The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.

[OTHstrong]

The scriptures are clear about Israel being Gods chosen people;

Psalms 72;18...Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things

No point in stating all the verses but there are several hundred where God calls and or indicates the children of Israel as his chosen people

Now I will give you a quick summery of the events that took place prior to God choosing Israel as Gods chosen people.

Abraham had a wife who could not conceive so Abraham needed his lineage to continue as he was a patriarch, a man of honor, respect and enormous wealth. So since his wife was baron he decided to continue his lineage with his wifes maid. The maid gave birth to Ishmael who is known to be the father of almost all Arab speaking people alive today.

Several years later Abrahams wife is able to give birth and does so to Isaac, the true heir of Abrahams empire, so the maid and her son was abandoned from Abrahams plans.

Ishmael ends up surviving some turn of events and establishes himself in wealth and power and goes on to having 12 sons.

Several generations later Isaac has a son named Jacob, Jacob gets his name changed to Israel and has 12 sons, hence the 12 tribes of Israel. Jacob is the father of all Jewish people and his descendants become Gods chosen people. This is to fulfill Gods covenant with Abraham.

What does the Bible say about Ishmael?

"he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren." When Ishmael was born, Abram was 86 years old.

At the age of 14, Ishmael was freed along with his mother. The Lord’s covenant made clear Ishmael was not to inherit Abraham’s house and that Isaac would be the seed of the covenant. Abraham gave him and his mother a supply of bread and water and sent them away. Hagar entered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba where the two soon ran out of water and Hagar, not wanting to witness the death of her son, set the boy some distance away from herself, and wept. "And God heard the voice of the lad" and sent his angel to tell Hagar, "Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation." And God "opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water", from which she drew to save Ishmael's life and her own. "And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer."

Now it is established that the Lord helped Ishmael because of him coming from the lineage of Abraham but he did not receive the established covenant God promised Abraham, that promise went to Isaac and Jacob and went to all children of Israel, Gods chosen people.

Judaism has generally viewed Ishmael as wicked, so there has been a conflict from day one between Gods chosen people, the Israelites and the sons of Ishmael.

Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, born to him from his second wife Hagar. Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several prominent Arab tribes and being the forefather of Muhammad.[25] Muslims also believe that Muhammad was the descendant of Ishmael that would establish a great nation, as promised by God in the Old Testament.[26]

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.
—Genesis 17:20

So there you have it the promise carried out through Israel was one hair away from it going to Ishmael, but unfortunately for Ishmael he did not get to be Gods chosen people but nevertheless God did bless him and he became powerful nations and he is the Arabs of today.


Summery; The children of Ishmael hold a grudge and feel that the Jewish people have stole from them the covenant God promised but it was the way God wanted it. Out of all this resentment and jealousy comes the birth of Islam.

The Muslim will never accept the path God has chosen for them and have given themselves a delusion to create their own path without Gods blessing so they started a false religion in Islam and have tried to convert all people to their religion.

It is my humble opinion that if you asked every single Muslim on the planet if they had the chance would they wipe out the Jews off the face of the earth 90% of them would say YES


edit, the apostrophe on my keyboard is not working, sorry  

[Brixtonbulldog]

lol... pwnd by us heebs again!!!!

[OTHstrong]

heebs? does that mean Hebrews?   

[Man of Steel]

The scriptures are clear about Israel being Gods chosen people;

Psalms 72;18...Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things

No point in stating all the verses but there are several hundred where God calls and or indicates the children of Israel as his chosen people

Now I will give you a quick summery of the events that took place prior to God choosing Israel as Gods chosen people.

Abraham had a wife who could not conceive so Abraham needed his lineage to continue as he was a patriarch, a man of honor, respect and enormous wealth. So since his wife was baron he decided to continue his lineage with his wifes maid. The maid gave birth to Ishmael who is known to be the father of almost all Arab speaking people alive today.

Several years later Abrahams wife is able to give birth and does so to Isaac, the true heir of Abrahams empire, so the maid and her son was abandoned from Abrahams plans.

