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Author Topic: Islam and womens rights  (Read 11073 times)
avxo
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« Reply #150 on: August 01, 2013, 11:04:34 AM »

First of all, it's spelled "Nobel" after Alfred Nobel. Second, "highest level of thought and civilization"? Hardly, and a trivial matter to disprove to any rational observer. And lastly, logical holes in the content of the post aside, if that argument were true then why is did she go from wearing a niqab to a hijab to a simple scarf?

And let's not even bother asking the question, "did she actually say this or did some inarticulate clown paste those words alongside her picture and name and put the resulting agglutination online?"
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #151 on: August 01, 2013, 01:03:41 PM »

^did not read because poster fails at life thinking he's an accident.


#SHOCKING!!! 55-YEAR OLD MUSLIM WOMAN BEATEN UNCONSCIOUS IN #MAYFAIR (LONDON)

Islamic Human Rights Commission (IHRC) received a very troubling report of a violent hate-crime against a 55-year-old Muslim woman in Mayfair.

She was grabbed from behind and punched repeatedly on the back of the head. She fell face down on the pavement.

The attacker then grabbed her head scarf and dragged her along the pavement, continuing to beat her around the head and face

He shouted profanities at Muslims, Ramadhan whilst beating her, as well as spitting on her, he had the women's blood on his shirt and hands

With his bloody hands he slapped her on the face, leaving a blood-stained hand print on her face

He then ran off, the women fell unconscious. The hate crime has been reported to the police.

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/news/articles/10631-horrific-attack-on-55-year-old-muslim-woman
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« Reply #152 on: August 01, 2013, 01:10:56 PM »

^did not read because poster fails at life thinking he's an accident.


Except that's not what I think and you know it. Which makes me conclude that you are lying. Is that what good Muslims do? Spam online fora and lie through their teeth?

If you can't win a rational debate against me then be man enough to admit it. It's not that big deal and theres no need to act all petty and make silly underhanded comments like the above - and certainly no reason to lie and sully the good name of muslims, who are honest and truthful according to the Qur'an.



#SHOCKING!!! 55-YEAR OLD MUSLIM WOMAN BEATEN UNCONSCIOUS IN #MAYFAIR (LONDON)

Islamic Human Rights Commission (IHRC) received a very troubling report of a violent hate-crime against a 55-year-old Muslim woman in Mayfair.

She was grabbed from behind and punched repeatedly on the back of the head. She fell face down on the pavement.

The attacker then grabbed her head scarf and dragged her along the pavement, continuing to beat her around the head and face

He shouted profanities at Muslims, Ramadhan whilst beating her, as well as spitting on her, he had the women's blood on his shirt and hands

With his bloody hands he slapped her on the face, leaving a blood-stained hand print on her face

He then ran off, the women fell unconscious. The hate crime has been reported to the police.

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/news/articles/10631-horrific-attack-on-55-year-old-muslim-woman

That's pretty fucked up. Violence is a horrible thing and violent acts like this should be condemned, as should those who do initiate them.
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« Reply #153 on: August 01, 2013, 01:18:37 PM »

She said it, you don't like it. Too bad. Bickering about irrelevance = u mad.
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« Reply #154 on: August 01, 2013, 01:27:07 PM »

She said it, you don't like it. Too bad. Bickering about irrelevance = u mad.

She did? Can you provide an actual quote from a reputable publication instead of a picture made by someone?

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« Reply #155 on: August 01, 2013, 06:53:31 PM »

^did not read because poster fails at life thinking he's an accident.


#SHOCKING!!! 55-YEAR OLD MUSLIM WOMAN BEATEN UNCONSCIOUS IN #MAYFAIR (LONDON)

Islamic Human Rights Commission (IHRC) received a very troubling report of a violent hate-crime against a 55-year-old Muslim woman in Mayfair.

She was grabbed from behind and punched repeatedly on the back of the head. She fell face down on the pavement.

The attacker then grabbed her head scarf and dragged her along the pavement, continuing to beat her around the head and face

He shouted profanities at Muslims, Ramadhan whilst beating her, as well as spitting on her, he had the women's blood on his shirt and hands

With his bloody hands he slapped her on the face, leaving a blood-stained hand print on her face

He then ran off, the women fell unconscious. The hate crime has been reported to the police.

