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Author Topic: Stretching  (Read 1466 times)
Roger Bacon
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« on: October 08, 2012, 11:28:55 AM »

No one ever talks about stretching.

There's a few pages on it in The New Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding.


I think it's extremely helpful, and read something about it recently enabling your muscles to grow larger (and stronger) because you actually lengthen them?

 Huh
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 10:26:45 PM »

I think it's important to stretch.  I do it inbetween sets.  This way I am doing something beneficial, not just doing nothing inbetween sets.  It's active recovery.  Also it's a great deterint against people wanting to come up and chat to you in the gym.  They see you focused and busy and let you be. 
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WOOO
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2012, 04:51:08 AM »

you should never stretch before or during sets (reduces muscle elasticity)...

but stretching at the end of a workout does add value, i use a yoga strap to stretch my upper body (i also do yoga 3 times per week)
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Yev33
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2012, 05:36:23 AM »

you should never stretch before or during sets (reduces muscle elasticity)...

but stretching at the end of a workout does add value, i use a yoga strap to stretch my upper body (i also do yoga 3 times per week)

Couldn't agree more
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WOOO
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2012, 08:02:05 AM »

Couldn't agree more

yeah, i've seen a lot of injuries over the years (especially shoulders, but tears as well) in athletes who stretch while bench pressing
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2012, 08:16:44 AM »

Stretching can lower your power. Study after recent study has shown decrease power with static stretching prior to many athletic activities. If you watch sprinters they don't need a study to show them that dynamic stretching increases the range of motion without taking away their spring (power). Static stretching after working out can help as long as you don't over do it.
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jpm101
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2012, 09:03:56 AM »

WOOO sets a good example of stretching and doing Yoga.I have done Yoga before, with excellent results. Yoga poses/holds can be very demanding, even to the point of working up a light sweat and heavy breathing if your a beginner. The importance of a flexible spine can never be underestimated. Ricky Williams (former NFL RB) is a example of a person who has been into Yoga (physical/medical and spiritual) for many years. Including ganja, which may or may not be spiritual to some folks.

 Just to note, you can not lengthen a muscle by stretching or any other way. Your stuck with what nature gave you. The idea that serious ROM/stretches can add muscle  ( space for expansion, if following the current held idea), is true to a certain point.

Some BB'ers will include stretches during a workout. Prime example might be when working the lats. Right after a  back set they will grab a pole, peace of equipment, etc and stretch, one arm or both, and hold the full stretch for a couple of seconds.Usually from a bent over position. Or hang from a chinning bar and stretch that way, allowing a full hand/stretch at the complete bottom.  Seems to bring out a fuller sweep to the lats themselves

Can be applied to calves, as well.  After a set of calve raises, rather than leaving the exercise (as you normally would) and resting between sets, you would remain at the full bottom position , keeping that full stretch, until ready for the next set of calf raises. Never reducing  the tension on the calves themselves. Lot of advance men swear by this method.  If new to this, be cautious at the beginning....extremely painful a day or two after. Probably can  apply this stretch protocol to the pecs( flys-dips, etc) or other exercises.

A very good quad stretch is the Sissy squat (bwt). Please learn how to do it the correct way, so many don't and not get the total benefit of this movement (check out Gironda style). Will add some size to the quads, from just above to knees and all the way up.  Good Luck.
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2012, 10:18:08 AM »

good points... in doing yoga I learned the difference between dynamic and static stretching (there are some dynamic movements in yoga during the warm ups when you move from pose to pose quickly)...

i'm by far the biggest guy in my yoga classes, but more and more men are showing up...

the workouts are challenging and relaxing but they also have value for recovery, for example, because I have been doing hill sprints lately with a 40lb weight vest I found myself having to recover from increased leg and back compression...

to deal with these effects i've been holding Sirsasana (headstand) for 20 minutes or more each morning (i do yoga every day outside of the classes picking 2-3 complex poses after a brief workout)...

this morning I held the pose for about 35 minutes... does wonders
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2012, 12:04:46 PM »

One thing for sure is that you should use a full range of motion for many reasons. One is that it makes the exercise harder. The second you will increase flexibility. Doing a lot of half presses so you can handle the big dumbbells will tighten your shoulders making them injury prone. I have even seen guys who do half bench presses with a bar claiming it prevents injury. It actually make your joints more prone to injuries. Go past that limited range due to fatigue and rip. 
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jpm101
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2012, 01:39:51 PM »

With all due respect:   Actually the middle 2/3 ROM of push/pull and even extension exercises,  seem be the most effective for muscle recruitment. Reason why TUT has become so successful for many. Wanting the most work done, in the shortest period of time with regards to TUT protocol.

