[bigbobs]

You think they are non-followers of Christ, and they think you are.  Boils down to different interpretations of the Bible and of Jesus' quotes.  

However, if the Bible stated in black-and-white the Trinity, Jesus being God, etc. there would not be such contrasting interpretations.

[Man of Steel]

You think they are non-followers of Christ, and they think you are.  Boils down to different interpretations of the Bible and of Jesus' quotes.  

However, if the Bible stated in black-and-white the Trinity, Jesus being God, etc. there would not be such contrasting interpretations.

That's why the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost.  The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the difference for believers.  Unfortunately it's what drives nonbelievers to call Christians "arrogant" and "narrow-minded".  Christians are narrow-minded because Christ is the narrow gate and we are reassured in our faith because of the indwelling Holy Spirit.  Without the Holy Spirit you're simply left with exactly what you stated.... "contrasting interpretations".   

[a_ahmed]

This one's simple....you deny Jesus Christ as God and you deny the trinity.  Of course you deny God being considerd a male.  Islam must attempt to refute anything that corroborates the trinity and/or Jesus as God.

If God is male according to you. Are you saying God has a ... I don't want to say it, what we have between our legs?

[Man of Steel]

If God is male according to you. Are you saying God has a ... I don't want to say it, what we have between our legs?

God the Father and the Holy Spirit I can't say, but God the Son in Jesus Christ who lived as a man I would say definitely yes.

Again you're perspective on the gender issue stems directly from denial of Christ as God and the trinity.....my answer won't mean much to you because you object to the rationale.

[OTHstrong]

If God is male according to you. Are you saying God has a ... I don't want to say it, what we have between our legs?

Your thoughts are way to basic and you seem to be putting God in a box, thinking he is restricted and saying God can't be, God has to be, let me tell you something. No man knows God, he is too awesome for you to comprehend and he can do everything you think he can't or shouldn't and at the end it will all be for the Good.

 As far has having a private part, probably not but the scripture says he made man in his image, so that would make him a man and the Torah refers to God as a man. In exodus the scripture says "God is a man of war, the Lord is his name" These are things we can not understand about God. but yes he is a man, and yes he is God almighty at the same time, he is not restricted to what your limited thoughts may have you believe. My understanding is the Angels have no private parts and the scripture refer them as males as well and they eat, sleep and drink, go figure.

[bigbobs]

Before saying that God is male you must be able to define "male."

Look it up in dictionaries and the definition revolves around sexual function and organs, so Ahmed's question is fair.  

We believe it's actually restricting to God to assign Him a gender, since having a gender in itself is a trait of mammals, beings He created who are below Him.  If you truly elevate God to the highest, don't you believe He is above having gender characteristics?

[Man of Steel]

Before saying that God is male you must be able to define "male."

Look it up in dictionaries and the definition revolves around sexual function and organs, so Ahmed's question is fair. 

We believe it's actually restricting to God to assign Him a gender, since having a gender in itself is a trait of mammals, beings He created who are below Him.  If you truly elevate God to the highest, don't you believe He is above having gender characteristics?

I think that's fair to define the term "male", but from a Christian perspective Christ is the "Son of God" who referred to himself with the distinguished title of "Son of Man" and we also refer to "God the Father".  That said, the Holy Spirit and God the Father may not be considered males, but the terms "Father", "Son" and "Man" all point to a male gender.  Christ didn't produce offspring, but he lived as a man and died as a man so in that sense he was a male.

[bigbobs]

I think that's fair to define the term "male", but from a Christian perspective Christ is the "Son of God" who referred to himself with the distinguished title of "Son of Man" and we also refer to "God the Father".  That said, the Holy Spirit and God the Father may not be considered males, but the terms "Father", "Son" and "Man" all point to a male gender.  Christ didn't produce offspring, but he lived as a man and died as a man so in that sense he was a male.

Have you considered that perhaps this is done not in a literal fashion but simply because the English language doesn't have words to refer to an entity that does not have a gender?  I use the word "He" as well when referring to God but I don't literally believe he is male.

[OTHstrong]

Before saying that God is male you must be able to define "male."

Look it up in dictionaries and the definition revolves around sexual function and organs, so Ahmed's question is fair.  

We believe it's actually restricting to God to assign Him a gender, since having a gender in itself is a trait of mammals, beings He created who are below Him.  If you truly elevate God to the highest, don't you believe He is above having gender characteristics?

Wrong big time, there are different definitions of the word male. Some don't have anything to do sexual functions and only one of it's definitions does. So according to you guys a male plant has to have a penis?  lol, AH No, of course not.

Now, correct me if I am wrong but don't Muslims believe in the Torah?... Well the Torah says God is a male.