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Author Topic: "scripture says this!!! scripture says that!!" <-- not an argument for anything  (Read 2541 times)
tbombz
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« on: October 15, 2012, 06:09:35 PM »

who gives a fuck what scripture says about anything. if you have found some wisdom in scripture, then put it into your own words and describe that wisdom to us all. then we can talk about its validity and worth in rational terms. simply saying "because i told you so" (because scripture says its so) isnt any argument at all. nor is it grounds for a belief.
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 06:13:09 PM »

Then your knowledge of God comes from your own whims and desires, your own opinions and your own man made assumptions.

It's like you saying you don't need prophets or messengers. Or whatever they did, said, you don't care.

The thing is, determining which and what of the scriptures is truthful and which is not. It is one of the things that made me leave christianity and embrace islam. I studied various religions of the world including their scriptures. Heck even hinduism (did you know they actually believe ultimately there is only one God? But that the brahman priests ultimately created the caste system, idolatry amongst other things to control people).
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 06:16:23 PM »

^^^^  Grin   Grin   Grin   Grin   Grin

ahmed, if i ever meet you in real life, im going to start spitting out some wise quotes to you about free will, love, morality, and eternity.. and then im going to tell you that i am heaven sent and the holy messenger of god and that you must dedicate your life to my service because it is gods will


... based on your belief in scriptures, i have absolutely no doubt youll believe what i tell you and convert to "tbombzism" and start spreading my word.   because afterall, if you hear some wise shit somewhere and the source of it claims to be divine, then that shit is divine bro!!!!    Grin   Grin   Grin
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 06:32:41 PM »

^^^^  Grin   Grin   Grin   Grin   Grin

ahmed, if i ever meet you in real life, im going to start spitting out some wise quotes to you about free will, love, morality, and eternity.. and then im going to tell you that i am heaven sent and the holy messenger of god and that you must dedicate your life to my service because it is gods will


... based on your belief in scriptures, i have absolutely no doubt youll believe what i tell you and convert to "tbombzism" and start spreading my word.   because afterall, if you hear some wise shit somewhere and the source of it claims to be divine, then that shit is divine bro!!!!    Grin   Grin   Grin

shows just how brutally elementary your understanding is of why we believe what we do
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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 06:44:48 PM »

LOL

1) generations upon generations have all believed - what better proof is there than that ? (consensus)
2) when i read the words on the pages my heart grows warm and they speak directly to my soul
3) i have had experiences in my life that were far too profound to be merely coincidence and i take them as proof of god

^^^ those three reason form pretty much the bulk of the reasoning for why people believe in scriptures.

and they are absolutely horrible reasons for doing so.

(although they are all fairly good reasons for assuming that a god of some kind does truly exist..)
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 07:48:00 PM »

who gives a fuck what scripture says about anything. if you have found some wisdom in scripture, then put it into your own words and describe that wisdom to us all. then we can talk about its validity and worth in rational terms. simply saying "because i told you so" (because scripture says its so) isnt any argument at all. nor is it grounds for a belief.

For a Christian it's the Holy Spirit being made manifest and tangible in their life that brings so much life to the scripture; hence we refer to the bible as "the living word". 

We don't "become our own God" or "become our own truth".....we allow God to be God and truth.
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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 07:52:35 PM »

For a Christian it's the Holy Spirit being made manifest and tangible in their life that brings so much life to the scripture; hence we refer to the bible as "the living word". 

We don't "become our own God" or "become our own truth".....we allow God to be God and truth.
stop with the rhetoric and explain yourself in non-religious terms.  to me what you are saying is that certain life events are so profound and spiritually meaningful to be merely coincidence and you take these experiences to be proof of scripture. what i am saying is that while those experiences may be very real and are certainly an indication that god probably exists, they are in no way an indication that scripture is divine in nature. even if the experience relates to something you read in the bible in a direct way, that only means that whoever wrote the bible was also a child of god and able to come to wise conclusions.. it means nothing about divine nature of the bible.
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 08:22:14 PM »

stop with the rhetoric and explain yourself in non-religious terms.  to me what you are saying is that certain life events are so profound and spiritually meaningful to be merely coincidence and you take these experiences to be proof of scripture. what i am saying is that while those experiences may be very real and are certainly an indication that god probably exists, they are in no way an indication that scripture is divine in nature. even if the experience relates to something you read in the bible in a direct way, that only means that whoever wrote the bible was also a child of god and able to come to wise conclusions.. it means nothing about divine nature of the bible.