Ishmael ends up surviving some turn of events and establishes himself in wealth and power and goes on to having 12 sons.

Several generations later Isaac has a son named Jacob, Jacob gets his name changed to Israel and has 12 sons, hence the 12 tribes of Israel. Jacob is the father of all Jewish people and his descendants become Gods chosen people. This is to fulfill Gods covenant with Abraham.

What does the Bible say about Ishmael?

"he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren." When Ishmael was born, Abram was 86 years old.

At the age of 14, Ishmael was freed along with his mother. The Lord’s covenant made clear Ishmael was not to inherit Abraham’s house and that Isaac would be the seed of the covenant. Abraham gave him and his mother a supply of bread and water and sent them away. Hagar entered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba where the two soon ran out of water and Hagar, not wanting to witness the death of her son, set the boy some distance away from herself, and wept. "And God heard the voice of the lad" and sent his angel to tell Hagar, "Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation." And God "opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water", from which she drew to save Ishmael's life and her own. "And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer."

Now it is established that the Lord helped Ishmael because of him coming from the lineage of Abraham but he did not receive the established covenant God promised Abraham, that promise went to Isaac and Jacob and went to all children of Israel, Gods chosen people.

Judaism has generally viewed Ishmael as wicked, so there has been a conflict from day one between Gods chosen people, the Israelites and the sons of Ishmael.

Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, born to him from his second wife Hagar. Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several prominent Arab tribes and being the forefather of Muhammad.[25] Muslims also believe that Muhammad was the descendant of Ishmael that would establish a great nation, as promised by God in the Old Testament.[26]

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.
—Genesis 17:20

So there you have it the promise carried out through Israel was one hair away from it going to Ishmael, but unfortunately for Ishmael he did not get to be Gods chosen people but nevertheless God did bless him and he became powerful nations and he is the Arabs of today.


Summery; The children of Ishmael hold a grudge and feel that the Jewish people have stole from them the covenant God promised but it was the way God wanted it. Out of all this resentment and jealousy comes the birth of Islam.

The Muslim will never accept the path God has chosen for them and have given themselves a delusion to create their own path without Gods blessing so they started a false religion in Islam and have tried to convert all people to their religion.

It is my humble opinion that if you asked every single Muslim on the planet if they had the chance would they wipe out the Jews off the face of the earth 90% of them would say YES


edit, the apostrophe on my keyboard is not working, sorry 

I had no idea Muhammed descended from this line.  Not that I don't believe you, but I'm intereted to see if our resident Muslim brothers would agree with this.  Soon as read this I googled it and saw it repeated over and over as correct; although, there were random dissenting opinions.  Curious to see where they stand.

[bigbobs]

Too long copy and pasted and not in your own words for me to read.  Can you give a Coles Notes version? 

[Man of Steel]

Too long copy and pasted and not in your own words for me to read.  Can you give a Coles Notes version?  

ahmed's tried this tactic on me too.  LOL, he even went so far as to criticize the color of the font so he didn't have to read it.

[bigbobs]

ahmed's tried this tactic on me too.  LOL, he even went so far as to criticize the color of the font so he didn't have to read it.

LOL honestly it's not a tactic, I read the first few sentences and didn't see where it's going, then skipped to the "summery" and didn't follow it either.

My posts are always pretty concise.  If the argument makes sense to you or Onetimehard it should be easy for you to summarize it in a paragraph...

[OTHstrong]

Too long copy and pasted and not in your own words for me to read.  Can you give a Coles Notes version? 

It was my own version, I did not copy, only thing copied are verses cause I will not change the words from the scriptures, these are my own words I promise you and if you where a man you will admit that your assumption was incorrect

[OTHstrong]

LOL honestly it's not a tactic, I read the first few sentences and didn't see where it's going, then skipped to the "summery" and didn't follow it either.

My posts are always pretty concise.  If the argument makes sense to you or Onetimehard it should be easy for you to summarize it in a paragraph...

How can you not see where it was going bro, it was common sense. You did not read it cause these facts I wrote in my own words are impossible to deny.