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/news/articles/10631-horrific-attack-on-55-year-old-muslim-woman

Do you have any idea about attacks from muslims towards non-muslims in the UK? (which of course are never classified as "racist" or "hate crimes")
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #156 on: August 01, 2013, 07:25:11 PM »

^no not at all because it doesn't get repeated 247 for months on months with experts and 'analysts' blaring on every tv station about it every single day. Oh wait they do?

You must be living under a rock because it's in fact the attacks on Muslims that are under-reported, not reported, skewed or covered up as much as possible on mainstream media.
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« Reply #157 on: August 01, 2013, 07:31:44 PM »

^no not at all because it doesn't get repeated 247 for months on months with experts and 'analysts' blaring on every tv station about it every single day. Oh wait they do?

You must be living under a rock because it's in fact the attacks on Muslims that are under-reported, not reported, skewed or covered up as much as possible on mainstream media.

The usual "under-reported" whine... Have you been to the UK to actually see the muslim areas?
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« Reply #158 on: August 01, 2013, 10:47:34 PM »

The usual "under-reported" whine... Have you been to the UK to actually see the muslim areas?

Don't ask Ahmed questions. They challenge his perception of reality and, by extension, the Qur'an. And that's bad. Besides, it's not like he will cogently answer anything. He just posts links and parrots his grimoire incessantly.
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« Reply #159 on: August 02, 2013, 10:07:49 AM »

Don't ask Ahmed questions. They challenge his perception of reality and, by extension, the Qur'an. And that's bad. Besides, it's not like he will cogently answer anything. He just posts links and parrots his grimoire incessantly.

Wow "grimoire"....epic word usage!!  Somebody's played some D&D!!   Wink
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« Reply #160 on: August 04, 2013, 03:07:48 PM »

The usual "under-reported" whine... Have you been to the UK to actually see the muslim areas?

Ahmed doesn't get to travel so much now he's on the "no fly" list.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #161 on: August 04, 2013, 05:01:45 PM »

May Allah (swt) bless her for standing up for the truth against the US backed up military junta.

Egypt denies entry to Yemeni Nobel laureate Tawakul Karman
Peace prize winner who voiced support for ousted president Mohamed Morsi held at Cairo airport before being deported



Tawakul Karman was sent back on the same plane she flew into Egypt on, security sources said Photograph: Remo Casilli/Reuters

Egypt barred the Yemeni Nobel peace laureate Tawakul Karman from entering the country on Sunday and put her on a flight back to Dubai, security sources said.

State news agency Mena said Karman, who had previously announced her solidarity with supporters of Mohamed Morsi, overthrown by the army a month ago, was on a list of people who were not allowed to enter Egypt.

A spokesman for Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood said Karman had recently joined demonstrations in Cairo demanding the former leader be reinstated.

Karman's Twitter feed on Sunday said the writer and activist had been held at Cairo airport and prevented from joining protests. She was sent back on the same plane she flew in on, the security sources said.

The Brotherhood criticised Karman's deportation and said it was reminiscent of the rule of former autocrat Hosni Mubarak.

"This is an abandonment of the gains of Egypt's January revolution. The government is reproducing the practices of Mubarak's state security," said Yasser Ali, a Brotherhood official and former presidential spokesman.

Karman, a 34-year-old mother of three, who became a figure of symbolic importance in the 2011 Yemeni uprising, became the first Arab woman and second Muslim woman to win the Nobel peace prize. In Yemen she is called the "Iron Woman" and "Mother of the Revolution".

A member of Yemen's leading Islamic opposition party, the Islah, Karman had denounced the army's toppling of Morsi, calling it a coup and a "blow to democracy".

In a statement on Friday, she said it had weakened moderate political Islam and strengthened the hand of religious extremists in the Arab world.

"We can't allow this sense of disappointment in democracy to grow. This is terrifying. Rest assured the first beneficiary of the weakening currents of political Islam are violent terror groups."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/04/egypt-nobel-laureate-tawakul-karman
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« Reply #162 on: August 09, 2013, 02:52:21 PM »



My name is Marwa Sherbini, I was murdered in a German court along with my husband and unborn child.

What was my crime?

I was a Muslim...

An islamaphobic hooligan attacked me in the street simply because I wore hijab. I refused to leave this matter without due process out of fear that he would harm another one of my sisters, so I informed the authorities and took a stand in court against him.