 Full ROM: top=allowing the joints to take over, and releasing muscle tension.   Bottom=reduced or very little in the way of steady tension. SS's, Tri sets, Quad sets, 21's/7's, 1 and 1 half reps, etc carries the theme of the most work in the shortest (quickest) period of time. Full ROM, though successful for some, does not always make any exercise harder but can put undo stress on the joints.

Want flexibility, than do individual stretches before and after any workout. Want serious muscle, than might consider middle range reps, at a quick speed. With attention to continual tension on the muscle worked.

WOOO:   Nice information. Insecure guy's (a large percentage of  BB'ers, I have met) would never admit that they have done Yoga.Thinking it's for women and not men. Oxygen and breathing exercises are extremely important in Yoga movements, as you know.  Good Luck
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2012, 02:46:39 PM »

With all due respect:   Actually the middle 2/3 ROM of push/pull and even extension exercises,  seem be the most effective for muscle recruitment. Reason why TUT has become so successful for many. Wanting the most work done, in the shortest period of time with regards to TUT protocol.

 Full ROM: top=allowing the joints to take over, and releasing muscle tension.   Bottom=reduced or very little in the way of steady tension. SS's, Tri sets, Quad sets, 21's/7's, 1 and 1 half reps, etc carries the theme of the most work in the shortest (quickest) period of time. Full ROM, though successful for some, does not always make any exercise harder but can put undo stress on the joints.

Want flexibility, than do individual stretches before and after any workout. Want serious muscle, than might consider middle range reps, at a quick speed. With attention to continual tension on the muscle worked.

WOOO:   Nice information. Insecure guy's (a large percentage of  BB'ers, I have met) would never admit that they have done Yoga.Thinking it's for women and not men. Oxygen and breathing exercises are extremely important in Yoga movements, as you know.  Good Luck
I obviously disagree. If you want to use the current buzz pseudo scientific term of time under tension wouldn't it increase by making the exercise harder and through  a full range of motion? Of course it makes an exercise harder. Can you press more doing half or 3 quarter reps or doing a full range of motion?  Is a full squat harder than a  half squat? Is pressing a weight 200lbs weight 24 inches or 15 inches more work? The laws of physics doesn't change for anyone.
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WOOO
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 03:41:23 PM »

I know we're slightly off topic here, but I'm curious, what is "TUT"?

As for yoga and breathing... I wish I had learned to understand the yogic breath years ago... allows to you focus you mind and muscle very quickly and has many many many applications outside of yoga.
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Montague
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2012, 03:47:50 PM »

With all due respect to both men, I believe that both styles of training yield benefits. Perhaps the favored method is specific to individual training goals.

Personally, I am concerned primarily with cosmetic muscle and have discovered limited ROM training to be a superior style of exercise execution for hypertrophy of the targeted muscle. Full ROM often sees stress transferred to secondary/ancillary muscles, lockout/joints, and/or gravity.

If one is training, instead, for functional strength, then it may benefit them more to follow a more conventional full-ROM style of lifting, using all of the muscles of a compound lift. Although - again, from experience - I know that partials done inside a rack certainly have a place in building strength on certain compound exercises.

I think partial rep training gets a bad rap mainly from people who misunderstand its true purpose, especially since so many people misuse the principle by eliminating the hardest part of the rep.
Proper partial rep training confines the ROM to the hardest part of the rep for a given muscle. In terms of development, this style has given me the best results.
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Montague
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2012, 03:49:32 PM »

I know we're slightly off topic here, but I'm curious, what is "TUT"?


Time under tension, or the length of time that a muscle experiences maximum tension during an exercise.
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WOOO
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2012, 04:09:03 PM »


Time under tension, or the length of time that a muscle experiences maximum tension during an exercise.


right right right...

I knew that...

personally though, I always use a full ROM... why? always felt more normal to me...
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Montague
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 04:19:13 PM »


right right right...

I knew that...

personally though, I always use a full ROM... why? always felt more normal to me...


It took me several weeks to acclimate to the practice. If you're into whole concept of "feeling" the muscle work, the concept is slightly easier to accept. Primarily, I employ the practice on presses and certain triceps extensions.

For chest and shoulder presses, I still go deep on the eccentric portion, but stop the concentric part before triceps take over much.
On certain tricep work like dips, skull-crushers or JM presses, I never completely straighten the arms to avoid lockout.
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WOOO
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« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2012, 04:29:46 PM »


It took me several weeks to acclimate to the practice. If you're into whole concept of "feeling" the muscle work, the concept is slightly easier to accept. Primarily, I employ the practice on presses and certain triceps extensions.

For chest and shoulder presses, I still go deep on the eccentric portion, but stop the concentric part before triceps take over much.
On certain extension work like dips, skull-crushers or JM presses, I never completely straighten the arms to avoid lockout.



right... i actually never lock out bench presses... i like to keep the weight on the pecs... never really got cerebral about it, but i guess it is TUT with full ROM at the bottom...
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« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2012, 04:47:57 PM »

Have been training for about 25 years.

