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Author Topic: Read the book of Matthew  (Read 7990 times)
a_ahmed
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« Reply #125 on: January 16, 2013, 01:59:55 PM »

John 11:41-42
41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me. 42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.”

What does this prove? That They have a psychic connection and are one? No not at all.

As in the qur'an it says “And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge)” [Qaaf 50:16]

That's it. God knows what is in us, what we think, what we wish upon, what we are thankful for, what we intend.

Jesus affirming his loyalty to God does not make him God lol... all messengers of God spoke about being sent by God for the one and same purpose, guiding people to the truth, worshipping God, avoding evil and doing good. Guidance for mankind.

Your statement even goes against you "That you sent me" well well... doesn't say that "I sent myself" does it.

You love to use elusive quotes and interpret them in weird ways, yet the reality is the scripture proves far more what Islam indicates than what you are trying to say you believe. Jesus over and over differentiates himself from God and that's not exactly in your favor.

When I say differentiates I mean they are NOT the same, jesus is NOT God, but a servant of God. THe quote 'same in purpose' well all messengers have the same purpose sent by God. You see how much more sense that makes than saying OH that must mean Jesus is God if he is in the same purpose as God.
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« Reply #126 on: January 16, 2013, 02:03:04 PM »

Loco I'm going to respond to your quotes which you asked me to quite a while ago, but before I do I want to clarify that there's no denying that yes there are some instances of people in the Bible having called Jesus God, but not a single declaration/quote from Jesus himself making this claim.  Someone else claiming that Jesus is God, despite his own denying of it on several  other occasions, does not form as evidence of his divinity.

As I stated at the start of this post, this comes back to the fact that some others in the Bible referred to Jesus as God, but nowhere did Jesus claim it.

bigbobs,

So you do admit that many people called Jesus God to his face, according to the Bible.  Please tell me why did Jesus not correct them or discourage them if they were wrong about him?  What of the people who worshiped him?  Jesus never stopped them.  

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Why did Jesus not correct Thomas?  Why did Jesus not stop Thomas from worshiping him?  Why did Jesus not say "I am not God"?

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

John 9:38-39
38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

If Jesus were a mere prophet of God, he would have immediately stopped any worship directed at him.  Even angels do this:

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Now that you see Jesus allowed people to worship him, and now hat you have admitted that people called Jesus God to his face, please find me in the Bible where Jesus is quoted saying "I am not God."
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #127 on: January 16, 2013, 02:19:54 PM »

Still even for sake of argument if that were true it does not indicate Jesus told them to worship him or proclaimed himself to be literally God lol.

Again, it's really hard to have any credibility in the verses you post as they are once again contradicted and confusing from other verses which totally do 180 turns on the very things you are trying to preach.

In the end though, there's far more verses of Jesus teaching others worshipping God than all the elusive wanabe verses of Jesus being god.

To me it's an epic fail that 'god' supposedly does not know things and is supposedly 'god'.

Or God worships himself, or whatever non-sense.

ALSO lol, I doubt Jesus said "GREETINGS" lol.. as the actual greeting of the Jews was shalom aleykum like muslims say. That's why in masses we used to say "peace be upon you", "and peace be with you". Ever wonder why? lol.

Interestingly enough this is the greeting of Muslims peace be upon you. Assalamu Alaikum.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #128 on: January 16, 2013, 02:22:26 PM »

AND to prove how you own yourself:

Mattityahu 28:9 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)


Mattityahu 28:9
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

 And hinei! Moshiach met them, saying Shalom Aleichem. And they came up and took hold of his feet and fell prostrate before him.