Little did I know, what was to follow...

This retched man smuggled a knife in to the court room, how he got it past the authorities is beyond me.

He leaped across the stand and stabbed me!! In the middle of the court room! Where bailiffs and police were present!!
Not once, not twice but 18 TIMES!!!

The sad thing is, no one flinched to come to my rescue! He managed to stab me 18 times, murdering my unborn child and me, but in that time not a single armed guard reacted!

It was my dear husband who came to my rescue... He ran towards me in hope of protecting me and our child from this savage but before he could reach me the bailiffs SHOT HIM DOWN!!!

Not the man with the knife who was savagely hacking away at me but my husband! The one who was coming to protect me!!

Is this how justice works in the west?
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #163 on: August 10, 2013, 08:43:54 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmbN4kDre5o" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmbN4kDre5o</a>
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« Reply #164 on: August 10, 2013, 11:25:25 PM »



My name is Marwa Sherbini, I was murdered in a German court along with my husband and unborn child.

What was my crime?

I was a Muslim...

An islamaphobic hooligan attacked me in the street simply because I wore hijab. I refused to leave this matter without due process out of fear that he would harm another one of my sisters, so I informed the authorities and took a stand in court against him.

Little did I know, what was to follow...

This retched man smuggled a knife in to the court room, how he got it past the authorities is beyond me.

He leaped across the stand and stabbed me!! In the middle of the court room! Where bailiffs and police were present!!
Not once, not twice but 18 TIMES!!!

The sad thing is, no one flinched to come to my rescue! He managed to stab me 18 times, murdering my unborn child and me, but in that time not a single armed guard reacted!

It was my dear husband who came to my rescue... He ran towards me in hope of protecting me and our child from this savage but before he could reach me the bailiffs SHOT HIM DOWN!!!

Not the man with the knife who was savagely hacking away at me but my husband! The one who was coming to protect me!!

Is this how justice works in the west?

That's pretty fucked up and quite tragic. I looked up the story online and the thug that did the stabbing at least got convicted of murder and got a life sentence. But from what I read, the situation was pretty crazy in the Courtroom and the police who were not in the Courtroom at the time of the incident and responded to an alarm raised by the Judge almost certainly made a tragic - but understandable - mistake in the frenzy.

But what's just as fucked up is that you (and your ilk) would use this tragedy and this woman's name in this manner to promote your agenda by putting words in her mouth and pretending that the cops (who, again, were not in the Court when the stabbing occurred but rushed in after the incident was already well under way) shot her husband on purpose instead of focusing on the real assailant.

That is pretty fucking sick Ahmed. Almost as sick as the perpetrator of this heinous crime.
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« Reply #165 on: August 11, 2013, 07:57:53 AM »



<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuEljkNR3ss" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuEljkNR3ss</a>
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« Reply #166 on: August 12, 2013, 04:50:44 AM »

Do you have any idea about attacks from muslims towards non-muslims in the UK? (which of course are never classified as "racist" or "hate crimes")

Exactly.
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« Reply #167 on: August 12, 2013, 07:13:07 AM »

If you compare women rights in Islam vs Western democracies, then Islam loses big time.
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« Reply #168 on: August 12, 2013, 09:51:13 AM »

Please give me an example how islam 'loses big time'
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« Reply #169 on: August 12, 2013, 10:18:49 AM »

Please give me an example how islam 'loses big time'

Inheritance, employment opportunities without social stigma, sexual discrimination/harassment laws, divorce rights and alimony, non-chauvinistic male centric world view/environment, personal freedom without dependence on a "wali"(guardian). 

Islam's women's rights is relatively good in comparison to other religions, in addition to the time it came about.

...But modern western democracies have radically surpassed this for almost a century now. Not only Islam, but all pre-modern history.   
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #170 on: August 12, 2013, 03:03:08 PM »

Inheritance, employment opportunities without social stigma, sexual discrimination/harassment laws, divorce rights and alimony, non-chauvinistic male centric world view/environment, personal freedom without dependence on a "wali"(guardian).  

Islam's women's rights is relatively good in comparison to other religions, in addition to the time it came about.

...But modern western democracies have radically surpassed this for almost a century now. Not only Islam, but all pre-modern history.  