Maybe it would be better if you tell me which religious terms from my post above are giving you problems.
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 09:21:50 PM »

its whatever man. i just told you exactly what you were talking about and broke it down for you so you could see what was going on and why you are wrong to take it as proof of the bible being divine.  if it hasnt hit you yet, it will hit you eventually. maybe not untill after your dead and you find out the hard way and realize you could have known a long time before if you would have been receptive to it.
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 10:16:22 PM »

^^^^  Grin   Grin   Grin   Grin   Grin

ahmed, if i ever meet you in real life, im going to start spitting out some wise quotes to you about free will, love, morality, and eternity.. and then im going to tell you that i am heaven sent and the holy messenger of god and that you must dedicate your life to my service because it is gods will


... based on your belief in scriptures, i have absolutely no doubt youll believe what i tell you and convert to "tbombzism" and start spreading my word.   because afterall, if you hear some wise shit somewhere and the source of it claims to be divine, then that shit is divine bro!!!!    Grin   Grin   Grin
I lol'd. Seriously though, the problem with the holy books is that they're written by men, and therefore are all suspect.
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2012, 06:57:50 AM »

its whatever man. i just told you exactly what you were talking about and broke it down for you so you could see what was going on and why you are wrong to take it as proof of the bible being divine.  if it hasnt hit you yet, it will hit you eventually. maybe not untill after your dead and you find out the hard way and realize you could have known a long time before if you would have been receptive to it.

Well, I am willing to die for my beliefs......guess I'll just have to learn the hard way.  Although, what you posted previously actually affirms the divine authority and nature of scripture.
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2012, 03:01:48 AM »

I lol'd. Seriously though, the problem with the holy books is that they're written by men, and therefore are all suspect.

+1
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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2012, 02:55:46 AM »

Well, I am willing to die for my beliefs......guess I'll just have to learn the hard way.  Although, what you posted previously actually affirms the divine authority and nature of scripture.
no it doesnt!  anytime you hear anything beautiful and true your heart grows warm, this is true whether the truth comes from the mouth of a homeless man or from a book called the bible!  events of spiritual growth and significance that cant be merely coincidence do not speak to the truth of scripture but to the truth of god!  god and scripture are two different things! one was created by man, the other created man! guess which is which! LOL
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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2012, 02:57:54 AM »



read it !!!!

LOL

1) generations upon generations have all believed - what better proof is there than that ? (consensus)
2) when i read the words on the pages my heart grows warm and they speak directly to my soul
3) i have had experiences in my life that were far too profound to be merely coincidence and i take them as proof of god

^^^ those three reason form pretty much the bulk of the reasoning for why people believe in scriptures.

and they are absolutely horrible reasons for doing so.

(although they are all fairly good reasons for assuming that a god of some kind does truly exist..)
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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2012, 06:02:23 AM »

Then your knowledge of God comes from your own whims and desires, your own opinions and your own man made assumptions.

It's like you saying you don't need prophets or messengers. Or whatever they did, said, you don't care.