One cannot even TRUST what you post based on translation. I checked a few different translations and all said weird 'greetings', 'hail', 'hello' lol... and here we are... shalom aleichem... just as I said Smiley

Falling prostrate before him and translating that as 'worshipping him'. Saying HELLO, or HAIL, or GREETINGS, instead of shalom aleichem. Smiley
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« Reply #129 on: January 16, 2013, 02:28:17 PM »

AND to prove how you own yourself:

Mattityahu 28:9 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)


Mattityahu 28:9
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

 And hinei! Moshiach met them, saying Shalom Aleichem. And they came up and took hold of his feet and fell prostrate before him.

One cannot even TRUST what you post based on translation. I checked a few different translations and all said weird 'greetings', 'hail', 'hello' lol... and here we are... shalom aleichem... just as I said Smiley

Falling prostrate before him and translating that as 'worshipping him'. Saying HELLO, or HAIL, or GREETINGS, instead of shalom aleichem. Smiley

Actually, you just owned yourself.  Shalom is a greeting.  So translating it into English as Jesus saying "Greetings" is no problem at all.

And why would they fall prostrate before him if not to worship him?  Did they all just trip and fall at the same time?   Roll Eyes

And you just admitted that the verses I posted do support Jesus Christs deity, by saying that you know of other verses which contradict the ones I posted.  
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #130 on: January 16, 2013, 02:29:25 PM »

Yochanan 9:38-39
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
38 And the man said, Ani ma’amin, Adoni. And he fell down prostrate before him.
39 And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said, For the sake of Mishpat, I came into the Olam Hazeh, that the ones who are ivrim (blind ones) may see, and the ones seeing may become ivrim.

Same deal here! hah! Deliberate mistranslations! How unsurprising!

Actually, you just owned yourself.  Shalom is a greeting.  So translating it into English as Jesus saying "Greetings" is no problem at all.

And why would they fall prostrate before him if not to worship him?  Did they all just trip and fall at the same time?   Roll Eyes

And you just admitted that the verses I posted do support Jesus Christs deity, by saying that you know of other verses which contradict the ones I posted.  

No actually Shalom means peace and the full greeting is Shalom Aleichum, you just owned yourself in ignorance as usual.

sha·lom  
/SHäˈlōm/
Exclamation
Used as salutation by Jews at meeting or parting, meaning “peace.”.


Just as your ignorance of thinking God in the royal plural indicates the trinity. As usual ignorance and arrogance.

Oh small bit you may also not know. Aleichum is plural too see the um at the end. It is proper to say peace be upon you in the plural to people so in respect instead of saying you in the singular to the person because if there are many people in the gathering it addresses everyone.

The same is in Arabic with Alaikum (you plural) vs addressing someone in the singular.

It is one of many beauties of these semetic languages.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #131 on: January 16, 2013, 02:34:47 PM »

Also this small tid bit came to me efore being Muslim. As during mass we used to say peace be upon you and also with you when entering/leaving. I found it indeed a beautiful greeting when coming for mass.

It made me wonder, then as I was learning about Islam and came upon this very same fact that Jews say the same thing and that JESUS (pbuh) used to say the same thing. A simple beautiful revelation.
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« Reply #132 on: January 16, 2013, 02:34:50 PM »

Yochanan 9:38-39
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
38 And the man said, Ani ma’amin, Adoni. And he fell down prostrate before him.
39 And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said, For the sake of Mishpat, I came into the Olam Hazeh, that the ones who are ivrim (blind ones) may see, and the ones seeing may become ivrim.

Same deal here! hah! Deliberate mistranslations! How unsurprising!

No actually Shalom means peace and the full greeting is Shalom Aleichum, you just owned yourself in ignorance as usual.

sha·lom 
/SHäˈlōm/
Exclamation
Used as salutation by Jews at meeting or parting, meaning “peace.”.


Just as your ignorance of thinking God in the royal plural indicates the trinity. As usual ignorance and arrogance.