Excellent I'm glad you brought these up.

The problem is that western ideal of 'freedom' or 'equality' has a problem in on itself. The limits set as to what is 'freedom' in western society are loose and 'equality' in terms of genders in the west is beyond reason and beyond reality.

Absolute equality is neither just or fair. Why? There's a few factors to consider.

Are men and women truly equal in every sense of the word? No we are not. Is a man or a woman more likely to be raped? Is a man or a woman likely more vulnerable to being assaulted or more prone to violence and have the inability to defend him or herself? Is a man or a woman capable of physically being stronger than the one or the other? Is a man able to give birth or carry a child in the womb or deliver a baby?

What the west deems as 'equality' is in the absolute. Such as in the US the divorce laws of 50:50 splits unless a prior writing is written out.

So in fact it is the west that is taking away the rights of men and women, imposing injustice on men and women, placing one or the other in vulnerable positions while Islam takes into account all these differences while the western value system does not.

Furthermore Islam defends the dignity and value of women, protects women while the west exposes them to vulnerability and exploitation.

Lastly Islam protects the family while the west is degrading the family.

Lets now take a look at your claims one by one and see what's actually happening.

Inheritance

First of all, a will and inheritance is mandatory in Islam, unlike in the west where people are often left out of any kind of inheritance and the government or corporations or certain organizations can posess property if no will is left behind. In Islam it's set in stone so that no one is ever left out of what they inherit.

The way wealth is divided is with wisdom amongst the younger/elderly and the two genders. Men are the carriers of families and they carry the burden of working and providing. Islam emphasises on family values. Islam does not burden a woman to work. She can work if she wants to but she does not have to. The burden is upon a man. So when a woman inherits less than a man it is because although she was under the care of her wali and family, her husband will be the one responsible for providing for her and she has no responsibility to provide for herself what she inherits is thus just. A man on the other hand will have the burden and will also be accountable for taking care of his parents, while a woman also does not have this primary responsibility.

Thus God who created us takes into account what is just towards men and women as to not overburden one or the other while protecting the family which is the foundation of society.

divorce rights and alimony

As I already mentioned, the idea of western 'equality'. Where is the justice in a man working his ass off his whole life, and some whore marries him for his money, gets children, divorces him and gets 50:50 while she didn't lift a finger in her life. This is injustice towards the man.

When a woman is married she is given a gift which is solely her own that can be anything or any amount and the purpose of it is to protect the women or it can be symbolic. The man cannot take it back.

A woman can divorce and there is no blame on her if she decides to, however Islam discourages divorce, but allows it. It discourages it as the first step is counselling and trying to determine what a problem is and try to hold the family together.

However if it is not reconcilable and divorce is the only option that is final.

Employment opportunities

I'll start again with the 'absolute equality'. The oppression of women in the west led to extreme feminism which tried to make women absolute equals to men again. So if a "man can do it" "I can do it". So that includes shoveling roads, driving trucks, looking like a male bodybuilder on stage jacked with male hormones, anything goes. The reality however is, still like any society the burden of a woman bearing children, taking care of family and children still exists. So in reality it is the west that oppresses women by overburden responsibilites upon a woman.

In Islam a woman does not have to work as the responsibility falls purely upon a man to provide for his family. However if a woman wants to work or run her own business a man cannot TOUCH her earnings what so ever. Anything she contributes towards him or the family is considered charity as it is her own property and no one can touch it.

Can a woman do "ANY KIND" of job in Islam such as being a stripper 'if she wants to'. No but again this is where the looseness of western values falls short.

sexual discrimination/harassment laws

The what? Please state what you are talking about because there is no 'sexual harassment laws'. If anything the only such laws would be for punishing men who sexually harass women. The protection of women in Islam is of great importance.

personal freedom without dependence on a "wali"(guardian).

What "freedom". Define "freedom". Freedom to go out with men, date, sex? The whole point of a wali as you mention is a gaurdian. Someone to protect the woman when they can be exploited by asshole men just as is evident on most bodybuilding boards where guys post pix of girls they banged in one night stands.

Tell me please that you wouldn't be concerned for your own daughter? Yes in western society it is quit ethe norm for children to tell their parents F off, be disrespectful and do whatever the hell they want as society definetely encourages this and many other 'freedoms'. The point of the parents is to raise their children with etiquette, values, respect, a future. The point of the father protecting his daughter is just that.