The thing is, determining which and what of the scriptures is truthful and which is not. It is one of the things that made me leave christianity and embrace islam. I studied various religions of the world including their scriptures. Heck even hinduism (did you know they actually believe ultimately there is only one God? But that the brahman priests ultimately created the caste system, idolatry amongst other things to control people).
Yeah take that! Muslims prefer take advice from a pedo who was a prophet without a prophecy! who preached hatred, violence and war.  Fuck Yeah!  Who the hell thinks we need prophets or messengers?  WTF  If you weren't being so serious, the things you believe are incredibly funny to people who don't suffer from delusion.
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2012, 09:38:34 AM »

no it doesnt!  anytime you hear anything beautiful and true your heart grows warm, this is true whether the truth comes from the mouth of a homeless man or from a book called the bible!  events of spiritual growth and significance that cant be merely coincidence do not speak to the truth of scripture but to the truth of god!  god and scripture are two different things! one was created by man, the other created man! guess which is which! LOL

I understand you think you have the mechanics and philosophy all worked out, but you're missing the actual experience itself that gives the true perspective.  I also understand that you don't think you need the actual experience to understand exactly what's happening either.  I also understand that your combination of logical rationale and an "air tight" argument dismiss the validity of simple "emotional appeals".  I also understand that you don't see the connection between the personal experience and the affirmation of the bible being the divine, living word of God.  I've seen time and again as atheists and agnostics reduce or dismiss completely legitimate, life-altering experiences with a wave of the philosophical wand and a dash of blind arrogance.
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2012, 12:48:36 PM »

I understand you think you have the mechanics and philosophy all worked out, but you're missing the actual experience itself that gives the true perspective.  I also understand that you don't think you need the actual experience to understand exactly what's happening either.  I also understand that your combination of logical rationale and an "air tight" argument dismiss the validity of simple "emotional appeals".  I also understand that you don't see the connection between the personal experience and the affirmation of the bible being the divine, living word of God.  I've seen time and again as atheists and agnostics reduce or dismiss completely legitimate, life-altering experiences with a wave of the philosophical wand and a dash of blind arrogance.
your extremely arrogant to assume i havent experienced what i speak about. your also very foolish to think that i could know about those experiences without having experienced them myself.  there are portions of the bible that when i read my entire body fills with warmth, tears come to my eyes, and i see the profound truth in the message. mainly the parts about what jesus supposedly said. there have been many events in my life that have been extremely profound and personal that undoubtedly were the work of the universe speaking to me in a personal way to teach me a life lesson that is invaluable and proof of a divine being guiding my life and teaching me. my own father believes in the bible and i only see one method of finding truth that is more logical than historical consensus and thus see a very strong argument for believin in scripture based upon that.


take that into consideration and then go back and read what i have wrote previously in this thread and others.  dont be a fool.
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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2012, 04:06:13 PM »

your extremely arrogant to assume i havent experienced what i speak about. your also very foolish to think that i could know about those experiences without having experienced them myself.  there are portions of the bible that when i read my entire body fills with warmth, tears come to my eyes, and i see the profound truth in the message. mainly the parts about what jesus supposedly said. there have been many events in my life that have been extremely profound and personal that undoubtedly were the work of the universe speaking to me in a personal way to teach me a life lesson that is invaluable and proof of a divine being guiding my life and teaching me. my own father believes in the bible and i only see one method of finding truth that is more logical than historical consensus and thus see a very strong argument for believin in scripture based upon that.


take that into consideration and then go back and read what i have wrote previously in this thread and others.  dont be a fool.

One thing I am not is extremely arrogant; unfortunately, I am misled from time to time.  Now, the vast majority of these threads are often nonbelievers speaking to believers.  In some instances, you have a nonbeliever making bold assertions about how a believer (typically a Christian) truly "interacts" with their "flying spaghetti monster of choice".  More generically, when speaking of emotional appeals by the believer, the nonbeliever will rationalize away and/or define what the experience was and wasn't while having no personal experience or perspective whatsoever with which to make such assertions.  Typically it's a casual dismissal of the experience with nonchalant handwaving. 