You really love to argue for the sake of argument, don't you?    Roll Eyes

Shalom (שָׁלוֹם) (Sephardic Hebrew/Israeli Hebrew: shalom; Ashkenazi Hebrew/Yiddish: sholom, sholem, shoilem, shulem) is a Hebrew word meaning peace, completeness, Prosperity, and welfare and can be used idiomatically to mean both hello and goodbye.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalom

And why would they fall prostrate before him if not to worship him?  Did they all just trip and fall at the same time?    Roll Eyes

And you just admitted that the verses I posted do support Jesus Christs deity, by saying that you know of other verses which contradict the ones I posted.  


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« Reply #133 on: January 16, 2013, 02:35:37 PM »

lol argue all you want shalom means peace not hello or good bye, it is for the lame English speaking crowd. The very link you posted right off the bat confirms what I said. It means PEACE.

Still shows how things are mistranslated. What is more important is how prostrating or falling down was translated as WORSHIPPED him. Smiley Right before looking it up, I was like I bet Jesus didn't actually say HAIL or GREETINGS as some translations put it as I KNOW the greeting was shalom aleichum. However my intention was to showcase the 'worshipped him'


People fell before Muhammad (pbuh) and at his feet too. That does not mean they worshipped him as God.
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« Reply #134 on: January 16, 2013, 02:39:55 PM »

lol argue all you want shalom means peace not hello or good bye, it is for the lame English speaking crowd. The very link you posted right off the bat confirms what I said. It means PEACE.

Still shows how things are mistranslated. What is more important is how prostrating or falling down was translated as WORSHIPPED him. Smiley


People fell before Muhammad (pbuh) and at his feet too. That does not mean they worshipped him as God.

LOL

Shalom is a greeting.  Now you are just trolling, so I'll ignore you and proceed to debate the other Muslims on the board, who seem genuinely willing to debate and not just argue and insult.
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« Reply #135 on: January 16, 2013, 02:40:23 PM »

Mattityahu 14:33
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
33 And the ones in the sirah (boat) fell down before Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, saying, Beemes (Actually) you are the Ben HaElohim!

"Worshipped him" huh?

So your argument just fell hard.

I just don't see any credibility of you posting verses whether it's due to problems of translations or various versions of scripture or bibles, or whether due to the fact that other verses completely do 180 turns destroying your arguments.
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« Reply #136 on: January 16, 2013, 02:43:08 PM »

Loco I'm going to respond to your quotes which you asked me to quite a while ago, but before I do I want to clarify that there's no denying that yes there are some instances of people in the Bible having called Jesus God, but not a single declaration/quote from Jesus himself making this claim.  Someone else claiming that Jesus is God, despite his own denying of it on several  other occasions, does not form as evidence of his divinity.

As I stated at the start of this post, this comes back to the fact that some others in the Bible referred to Jesus as God, but nowhere did Jesus claim it.

bigbobs,

So you do admit that many people called Jesus God to his face, according to the Bible.  Please tell me why did Jesus not correct them or discourage them if they were wrong about him?  What of the people who worshiped him?  Jesus never stopped them. 

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Why did Jesus not correct Thomas?  Why did Jesus not stop Thomas from worshiping him?  Why did Jesus not say "I am not God"?

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

John 9:38-39
38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

If Jesus were a mere prophet of God, he would have immediately stopped any worship directed at him.  Even angels do this:

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Now that you see Jesus allowed people to worship him, and now hat you have admitted that people called Jesus God to his face, please find me in the Bible where Jesus is quoted saying "I am not God."
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« Reply #137 on: January 16, 2013, 02:45:44 PM »

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

My loco... oh my God. (Shock from seeing loco being alive after assuming he was dead/gone).

See how that can be interpreted too Wink
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« Reply #138 on: January 16, 2013, 04:10:22 PM »


So you do admit that many people called Jesus God to his face, according to the Bible.  Please tell me why did Jesus not correct them or discourage them if they were wrong about him?  

So that's your strong evidence that Jesus is God?  That others called him that in a few verses and of the Biblical verses we have today none document Jesus denying it in response?  That in combination with the fact that many people called him a Man and Prophet, and more importantly Jesus referred to himself as a Man as well.  You're grasping at straws.