If she wants to marry someone and there is no fault with the man and he is sound, but the father objects and the woman still wants to marry the wali can be overruled by a judge. The whole point is to ensure the safety and well being of a woman.

A mature woman who was divorced does not require a wali for example. A woman who does not have parents or uncles or whoever can seek a wali to represent her to investigate the man, find out how he is, etc...

So as you can see everything comes down to protection of women, protection of family and justice. So it's not lack of rights but in fact giving proper rights and not the so called 'freedoms' that the loose western values are slowly eroded by.
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« Reply #171 on: August 12, 2013, 04:48:52 PM »

Excellent I'm glad you brought these up.

The problem is that western ideal of 'freedom' or 'equality' has a problem in on itself. The limits set as to what is 'freedom' in western society are loose and 'equality' in terms of genders in the west is beyond reason and beyond reality.

Absolute equality is neither just or fair. Why? There's a few factors to consider.

Are men and women truly equal in every sense of the word? No we are not. Is a man or a woman more likely to be raped? Is a man or a woman likely more vulnerable to being assaulted or more prone to violence and have the inability to defend him or herself? Is a man or a woman capable of physically being stronger than the one or the other? Is a man able to give birth or carry a child in the womb or deliver a baby?

What the west deems as 'equality' is in the absolute. Such as in the US the divorce laws of 50:50 splits unless a prior writing is written out.

So in fact it is the west that is taking away the rights of men and women, imposing injustice on men and women, placing one or the other in vulnerable positions while Islam takes into account all these differences while the western value system does not.

Furthermore Islam defends the dignity and value of women, protects women while the west exposes them to vulnerability and exploitation.

Lastly Islam protects the family while the west is degrading the family.

Lets now take a look at your claims one by one and see what's actually happening.

Inheritance

First of all, a will and inheritance is mandatory in Islam, unlike in the west where people are often left out of any kind of inheritance and the government or corporations or certain organizations can posess property if no will is left behind. In Islam it's set in stone so that no one is ever left out of what they inherit.

The way wealth is divided is with wisdom amongst the younger/elderly and the two genders. Men are the carriers of families and they carry the burden of working and providing. Islam emphasises on family values. Islam does not burden a woman to work. She can work if she wants to but she does not have to. The burden is upon a man. So when a woman inherits less than a man it is because although she was under the care of her wali and family, her husband will be the one responsible for providing for her and she has no responsibility to provide for herself what she inherits is thus just. A man on the other hand will have the burden and will also be accountable for taking care of his parents, while a woman also does not have this primary responsibility.

Thus God who created us takes into account what is just towards men and women as to not overburden one or the other while protecting the family which is the foundation of society.

divorce rights and alimony

As I already mentioned, the idea of western 'equality'. Where is the justice in a man working his ass off his whole life, and some whore marries him for his money, gets children, divorces him and gets 50:50 while she didn't lift a finger in her life. This is injustice towards the man.

When a woman is married she is given a gift which is solely her own that can be anything or any amount and the purpose of it is to protect the women or it can be symbolic. The man cannot take it back.

A woman can divorce and there is no blame on her if she decides to, however Islam discourages divorce, but allows it. It discourages it as the first step is counselling and trying to determine what a problem is and try to hold the family together.

However if it is not reconcilable and divorce is the only option that is final.

Employment opportunities

I'll start again with the 'absolute equality'. The oppression of women in the west led to extreme feminism which tried to make women absolute equals to men again. So if a "man can do it" "I can do it". So that includes shoveling roads, driving trucks, looking like a male bodybuilder on stage jacked with male hormones, anything goes. The reality however is, still like any society the burden of a woman bearing children, taking care of family and children still exists. So in reality it is the west that oppresses women by overburden responsibilites upon a woman.

In Islam a woman does not have to work as the responsibility falls purely upon a man to provide for his family. However if a woman wants to work or run her own business a man cannot TOUCH her earnings what so ever. Anything she contributes towards him or the family is considered charity as it is her own property and no one can touch it.