[bigbobs]

It was my own version, I did not copy, only thing copied are verses cause I will not change the words from the scriptures, these are my own words I promise you and if you where a man you will admit that your assumption was incorrect

K I believe you, my bad.  I will read it this afternoon

[tbombz]

the simple fact is that faith in eternal justice and a benevolent creator demands pacifism and unconditional love towards all beings. Muhammad spent 10 years fighting in war. therefore, its impossible that he was a prophet.  period. end of story.


none of that bullshit referring to literature is needed.

[OTHstrong]

the simple fact is that faith in eternal justice and a benevolent creator demands pacifism and unconditional love towards all beings. Muhammad spent 10 years fighting in war. therefore, its impossible that he was a prophet.  period. end of story.


none of that bullshit referring to literature is needed.

Well I am not defending Muhammad but that is flawed logic bro. Moses killed people, Abraham killed people, Samuel killed, lots of prophets have and there is even a verse in The Bible that says and I quote - God is a man of war -. If there is something that all religions agree on is that God can command people to kill if deemed necessary.

[tbombz]

stop thinking in terms of what the blasphemous "bible" tells you and think of the philosophical nature behind real faith in eternal justice and an omnipotent creator.

if you believe in eternal justice and you believe that love for people is the moral imperative, then you will NEVER use violence against anyone.  if someone comes to kill you and your family... you let them come kill you and your family and you show them love while they do it. do you know why? because if there is such a thing as eternal justice then you will not have lost anything and you will gain fast entrance into eternal bliss.   the only justification for violence is a disbelief in eternity and therefore you can use violence in self defense because this is your only life. true faith rules out all violence.  

dont go back to your bible to look for a rebuttal.

[bigbobs]

What does the Bible say about Ishmael?

"he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren." When Ishmael was born, Abram was 86 years old.

That translation is debatable (http://mystic444.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/was-ishmael-a-wild-ass-man/).  Here I'm pasting a link instead of putting it in my own words because I haven't even read the link as I don't see the translation as being really relevent either way, but am sending it to you since it seems from your post that you're interested.

Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, born to him from his second wife Hagar. Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several prominent Arab tribes and being the forefather of Muhammad.[25] Muslims also believe that Muhammad was the descendant of Ishmael that would establish a great nation, as promised by God in the Old Testament.[26]

If you weren't copy and pasting, what did you mean when you typed [25] and [26]?  

It is my humble opinion that if you asked every single Muslim on the planet if they had the chance would they wipe out the Jews off the face of the earth 90% of them would say YES

Your opinion is wrong.  Islam allows Muslims to marry Jews (and Chrsitians).  Wouldn't make sense to want to annihilate from among the minority of individuals we are allowed to marry.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.—Genesis 17:20

Thanks for sharing, that strengthens my belief in Islam because it shows the Bible predicted the coming of Muhammad and described Muslims as "a great nation."  This reinforces our belief that the OT, NT and Quran are from the same divine source.

[OTHstrong]

That translation is debatable (http://mystic444.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/was-ishmael-a-wild-ass-man/).  Here I'm pasting a link instead of putting it in my own words because I haven't even read the link as I don't see the translation as being really relevent either way, but am sending it to you since it seems from your post that you're interested.

If you weren't copy and pasting, what did you mean when you typed [25] and [26]?  

Your opinion is wrong.  Islam allows Muslims to marry Jews (and Chrsitians).  Wouldn't make sense to want to annihilate from among the minority of individuals we are allowed to marry.

Thanks for sharing, that strengthens my belief in Islam because it shows the Bible predicted the coming of Muhammad and described Muslims as "a great nation."  This reinforces our belief that the OT, NT and Quran are from the same divine source.