What of the people who worshiped him?  Jesus never stopped them.  


What about Peter?  He is "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 - does that make Peter God?  The word translated to "woshipped" here and in referencing to people "worhsipping" Jesus is Proskuneo, which could also mean bowing to.  Similarly Abigal also fell on her face before David and bowed in 1 Samuel 25:23.  Does that make Abigail God?

The true word for woship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but none towards Jesus.
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« Reply #139 on: January 16, 2013, 04:16:58 PM »

You know that's the funny thing. The worshipped translation vs the fell down or bowed down etc.. just as I was pointing out but he completely ignored what I said and just copy pasted the same stuff again as if it makes it anymore true if he keeps copy pasting it again and again :/

As I told him even for sake of argument lets agree its TRUE lol... IF people worshipped Jesus lol there still lays the problem with the fact that Jesus NEVER said "WORSHIP ME", "I JESUS I AM YOUR GOD" or anything like that.

Ah never ending story of elusive verses and manipulated translations.
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« Reply #140 on: January 16, 2013, 04:20:21 PM »

You know that's the funny thing. The worshipped translation vs the fell down or bowed down etc.. just as I was pointing out but he completely ignored what I said and just copy pasted the same stuff again as if it makes it anymore true if he keeps copy pasting it again and again :/

As I told him even for sake of argument lets agree its TRUE lol... IF people worshipped Jesus lol there still lays the problem with the fact that Jesus NEVER said "WORSHIP ME", "I JESUS I AM YOUR GOD" or anything like that.

Ah never ending story of elusive verses and manipulated translations.

Yup, like I said earlier, grasping at straws Smiley  And yes I also noticed loco likes to keep repasting the same verses even after his interpretation of them has been refuted already.
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« Reply #141 on: January 16, 2013, 04:26:10 PM »

Christians worship one God and Christianity is monotheistic.  We serve a single God whose transcendent, eternal being is represented by 3 coequal, coeternal persons.  Please keep in mind that the term "persons" should not be considered or treated in a human capacity.  This is a means to define the trinitarian essence of God for the sake of human understanding.  God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit are not each 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 of God or 1+1+1=1 (fallacy).....mathematically its better expressed as 1x1x1=1.  The trinity of God is not 3 separate deities.  Think of it in terms of time...past, present and future.  We don't have 3 separate "times", we just have time.  Time is again expressed in three coequal parts...past, present and future.  God is eternal, God is one.  The term "trinity" is not found in scripture, but the essence of God being expressed in the trinity of father, son and spirit is absolutely revealed in scripture.  Believers have attempted to capture that under the umbrella of the term "trinity".  Coining term "trinity" did not "invent the trinity".  The 3rd century councils did not invent the "trinity".  Paul did not "invent the trinity".  Scripture reveals the trinity.  Christ revealed the trinity.  Christ revealed his message to Paul via divine revelation.  The disciples affirmed Paul's ministry.  Do sects of believers deny the trinity?  Yes.  Are they correct?  No.  Are there debates amongs differing sects of virtually every religion/theology?  Yes.

I appreciate you trying to explain your interpretation but you do realize that this doesn't make sense to people with no prior knowledge of or bias towards believing in the Trinity?  The reasonable interpretation is that God is One (the "father" in the Bible) and that means there is no room for Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be God as well.  

You mentioned "God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit" - does the Bible actually contain this phrase or are you inserting "God the" before each of father, son and holy spirit?  

The time (past, present future) example is not analogous at all because we don't have instances of the past interacting with the future or vice versa.  
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« Reply #142 on: January 16, 2013, 04:33:56 PM »

John 5:19-23
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
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« Reply #143 on: January 16, 2013, 04:52:53 PM »

Also to add to what you said 1x1x1=1

So does 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 ad infinitum = 1

So.... lol Smiley

This is what it comes down to really this is what the church fathers came up with, and I forget his name, but the same dude who came up with this idea, near his dying time pretty much said he believed less and less in it as time went on (made no sense):



Really though if you look at the surface all the explanations you come up to try to explain the trinity are conjectures. The trinity itself was not thought by Jesus and we know from history that it was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.