Can a woman do "ANY KIND" of job in Islam such as being a stripper 'if she wants to'. No but again this is where the looseness of western values falls short.

sexual discrimination/harassment laws

The what? Please state what you are talking about because there is no 'sexual harassment laws'. If anything the only such laws would be for punishing men who sexually harass women. The protection of women in Islam is of great importance.

personal freedom without dependence on a "wali"(guardian).

What "freedom". Define "freedom". Freedom to go out with men, date, sex? The whole point of a wali as you mention is a gaurdian. Someone to protect the woman when they can be exploited by asshole men just as is evident on most bodybuilding boards where guys post pix of girls they banged in one night stands.

Tell me please that you wouldn't be concerned for your own daughter? Yes in western society it is quit ethe norm for children to tell their parents F off, be disrespectful and do whatever the hell they want as society definetely encourages this and many other 'freedoms'. The point of the parents is to raise their children with etiquette, values, respect, a future. The point of the father protecting his daughter is just that.

If she wants to marry someone and there is no fault with the man and he is sound, but the father objects and the woman still wants to marry the wali can be overruled by a judge. The whole point is to ensure the safety and well being of a woman.

A mature woman who was divorced does not require a wali for example. A woman who does not have parents or uncles or whoever can seek a wali to represent her to investigate the man, find out how he is, etc...

So as you can see everything comes down to protection of women, protection of family and justice. So it's not lack of rights but in fact giving proper rights and not the so called 'freedoms' that the loose western values are slowly eroded by.


I'm fully aware of what you wrote, and in an ideal world, a person who willingly submits to this belief system, should be able to live a life of relative quality and justice.

The problem lies in people's application and level of adherence to divine guidance.

I've interacted with many Muslims in my life time, and i've come across very few who follow their religion properly. I've even spoke to people who complain about the mass Muslim ignorance and the difficulty it presents when they try to live a life strictly based on divine guidance.

Matter of fact, the above stated topic dominates most lectures and seminars held since the resurgence of Islam after secular socialist/nationalist movements in the Muslim world.

Many of what Muslims follow today is adulterated, bastardized cultural adaptations based off divine guidelines.

In this case, when a person chooses to become Muslim, he is not only at the mercy of his own level of understanding, but also collective society as a whole.

A Muslim who has a  high level of understanding of his religion will find that most Muslim countries are corrupt, misguided, hypocritical, and unjust.

To attempt to remedy this reality is a highly complex riddle in itself.

That's why i like western ideals and laws. They have standardized basic human rights and freedoms, and developed a functioning common law that delivers justice more than chaos and injustice.

I know you live in Canada, and i can assure you, you can practice your religion with more ease than Muslim countries, with no fear of persecution or abuse disguised with religious undertones.
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« Reply #172 on: August 12, 2013, 05:06:35 PM »

As you are aware I lived in Arab Muslim countries before ever being a Muslim so I am well aware of the situation and I am well aware of the Muslim worled how those countries are not ruled by Islam but rather secular values, secular puppet regimes and dictatorships which have only trace elements of some islamic values as you said bastardized and not properly implemented. People following tribal or cultural customs rather than Islam does not negate Islam, rather it showcases that what they are following is backwards and not islam.

So again the problem is not with Islam but rather those people not following Islam. So you argument of western values still 'being better' is invalid, because there is no problem with Islam but rather people who do not follow it or are ignorant.

As a person who has embraced Islam, I and those who practice the religion want to implement Islam not cultural or tribal customs. So Muslims in the Muslim world also desire to implement shari'ah and khilafah in the proper sense. However the west sees this system as a threat because it would undermine the political and economic power of the west. The system itself is more just, it would undermine the injustices and corruption both in the west and in the puppet regimes serving the west in muslim countries now, the wealth would be distributed amongst Muslim nations which are many, the population of Muslims, the land and resources vast, so unity under a khilafah is something the west does not want. The western system is already crumbling socially, morally and economically. It thrives through the military industrial complex. Conflict is profitable and that's how the west is sustaining itself. What wealth? 17 trillion dollars of debt is wealth and prosperity? Can you enumerate that wealth?

The west has already in the past tried a divide and conquer tactic. All the arab nationalist flags are designed by the British. The red, green, black, white flag designs. Nationalism is against Islam for instance.