In this instance we have some form of believer (not necessarily an agnostic) that has opted for more of a "bait and switch" type approach (at least that's how it appears to me at first blush).  Now admittedly, I do recall other instances outside of this board in which you have indicated some form of belief in a deity so I apologize that I have forgotten that.  Still, based on this thread, you believe in some form of divine guidance in your life, but you're uncertain of what that is?  You love the gospels and Christ's words, but I'm assuming then that you don't belief Christ is divine?  Still, you acknowledge a believer's personal, tangible experiences with the divine as genuine, but you don't acknowledge the experience as validation for the divine nature of scripture.  Simply put, I won't be able to convince you otherwise.  My opinion, you need to reconcile who/what that divine being is first?  Do you belief that Christ is divine...the Son of God?  If you don't, we have a fundamental disconnect.
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« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2012, 04:31:10 PM »

God is not a man that he is tempted by the devil his own creation

God is not a man that he is in the womb of a woman and born

God is not a man that he eats, pees, poos and sleeps.

God is not a man that he prays to 'himself'

God is not a man that he says he doesn't know something

God is not a man that he changes his mind or deceives or does not fulfill promises


Jesus (pbuh) is a man Smiley

People run away from christianity not because it offers 'do whatever you want you are saved' but because it is irrational blind faith.

Faith without rational or intellect is blind faith.
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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2012, 07:03:40 PM »

God is not a man that he is tempted by the devil his own creation

God is not a man that he is in the womb of a woman and born

God is not a man that he eats, pees, poos and sleeps.

God is not a man that he prays to 'himself'

God is not a man that he says he doesn't know something

God is not a man that he changes his mind or deceives or does not fulfill promises


Jesus (pbuh) is a man Smiley

People run away from christianity not because it offers 'do whatever you want you are saved' but because it is irrational blind faith.

Faith without rational or intellect is blind faith.

Mohammed was a misogynistic pedophile murderer.  Islam is for idiots that do what they desire and claim some false deity called "allah" (no pbuh) can't see them in their special room where they commit all manner of perverse debauchery because they are weaklings.

By the way, this whole "pbuh" crap is a fairly recent piece of work designed to make you perverts seem somehow "reverent" and full of faith.

No wonder some people mistake "faith" for poop.  You are full of it alright. 

Here to help.
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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2012, 09:03:51 PM »

One thing I am not is extremely arrogant; unfortunately, I am misled from time to time.  Now, the vast majority of these threads are often nonbelievers speaking to believers.  In some instances, you have a nonbeliever making bold assertions about how a believer (typically a Christian) truly "interacts" with their "flying spaghetti monster of choice".  More generically, when speaking of emotional appeals by the believer, the nonbeliever will rationalize away and/or define what the experience was and wasn't while having no personal experience or perspective whatsoever with which to make such assertions.  Typically it's a casual dismissal of the experience with nonchalant handwaving. 

In this instance we have some form of believer (not necessarily an agnostic) that has opted for more of a "bait and switch" type approach (at least that's how it appears to me at first blush).  Now admittedly, I do recall other instances outside of this board in which you have indicated some form of belief in a deity so I apologize that I have forgotten that.  Still, based on this thread, you believe in some form of divine guidance in your life, but you're uncertain of what that is?  You love the gospels and Christ's words, but I'm assuming then that you don't belief Christ is divine?  Still, you acknowledge a believer's personal, tangible experiences with the divine as genuine, but you don't acknowledge the experience as validation for the divine nature of scripture.  Simply put, I won't be able to convince you otherwise.  My opinion, you need to reconcile who/what that divine being is first?  Do you belief that Christ is divine...the Son of God?  If you don't, we have a fundamental disconnect.
i hope you read this entire post

why are you connecting "personal, tangible experiences with the divine"  with  "validation for the divine nature of scripture" ??

thats the issue!!!!

do i "believe in god"??   depends on what you mean by "believe"!!  because absolutely NO ONE knows if God exists or not. but i THINK god does exist. 

do i love the gospels and the story of christ? no. i find the supposed teachings and life of christ to be extremely beautiful and certainly an image of God's will if there ever was one.  however, the gospels are filled with horseshit (and a little wisdom here and there).

now, do i think christ is divine and the son of god?  how can i even answer that when i have no idea if the man ever even actually existed!!!  do you realize how dishonest it is for a person to claim such knowledge when they never even met the guy?!?!