As I already pointed out from encyclopedias... it was 300 years after Jesus that the topic of discussion of WHO Jesus was/is and WHO God is began being debated... THEN 100 years after that, 400 years after Jesus did even the holy spirit come into debate and the whole trinity as a whole...

Amongst other debates such as whether to replace pass over with easter and so on and so on... History speaks volumes to the truth of what is true and not.

Do you know the funny thing? In grade 7 or was it grade 8 we were asked to memorize the nicene creed.. AND we were asked to WRITE OUR OWN VERSION lol no joke.. this was our class home work.. I remember it still...

In high school we expanded further on these things... so you see even in catholic school we are thought when and how these things are invented... yet... in the end when we start ASKING questions we are told "have faith", but I don't believe in blind faith in something that can be understood and known as false..

If you tell a lie a thousand times even if people believe it, it still remains a lie... And even if you write numerous pages upon pages of explanations to justify it, it still remains a lie.
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« Reply #144 on: January 17, 2013, 12:36:52 AM »

Also to add to what you said 1x1x1=1

So does 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 ad infinitum = 1

So.... lol Smiley

This is what it comes down to really this is what the church fathers came up with, and I forget his name, but the same dude who came up with this idea, near his dying time pretty much said he believed less and less in it as time went on (made no sense):



Really though if you look at the surface all the explanations you come up to try to explain the trinity are conjectures. The trinity itself was not thought by Jesus and we know from history that it was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.

As I already pointed out from encyclopedias... it was 300 years after Jesus that the topic of discussion of WHO Jesus was/is and WHO God is began being debated... THEN 100 years after that, 400 years after Jesus did even the holy spirit come into debate and the whole trinity as a whole...

Amongst other debates such as whether to replace pass over with easter and so on and so on... History speaks volumes to the truth of what is true and not.

Do you know the funny thing? In grade 7 or was it grade 8 we were asked to memorize the nicene creed.. AND we were asked to WRITE OUR OWN VERSION lol no joke.. this was our class home work.. I remember it still...

In high school we expanded further on these things... so you see even in catholic school we are thought when and how these things are invented... yet... in the end when we start ASKING questions we are told "have faith", but I don't believe in blind faith in something that can be understood and known as false..

If you tell a lie a thousand times even if people believe it, it still remains a lie... And even if you write numerous pages upon pages of explanations to justify it, it still remains a lie.

You do know that Arian Christians viewed the Trinity as a Hierarchy of three.....God, Jesus, then the Holy Spirit.

Not as all one and equal.
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« Reply #145 on: January 17, 2013, 06:40:33 AM »

So that's your strong evidence that Jesus is God?  That others called him that in a few verses and of the Biblical verses we have today none document Jesus denying it in response?  That in combination with the fact that many people called him a Man and Prophet, and more importantly Jesus referred to himself as a Man as well.  You're grasping at straws.

Jesus was a man, and also a prophet, and he is also the Christ(Messiah), and he is God. When people called him by any of these names and titles to his face, he never denied it because he is all of these.

But when some said that he was possessed by a demon, Jesus plainly said “I am not possessed by a demon” - John 8:49.

What about Peter?  He is "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 - does that make Peter God?  The word translated to "woshipped" here and in referencing to people "worhsipping" Jesus is Proskuneo, which could also mean bowing to.  Similarly Abigal also fell on her face before David and bowed in 1 Samuel 25:23.  Does that make Abigail God?

The true word for woship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but none towards Jesus.