Incidents that undermine woman's rights have to do with village idiots following their tribal customs rather than Islam. Morons throwing acid on women's faces, forced marriages, rapes, tribal killings all that non-sense. Islam would put a stop to these injustices. However western interests dictate civil strife. That is why the US is always trying to have proxy agents in the muslim world, funding oppositions, etc... not because it cares for any each side but rather wants to prevent Muslim unity and the rule under Islam rather than secular liberal dictatorial garbage.

Even the concept of trade and economics under Islam is a threat to the west. Without credit, debt or interest which is supremely more just, realistically manageable with proper flow of wealth.

The concept of zakat even is about justice. Unlike the taxation systems of the west some which go up to 50% in some European nations. yet despite the high taxes, the taxes seem to always keep going up and up and up and the money magically is never enough. It's quite clear what's happening.

The irony is some concepts that the west employs are in fact ISLAMIC concepts not western concepts. For example the concept of wellfare was started by the second Muslim caliphate Umar ibn Al-Khattab (ra). Books give credit to him for this. Simple things that you take for granted in the west are in fact Islamic values. Even the concept of innocent until proven guilty was taken from Muslim jurists and qur'anic principles.

The level of justice that Islam teaches is that one stands up for the truth even if it is against ones own self.

Today the west employs treachery, deception and lies for one's own selfishness. It teaches that people are guilty by suspicion without evidence. Guilty until proven innoscent. The list goes on and it's getting worse.
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avxo
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You've given me multiple traumatic brain injuries!


« Reply #173 on: August 12, 2013, 05:41:11 PM »

Excellent I'm glad you brought these up.

Oh... goody, let's play!


Absolute equality is neither just or fair. Why? There's a few factors to consider.

That depends on what you define as "equality" doesn't, it?


Is a man or a woman capable of physically being stronger than the one or the other? Is a man able to give birth or carry a child in the womb or deliver a baby?

What does that have to do with equality. Also, to keep it body-building related  Grin



What the west deems as 'equality' is in the absolute. Such as in the US the divorce laws of 50:50 splits unless a prior writing is written out.

You are slightly confused about US divorce laws but that's hardly surprising; you seem to be slightly confused about a great many things. But I digress... There's no 50:50 split mandated anywhere, and numerous factors are taken into consideration, although the system is biased to favor women.


Furthermore Islam defends the dignity and value of women, protects women while the west exposes them to vulnerability and exploitation.

It does, does it? It defends their dignity and value by allowing men to marry more than one woman (4:3) and by treating them as object of desire, to bribe men with (2:25)?


Lets now take a look at your claims one by one and see what's actually happening.

Yes. Let's!

First of all, a will and inheritance is mandatory in Islam, unlike in the west where people are often left out of any kind of inheritance and the government or corporations or certain organizations can posess property if no will is left behind. In Islam it's set in stone so that no one is ever left out of what they inherit.

So you're free to mandatorily provide an inheritance? Sucks that your things aren't yours to do with as you please...

Also, it's not surprising that you're again slightly confused about inheritance laws "in the West" (whatever that means - as if all Western countries have a uniform system in regards to inheritance). Tell me, which corporations possess property that hasn't been disposed of in a will?


The way wealth is divided is with wisdom amongst the younger/elderly and the two genders.

Also divided by following the instruction that males inherit twice as much as females (4:11). Don't forget that. We wouldn't want to be unfair now, would we?


Thus God who created us takes into account what is just towards men and women as to not overburden one or the other while protecting the family which is the foundation of society.

Wait... you just got done telling us that men must provide for women. How is that not overburdening? Why can't women provide for themselves?


As I already mentioned, the idea of western 'equality'. Where is the justice in a man working his ass off his whole life, and some whore marries him for his money, gets children, divorces him and gets 50:50 while she didn't lift a finger in her life. This is injustice towards the man.

As I already mentioned, you have no idea what you're talking about. There's no "50-50" split mandated anywhere in the law. You're taking a very complex and diverse set of laws from multiple jurisdictions and distilling them down to what is, demonstrably, a lie.


When a woman is married she is given a gift which is solely her own that can be anything or any amount and the purpose of it is to protect the women or it can be symbolic. The man cannot take it back.

Great, and?


A woman can divorce and there is no blame on her if she decides to, however Islam discourages divorce, but allows it. It discourages it as the first step is counselling and trying to determine what a problem is and try to hold the family together.

Sure, she just can't have sex for three months after getting a divorce and must provide information on her menses to her ex during that time (2:228).