My bad that paragraph is the only copy and paste that I did but it is what I would have wrote and I agree with it anyway. Everything else is my own words

Now as far as the great nation part is concerned Islamic nations are great nations, only a fool would believe that they are not. They are very wealthy and have great structures and historical significents of course. Now God also made Egypt a great nation, Babylonia a great nation, Assyria a great nation, Greece a great nation, Rome a great nation and they all saw their destruction at the end. So that means nothing

[OTHstrong]

stop thinking in terms of what the blasphemous "bible" tells you and think of the philosophical nature behind real faith in eternal justice and an omnipotent creator.

if you believe in eternal justice and you believe that love for people is the moral imperative, then you will NEVER use violence against anyone.  if someone comes to kill you and your family... you let them come kill you and your family and you show them love while they do it. do you know why? because if there is such a thing as eternal justice then you will not have lost anything and you will gain fast entrance into eternal bliss.   the only justification for violence is a disbelief in eternity and therefore you can use violence in self defense because this is your only life. true faith rules out all violence.  

dont go back to your bible to look for a rebuttal.

I will not use  The Bible as a rebuttal cause you do not believe in the Bible, but every major religion and every religious leader in the history of man kind would disagree with your position on this matter, nevertheless you are entitled to your own opinion but that is all it is, your opinion.

[Man of Steel]

Everyone's gotta get over this copy and paste nonsense....we live in a Google world and we're all Google warriors that copy and paste all day everyday LOL.

[OTHstrong]

Everyone's gotta get over this copy and paste nonsense....we live in a Google world and we're all Google warriors that copy and paste all day everyday LOL.

Copy and paste is OK as long as you have your own thoughts as well, this is just a cop out from being fatigue from arguing us Christians cause we are kicking butt     

[Man of Steel]

Copy and paste is OK as long as you have your own thoughts as well, this is just a cop out from being fatigue from arguing us Christians cause we are kicking butt     

Me, I sometimes put down my own words 100%, I sometimes do a blend of my words and copy and paste and sometimes someone else has written it so perfectly I don't need to add anything so it's 100% copy and paste. 

[tbombz]

I will not use  The Bible as a rebuttal cause you do not believe in the Bible, but every major religion and every religious leader in the history of man kind would disagree with your position on this matter, nevertheless you are entitled to your own opinion but that is all it is, your opinion.

when i said dont use the bible what i meant to say is do not make any referance to anything religious in nature. if you want to talk about an issue then you need to provide explanations, not simply say "because X,Y,and Z say so!". and dont copy and paste their explanation. if you hold an opinion you need to understand why you hold that opinion and you need to be able to put your opinion into your own words and explain it to others.  i have done so for you with my opinnion about pacifism and faith.  now if you wish to rebut my assertion you need to explain how im wrong and your right.

secondly, you have got to be shitting me with that generalization. first of all, your christian, and christ.. no matter what quotes or phrases you want to grab from the bible to try and prove otherwise, was a pacifist. the main core of his teachings was to turn the other cheek, love everyone even your enemies, and if someone is to torture and crucify you do not fight back but let them do it and weep for their misguided souls as you die.     and then we also have ghandi (a pacifist) martin luther king (pacifist)... i could go on and on..

true faith in eternal justice demands pacifism. period.

[bigbobs]

My bad that paragraph is the only copy and paste that I did but it is what I would have wrote and I agree with it anyway. Everything else is my own words

Now as far as the great nation part is concerned Islamic nations are great nations, only a fool would believe that they are not. They are very wealthy and have great structures and historical significents of course. Now God also made Egypt a great nation, Babylonia a great nation, Assyria a great nation, Greece a great nation, Rome a great nation and they all saw their destruction at the end. So that means nothing

But now you're concluding that the "great nation" in the quote must mean one that will be destroyed in the end, without any rationale.

In all honesty I didn't see any strong argument in your post.  It's basically summed as saying "because Ishmael was not the chosen one, his descendants got upset and therefore created a false religion some 4000 years later"

[OTHstrong]

when i said dont use the bible what i meant to say is do not make any referance to anything religious in nature. if you want to talk about an issue then you need to provide explanations, not simply say "because X,Y,and Z say so!". and dont copy and paste their explanation. if you hold an opinion you need to understand why you hold that opinion and you need to be able to put your opinion into your own words and explain it to others.  i have done so for you with my opinnion about pacifism and faith.  now if you wish to rebut my assertion you need to explain how im wrong and your right.

secondly, you have got to be shitting me with that generalization. first of all, your christian, and christ.. no matter what quotes or phrases you want to grab from the bible to try and prove otherwise, was a pacifist. the main core of his teachings was to turn the other cheek, love everyone even your enemies, and if someone is to torture and crucify you do not fight back but let them do it and weep for their misguided souls as you die.     and then we also have ghandi (a pacifist) martin luther king (pacifist)... i could go on and on..

true faith in eternal justice demands pacifism. period.