Up untill 2 years ago my back sucked, no width, detail or thickness. 

Always trained hard but finally realized I couldnt bring my shoulder blades together for a full back contraction.

Started to stretch 4 to 5 times a week. Hung from bar with different width grips for 25 to 30 seconds, I contract my rhomboids the whole time.

Do other extreme stretches for 10 to 20 min after every workout.

My back actually looks pretty decent now and I BELIEVE ITS FROM THE EXTREME STRETCHES.
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jpm101
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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2012, 04:56:56 PM »

Well, to be factual, TUT has been around before Gironda. The theory, or exercise science, probably in the late 1890's.. And is one of the  keystones of function and  establishing muscular growth.

 It's also not about the weight on the bar, but how it is handled. The whole point is to target the roughly 2/3's phase of any exercise. There are three phases to a muscle contraction;beginning. middle and finish. Not about strength, so much as it's about keeping consent tension on the working muscle.With a full ROM, there is encountered portions where the tension on the muscle worked, is greatly reduced. Losing the whole point of complete tension throughout the exercise.

 Thinking I explained all that in my previous posts, guess I didn't do that well of a job. It's not the only way to train, of course, just a different approach to potential increasing muscle mass. And in a shorter period of time. Full ROM's and partial reps are another. I prefer partial rep training (heavy rack protocol), but that's just me.  Help yourself to any training method you wish. No one will every agree one size fits all.

Wooo: not a question of focus of the mind or control, but only watching the breath. You don't have to understand anything. Pretty simple, really. Getting the breath to around 4 or 5 breaths a minute and the heart beat to around the 4 or 5 beats a minute level only takes patience and time. There is the point of reaching a very deep state of awareness. Usually 20-30 minutes in the morning  and night of this basic and simple meditation.  Then when you have reached and entered that very quite state, just listen for the sound, light show or whatever may appear. Can also do special breathing exercises and spinal locks, advancing even more. Remembering also, that Yoga is not a religion, as some may think. Just another way to approach life.

As with D.O.U.P.experience; look at gymnast to see the value of full stretches. I had suggest extra,extra wide to very close grips from a chinning bar before, with hanging in a loose style. Even adding weight around the waist, as you progress, which in some cases, can be good for spinal adjustments. Hanging from one arm can also have good benefits.If you find that you need straps to help the grip, than use them. Good Luck.
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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2012, 05:01:00 PM »

Good thread. 
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WOOO
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« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2012, 05:02:56 PM »

Wooo: not a question of focus of the mind or control, but only watching the breath. You don't have to understand anything. Pretty simple, really. Getting the breath to around 4 or 5 breaths a minute and the heart beat to around the 4 or 5 beats a minute level only takes patience and time. There is the point of reaching a very deep state of awareness. Usually 20-30 minutes in the morning  and night of this basic and simple meditation.  Then when you have reached and entered that very quite state, just listen for the sound, light show or whatever may appear. Can also do special breathing exercises and spinal locks, advancing even more. Remembering also, that Yoga is not a religion, as some may think. Just another way to approach life.


pranayama is actually pretty complex... I'm still just scratching the surface, but you're right at the beginner level (except that it's in and out through the nose only which is not normal for most people)... those who control their breath at a higher level claim far more benefits

http://www.abc-of-yoga.com/pranayama/
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Montague
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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2012, 05:03:21 PM »

Good thread. 

Yeah, it's already October. We figured we were running out of time for this year.
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jpm101
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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2012, 06:42:58 PM »

Montague:  Maybe call this GB's October Surprise?

Wooo: Been connected to a well known Yoga center in Encinitas, SoCal, Off PCH. First got tech points at there Hollywood center  (Sunset Blvd) many years ago, when I was in high school during summer break. Late while in college.. Sorry to disagree, but fairly simple stuff.Only takes a certain amount of learning and breaking bad habit as far as breath goes.  If you can plan a complex workout protocol, then leaning Yoga simple exercises should be a snap for you. Now into Kundalini, where breath and spine are very important. Good Luck.
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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2012, 07:03:28 PM »

Montague:  Maybe call this GB's October Surprise?


 Grin

I've probably mentioned this before, but you're part of the reason I switched to partial-rep training.

My first gym years ago was a very old-school place. Fortunately, many of those guys took a liking to me and I learned a good bit from them. I'd often notice that more than a few of the bigger trainers used rather short strokes on many movements, but I never bothered to ask why, and no one ever explained that in particular to me.

Some time later, you mentioned it in a thread here. The concept sounded solid, so I tried it for a while. I've been so happy with the results that I've trained that way ever since.
Funny enough, I ran into one of those veteran lifters about a month ago at my current gym. After catching up, the discussion turned to training. I mentioned my new favorite training "style" and he just smiled and said, "Now you're really training like a body builder."
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