I'll start again with the 'absolute equality'. The oppression of women in the west led to extreme feminism which tried to make women absolute equals to men again. So if a "man can do it" "I can do it". So that includes shoveling roads, driving trucks, looking like a male bodybuilder on stage jacked with male hormones, anything goes. The reality however is, still like any society the burden of a woman bearing children, taking care of family and children still exists. So in reality it is the west that oppresses women by overburden responsibilites upon a woman.

Why shouldn't women shovel their driveways or drive trucks? They're not delicate little flowers. They're people, and most are a lot tougher than you give them credit for.

In Islam a woman does not have to work as the responsibility falls purely upon a man to provide for his family. However if a woman wants to work or run her own business a man cannot TOUCH her earnings what so ever. Anything she contributes towards him or the family is considered charity as it is her own property and no one can touch it.

In the West, a single woman only has to work if she wants to provide for herself; just like a single man. That's pretty fair and equal. If she's married and working or not is decision to be made by her husband. So unfree and unjust!


Can a woman do "ANY KIND" of job in Islam such as being a stripper 'if she wants to'. No but again this is where the looseness of western values falls short.

Could a woman attend University under the Taliban regime in Afghanistan? Can women drive cars in Saudi Arabia? Can women become Judges in Iran? Or would a woman wanting to do any of those things be a result of the "looseness of western values" too?


The what? Please state what you are talking about because there is no 'sexual harassment laws'. If anything the only such laws would be for punishing men who sexually harass women. The protection of women in Islam is of great importance.

Right... they protect them so well, in fact, that a woman who reported being raped in Dubai was, herself, prosecuted and convicted for being raped. Although she was eventually pardoned, after the outcry of people of "loose" morals no doubt, so was her attacker. Great importance, indeed.


What "freedom". Define "freedom".

noun. The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.


Freedom to go out with men, date, sex?

Sure, those are all things that an adult woman should be able to do, if she so chooses. She should have the power and the right to act, speak and think as she wants, without hindrance or restraint.


The whole point of a wali as you mention is a gaurdian. Someone to protect the woman when they can be exploited by asshole men just as is evident on most bodybuilding boards where guys post pix of girls they banged in one night stands.

You don't think much of women, do you? You think they're incapable of making good decisions or taking care of themselves; you just seem them as pretty little flowers, powerless against the big bad men who're out to pluck them from the field. And you fancy yourself the big, strong man to care for and protect them...


Tell me please that you wouldn't be concerned for your own daughter?

Sure I would, and while she was a still a child I would care for and protect her to the best of my ability. But once she was an adult, I would trust her to take the life lessons that I had taught her and apply them wisely and make her own decisions. I wouldn't appoint myself her guardian or dictate to her how she is to live her life.


Yes in western society it is quit ethe norm for children to tell their parents F off, be disrespectful and do whatever the hell they want as society definetely encourages this and many other 'freedoms'. The point of the parents is to raise their children with etiquette, values, respect, a future. The point of the father protecting his daughter is just that.

Teenagers are rebellious in every society and under every system. Some are disrespectful - some extremely so. But it's hardly the "norm" for children to tell their parents to fuck off.

I do have one question: you do realize that most of us here live in Western societies and know what's actually happening in those societies, right? It seems kind of silly to lie to us about it. It's not like we'll take your word over the evidence we observe every day with our own eyes.


If she wants to marry someone and there is no fault with the man and he is sound, but the father objects and the woman still wants to marry the wali can be overruled by a judge. The whole point is to ensure the safety and well being of a woman.

Why don't you trust the woman to ensure her own safety and well-being, but require a wali and, sometimes, even a Judge? Because you don't have respect for women, that's why.


So as you can see everything comes down to protection of women, protection of family and justice. So it's not lack of rights but in fact giving proper rights and not the so called 'freedoms' that the loose western values are slowly eroded by.

Yes. Which is why in Dubai women who're raped are protected by being convicted...
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a_ahmed
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Posts: 5771


Team Nasser


« Reply #174 on: August 12, 2013, 05:50:23 PM »

I'm not wasting my time reading your crap axvo you're ignorant of anything Islam teaches and even when you're explained you go about in circles. At least psychopath has some knowledge and understanding. You're just wasting your time blabbering.
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