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Author Topic: Read the book of Matthew  (Read 7717 times)
loco
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« Reply #175 on: January 28, 2013, 04:33:39 PM »

You asked me to address Daniel 7:14, I responded asking what you'd like me to address, and in the few replies you've posted you still haven't told me.  Huh

You agree that Jesus is the Messiah, but you believe that Jesus is not God.  Therefore you must believe that the Jewish Messiah is not God.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity by all people in Daniel 7:14?

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
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« Reply #176 on: January 28, 2013, 04:34:30 PM »

dont just read it libs

live it
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« Reply #177 on: January 28, 2013, 04:55:44 PM »

You agree that Jesus is the Messiah, but you believe that Jesus is not God.  Therefore you must believe that the Jewish Messiah is not God.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity by all people in Daniel 7:14?

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Where in Daniel 7:14 is the title "Messiah?"    When I look up Daniel 7:14 these are the translations I get:  http://bible.cc/daniel/7-14.htm.  Most of the translations don't even use the word "worship." 
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« Reply #178 on: January 28, 2013, 06:02:33 PM »

Where in Daniel 7:14 is the title "Messiah?"    When I look up Daniel 7:14 these are the translations I get:  http://bible.cc/daniel/7-14.htm.  Most of the translations don't even use the word "worship." 

But what does it say in Hebrew?
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« Reply #179 on: January 28, 2013, 06:10:00 PM »

But what does it say in Hebrew?

No idea as I don't know Hebrew.  What I do know is that none of the translations of Daniel 7:14 that I'm reading hint that Messiah = God, we've already established that it's simply defined as an annointed one, and has been used for kings and priests.
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« Reply #180 on: February 19, 2013, 06:51:21 AM »

last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal.

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times.

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.

You missed this:

Matthew 9:2-7
2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
7 Then the man got up and went home.


What's your observation, bigbobs?
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« Reply #181 on: February 19, 2013, 11:26:04 AM »

You missed this:

Matthew 9:2-7
2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
7 Then the man got up and went home.


What's your observation, bigbobs?

Sounds like some verses in the Bible suggest God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins.  Not seeing how that's relevant to the question of Jesus being God or not.
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« Reply #182 on: February 19, 2013, 03:30:37 PM »

Sounds like some verses in the Bible suggest God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins.  Not seeing how that's relevant to the question of Jesus being God or not.

Did God give Jesus the authority to forgive sins, bigbobs?

Mark 2:7
“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?



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« Reply #183 on: February 19, 2013, 03:39:42 PM »

Did God give Jesus the authority to forgive sins, bigbobs?

Mark 2:7
“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?



I don't believe God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins, unless there is reason within Islamic scripture to believe so. 
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« Reply #184 on: February 20, 2013, 04:44:19 AM »

I don't believe God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins, unless there is reason within Islamic scripture to believe so.  

Is there?
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« Reply #185 on: February 20, 2013, 09:47:06 AM »

Is there?

Not that I'm aware of
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« Reply #186 on: February 20, 2013, 11:05:10 AM »

Not that I'm aware of

This is what the Bible says:

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,
7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?
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« Reply #187 on: February 20, 2013, 11:48:39 AM »

This is what the Bible says:

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,
7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?

So what "some" people in the audience were "thinking to themselves" overrides what Jesus explicitly states about himself + the many other narrations of Jesus being human?   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #188 on: February 20, 2013, 11:53:45 AM »

So what "some" people in the audience were "thinking to themselves" overrides what Jesus explicitly states about himself + the many other narrations of Jesus being human?   Roll Eyes

So mere humans can forgive sins?
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« Reply #189 on: February 20, 2013, 01:10:32 PM »

So mere humans can forgive sins?

I didn't read the conversation above. But wait? You think no one can forgive someone if they were wronged? WOW!
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« Reply #190 on: February 20, 2013, 01:20:12 PM »

So mere humans can forgive sins?

Of course we can.  As an example, I recently forgave one of my friends for not being able to keep a secret I told him.
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« Reply #191 on: February 20, 2013, 01:24:25 PM »

I didn't read the conversation above. But wait? You think no one can forgive someone if they were wronged? WOW!

Of course we can.  As an example, I recently forgave one of my friends for not being able to keep a secret I told him.

No, and you both know that is not what we are talking about here.     Roll Eyes

Jesus forgave all of the paralyzed man's sins.  The paralyzed man had not "wronged" Jesus.  You know that is why the teachers of the law said Jesus was blaspheming. 
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« Reply #192 on: February 20, 2013, 01:28:39 PM »

No, and you both know that is not what we are talking about here.     Roll Eyes

Jesus forgave all of the paralyzed man's sins.  The paralyzed man had not "wronged" Jesus.  You know that is why the teachers of the law said Jesus was blaspheming. 

Yup, like I said earlier:

"So what "some" people in the audience were "thinking to themselves" overrides what Jesus explicitly states about himself + the many other narrations of Jesus being human?   
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« Reply #193 on: February 20, 2013, 01:39:34 PM »

Yup, like I said earlier:

"So what "some" people in the audience were "thinking to themselves" overrides what Jesus explicitly states about himself + the many other narrations of Jesus being human?   

Jesus said that he had the power to forgive sins on earth, that he had the power to forgive all of the paralyzed man's sins, and he did just that.  Are you saying Jesus is a liar?  I really don't know what you are saying here.
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« Reply #194 on: February 20, 2013, 02:37:03 PM »

Muhammad (pbuh) also uttered "your sins are forgiven" on numerous accounts.

Prophets can assure people of forgiveness as they receive divine revelation and are in contact with God as their representatives on earth.

That does not make them God.

Stop being childish, it's making you look pathetic "are you saying Jesus is a liar". You are being pathetic and childish seriously. Absolute desperation on your part. I've been sarcastic in response to your things but you're not even arguing with facts anymore, just desperation.

#1 The books we have in the bible are not authored by Jesus nor authored by anyone near Jesus and we know they've been tampered with.

Want one small mind bursting fact? The prostitute incident, a story created was it 400 years after or was it 700 years after? So it was not Jesus' words.

#2 Jesus also said he does these things granted through the power of God and it's stated as such.

Was Moses God? Because he could turn a staff into a snake? Or make his hand shine under his garment?
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