OK then your knowledge of history is completely non existent then. As a historian that I am I know and every historian on the planet would agree we would be back in the stone age if the spiritual leaders of humanity did not think killing was necessary. There where so many Pagan tribes and nations in the history of man kind that would go from village to village and exterminate everything in their path. Woman and children would be stomped on like insects. Such tribes as The Canaanites, Amorites, the Edomites, the Heathens, the Barbarians and the Saxsons just to name a few or maybe someone like you has never heard of Attila the Hun.

How about tribes that would sacrifice children in a painful manner like boiling them alive. There are still tribes that practice human sacrifice. In fact there is a group of tribe in the Amazon that bury children alive only for the fact that they are having nightmare and they believe them to have demons inside them.

So your retarded advise is to have a God that loves us to never instruct or to order or to allow men to stop these people, well well my uneducated friend this would mean we would still be in horse and buggy and there would only be a few races on the planet, everyone would be wiped out.

Your dumb thinking is the result of living in an era where the days of conquest are over but in reality every era before us fought hard to merely survive a brutal and savage world, Wake up.

[OTHstrong]

But now you're concluding that the "great nation" in the quote must mean one that will be destroyed in the end, without any rationale.

In all honesty I didn't see any strong argument in your post.  It's basically summed as saying "because Ishmael was not the chosen one, his descendants got upset and therefore created a false religion some 4000 years later"

Bro you need to study history a little bit more, no offence but you are not in my league. Ishmael lived 1850 to 1950 BC at the latest possible date so where do you get 4000 and yes Islam was started because the jealously over the true chosen people the Israelites and I stated a lot of overwhelming evidence for this, but what you failed to realize is that the sons of Ishmael tried this during the days of Nebudchadnezzar and tried it again during the Achaemenid dynasty and both times failed miserably. Finally they succeeded cause Muhammad united all Arab tribes.

[bigbobs]

Bro you need to study history a little bit more, no offence but you are not in my league. Ishmael lived 1850 to 1950 BC at the latest possible date so where do you get 4000 and yes Islam was started because the jealously over the true chosen people the Israelites and I stated a lot of overwhelming evidence for this, but what you failed to realize is that the sons of Ishmael tried this during the days of Nebudchadnezzar and tried it again during the Achaemenid dynasty and both times failed miserably. Finally they succeeded cause Muhammad united all Arab tribes.

OK so you got me on history or the # of years, doesn't change the argument though, or lack thereof  

All you're doing here is stating a result (Islam) and then trying to find a motive (albeit 2500 years prior to the Quran), and then concluding that the end result must be fabricated due to the motive.  Logically this is very weak reasoning.

[OTHstrong]

OK so you got me on history or the # of years, doesn't change the argument though, or lack thereof  

All you're doing here is stating a result (Islam) and then trying to find a motive (albeit 2500 years prior to the Quran), and then concluding that the end result must be fabricated due to the motive.  Logically this is very weak reasoning.

Well I do not think it is a weak argument considering I only brushed the surface there are 100s of other points that lead me to believe this. I did not want to spoil all the fun just yet bro 

I thought i would reserve some amo for later, lol.. I mean it all fits in like a glove. The covenant with Abraham had to be past down to someone from his lineage and for a 13 year period it seemed like it was going to Ishmael. This is like giving you a check for a 100 billion dollars and about 10 seconds before you cash it I cancel the check, that would not result in a happy camper here. Of course you would do everything possible to get the check back. This is precisely what the Arabs did, they created Islam in a mass delusion and the followers are fully aware of the entire story so of course they are going to like the idea and follow it