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
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« Reply #146 on: January 17, 2013, 06:45:41 AM »

Yup, like I said earlier, grasping at straws Smiley  And yes I also noticed loco likes to keep repasting the same verses even after his interpretation of them has been refuted already.

If you go back and collect all of the verses that I have posted, you will see that they are many and not all the same.  If I have re-posted some, it is not for you.  It is for visitors to these threads who may come in late into the discussion.  

They need to see for themselves that there is indeed Biblical basis for the deity of Jesus Christ and for Salvation through faith in him and his sacrifice for our sins, even when Muslims keep repeating otherwise.

And how exactly have you "refuted" my "interpretation", by giving me your own interpretation?   LOL
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« Reply #147 on: January 17, 2013, 10:51:43 AM »

Sure it does, it makes God unable to know something if he is god which he is not. Jesus differentiated himself from God all the time. That's why your argument has so little validity and credibility.

When you go and say "I have the holy spirit dwelling in me I am convinced" it really is meaningless.

Ironically the 'holy spirit' was not even talked about until 400 years after Jesus in part to this 'trinity'. The council of nicea 300 years after Jesus only talked about who is/was Jesus and who is God.

So you see.. no matter how you spin it, Jesus is not God and your arguments fall apart.

"It's black."      "Nope, it's white."  
"It's up."          "Nope, it's down."
"It's on."          "Nope, it's off."
"It's left."         "Nope, it's right."
"It's over."        "Nope, it's under."
"It's hot."         "Nope, it's cold."
"It's inside."      "Nope, it's outside."
"It's correct."    "Nope, it's incorrect."
"It's tall."          "Nope, it's short."
"It's heavy."      "Nope, it's light."
"It's hard."        "Nope, it's soft."
"It's good."       "Nope, it's bad."

......ad infinitum, ad nauseum

I literally have nothing else to share or write cause frankly I'm out of words and I'm drained....completely.

I completely and totally understand Butterbean now.

MOS out
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bigbobs
Getbig V
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Posts: 9620


Islam, Nasser and Corvettes.


« Reply #148 on: January 17, 2013, 11:12:44 AM »

Jesus was a man, and also a prophet, and he is also the Christ(Messiah), and he is God. When people called him by any of these names and titles to his face, he never denied it because he is all of these.

Your first three titles are correct and in agreement with the Qur'an as well, it's the "and he is God" is where we differ.  It is possible to me a man, prophet and Messiah because none of these three are exclusive of each other.  However by definition one can not be both God and man, or both God and prophet (because the latter is the messenger of the former, thereby necessitating two separate entities).  Combine this with the fact that Jesus was clearly below "the father" (prayed to him, was not all-knowing, etc.) and that Jesus never even claimed to be God in the Bible (while he did claim to be man, prophet, and Messiah), you no longer have a valid case of the Trinity to people such as myself and non-religious readers of getbig who do not have blind faith or have not been indoctrinated at an early age of this Trinity belief.
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loco
Getbig V
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Posts: 8986

Getbig!


« Reply #149 on: January 17, 2013, 11:49:23 AM »


Jesus was a man, and also a prophet, and he is also the Christ(Messiah), and he is God. When people called him by any of these names and titles to his face, he never denied it because he is all of these.

Your first three titles are correct and in agreement with the Qur'an as well, it's the "and he is God" is where we differ.  It is possible to me a man, prophet and Messiah because none of these three are exclusive of each other.  However by definition one can not be both God and man, or both God and prophet (because the latter is the messenger of the former, thereby necessitating two separate entities).  Combine this with the fact that Jesus was clearly below "the father" (prayed to him, was not all-knowing, etc.) and that Jesus never even claimed to be God in the Bible (while he did claim to be man, prophet, and Messiah), you no longer have a valid case of the Trinity to people such as myself and non-religious readers of getbig who do not have blind faith or have not been indoctrinated at an early age of this Trinity belief.

So you agree that Jesus is the Messiah.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity?

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
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