now, when it comes to personal experiences that solidify a "belief" in God..   these are strong evidence.. BUT NOT "PROOF"!  by the very nature of these experiences they are fleeting, leaving one uncertain of whether they were actually real or just imagined.  you need to examine that fact and think about the nature of the god which would come to you in such a manner. would that god want you to know for certain of his existence, if when he comes to you in comes in such a form? think about it. !!!!!!

when it comes to reading the scriptures, and having personal experiences that relate to words in those books, and taking those experiences as proof of their divine nature... NO NO NO NO NO!!!..  you see..  if wisdom exists.. then when you hear it.. when you understand it.. you will recieve it as such.  this is true whether it comes from the mouth of god or from the homeless guy down on the street corner.  just because you read some wisdom in the scripture and then later have a divine experience which confirms the wisdom you found in the scripture, does not mean the scripture is divine but only that wisdom can be found in the scripture!!!  do you see the difference!!??!!??!!??

 
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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2012, 09:41:46 PM »

God is not a man that he is tempted by the devil his own creation

God is not a man that he is in the womb of a woman and born

God is not a man that he eats, pees, poos and sleeps.

God is not a man that he prays to 'himself'

God is not a man that he says he doesn't know something

God is not a man that he changes his mind or deceives or does not fulfill promises


Jesus (pbuh) is a man Smiley

People run away from christianity not because it offers 'do whatever you want you are saved' but because it is irrational blind faith.

Faith without rational or intellect is blind faith.

Islam is blind faith as well- beleiving an opportunist who convinced his foolish followers that he spoke to god in a cave. Hmm....nothing suspicious about that.

God is mans creation to comfort him during those cold nights. SOrt of like santa claus. Be good or no gifts for you. Children outgrow such fairy tales upon reaching adulthood. Then again. Achmet is still a child clinging to his  false santa.
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2012, 09:52:26 PM »


God is mans creation to comfort him during those cold nights.

that idea resides only in shallow minds  Wink
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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2012, 10:19:55 PM »

Actually I denounced santa clause and the easter bunny early on in life Smiley

I denounce all false deities, but I do not denounce God almighty.

What does life resort to? Believing that all this and ourselves are an accident and coincidence, as atheists preach that we come from monkies that come from rodents, that come from sea creatures that come from chemical accidents that come from a big accident over billions of years. Or that we are created, designed, with purpose and function as our own bodies speak to us.

Just taking the human being to account. Take away the heart, we do not function. Take away the brain we do not function. Take away the liver we do not function. Take away the lungs we do not function. Take away blood we do not function. Take away nutrition (food/water), we seize to exist.

We are created dependant and limited so that we remember our place who we are and who created us.

It is merely human arrogance that denounces God, thinking we are 'mighty' because we scratched a little bit of worldly knowledge. Yet even if we don't know all that is in us and around us still remains even if we did not attain knowledge of it. If we perish and all material existance periishes, that knowledge remains with God who is eternal and unbegottn, with no beginning and no end.
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2012, 10:25:12 PM »

Actually I denounced santa clause and the easter bunny early on in life Smiley

I denounce all false deities, but I do not denounce God almighty.

What does life resort to? Believing that all this and ourselves are an accident and coincidence, as atheists preach that we come from monkies that come from rodents, that come from sea creatures that come from chemical accidents that come from a big accident over billions of years. Or that we are created, designed, with purpose and function as our own bodies speak to us.

Just taking the human being to account. Take away the heart, we do not function. Take away the brain we do not function. Take away the liver we do not function. Take away the lungs we do not function. Take away blood we do not function. Take away nutrition (food/water), we seize to exist.

We are created dependant and limited so that we remember our place who we are and who created us.

You believe in allah...a human created santa claus.

God created everyone but he himself is separate from rules. Whats the line for that? Oh god is so incredible that he doesnt  fall into the same set of rules. He himself wasnt created although everything else has to be created by someone. Bullshit from the zealots who have no proper answer other than a mystical one.

Muhammed was a opportunist. He got a lot of people to buy into the islamic piramid scheme.
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