BCAA vs Glutamine

[Blake]

 

LOL

[lapd21]

I GET THE FEELING ILL JUST KEEP PROVING MY POINT, AND THEN YOU WILL JUST TRY AND GET YOUR POINT ACROSS.....  IM GOING TO TRY AND POST A PIC SOON ON THIS THING AND THEN WE CAN SEE WHOS RIGHT 

[250Ben250]

The only significant study that showed glutamine directly influenced muscle growth was done with people in a severly catabolic (ie: suffering from different muscle wasting diseases) states. The glutamine source there was given through IV. Thus, unless you've got the Hi V there's better things to spend your money on.

[Blake]

I GET THE FEELING ILL JUST KEEP PROVING MY POINT, AND THEN YOU WILL JUST TRY AND GET YOUR POINT ACROSS.....  IM GOING TO TRY AND POST A PIC SOON ON THIS THING AND THEN WE CAN SEE WHOS RIGHT 

Actually, I said yesterday that I can agree to disagree.  If you feel that glutamine is worthwhile, that's fine.  I've used it and don't care for it, even at high doses.  I simply don't care to go round and round in circles over it.  Nothing personal.    

[Blake]

The only significant study that showed glutamine directly influenced muscle growth was done with people in a severly catabolic (ie: suffering from different muscle wasting diseases) states. The glutamine source there was given through IV. Thus, unless you've got the Hi V there's better things to spend your money on.

You're exactly right.

[lapd21]

are i kidding me theres only been on significant study? says who you?? theres been tons and tons of studies regarding glutamine not just the one your talking about regarding sick people...  please read once again and learn somthing important...






We have gathered some comprehensive glutamine information from a variety of sources, as it is an important amino acid essential to many body processes.

L-Glutamine studies reveal that it is the most abundant amino acid in your muscles, and that it plays a major role in synthesizing muslce protein and cell-volumizing. It is also converted into glucose when the body needs more energy.

Perhaps the most important piece of glutamine information for bodybuilders is that it offers anti-catabolic effects, which means it helps prevent muscle breakdown.

With intense cardiovascular workouts, the body often burns muscle for energy and also depletes stored glutamine levels, which take a while to build back up.

L-Glutamine studies show that a glutamine supplement can help maintain these important glutamine levels, as well as help prevent muscle cells from being broken down.

[loco]

Not picking sides and not trying to argue, but it is my understanding that intravenous glutamine was given to patients going through surgery to prevent muscle loss do to the amount of stress placed on the immune system by the surgery itself.  Now, oral glutamine would not work the same way as intravenous glutamine, but if taken in powder form, in high doses, 10g - 20g, some of it may make it to the bloodstream before it is destroyed in your digestive track.  I personally add 10g to 20g of glutamine to my post-workout Whey Isolate shake, more as an anti-catabolic supplement. 

As for scientific sources, here are some articles by AST.  Yes, they do sell glutamine, but they do list their sources unlike most supplement companies out there.

So many benefits from Glutamine
www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=446
Source: Journal of Cell Physiology, 2005.

Glutamine supplementation prevents destruction of immune cells
www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=370
Source: Med Sci Sports Exerc, 36:210-217, 2004

Consistent, daily glutamine supplementation is the key.
www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=146
The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 16(1);157–160, 2002.

Supplementing with glutamine enhances muscle glycogen synthesis.
www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=103
J.Appl.Physiol.86;6:1770-1777, 1999.

Glutamine supplementation enhances whey's effect on protein synthesis rates in muscle.
www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=14
Nutrition 2001 Jan;17(1):35-40

[lapd21]

Not picking sides and not trying to argue, but it is my understanding that intravenous glutamine was given to patients going through surgery to prevent muscle loss do to the amount of stress place on the immune system by the surgery itself.  Now, oral glutamine would not work the same way as intravenous glutamine, but if taken in powder form, in high doses, 10g - 20g, some of it may make it to the bloodstream before it is destroyed in your digestive track.  I personally add 10g to 20g of glutamine to my post-workout Whey Isolate shake, more as an anti-catabolic supplement. 

As for scientific sources, here is some articles by AST.  Yes, they do sell glutamine, but they do list their sources unlike most supplement companies out there.

So many benefits from Glutamine
www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=446
Source: Journal of Cell Physiology, 2005.

Glutamine supplementation prevents destruction of immune cells
www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=370
Source: Med Sci Sports Exerc, 36:210-217, 2004

Consistent, daily glutamine supplementation is the key.
www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=146
The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 16(1);157–160, 2002.

Supplementing with glutamine enhances muscle glycogen synthesis.
www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=103
J.Appl.Physiol.86;6:1770-1777, 1999.

Glutamine supplementation enhances whey's effect on protein synthesis rates in muscle.
www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=14
Nutrition 2001 Jan;17(1):35-40




ding ding ding we have a winner..... common sense .. glutamine is found within your body in your muscle cells.....  muscle get broken down when training so you need to supplement more of it in order to build and prevent your muscle from being in a catabolic state......  of course its not 100% necessary to take it in order to get any results, but you will indeed get better results if you do take it......

[250Ben250]

My personal experience with it is not great either, I've tried everything from 5gms daily up to 35 and I don't notice anything in terms of measurable strength/weight gain. I do think its beneficial for the immune system but I've had just as much success preventing colds, etc. by keeping my Vit. C intake at 3gms a day minimum.

Also, if you guys are going to post studies either way I'd suggest getting them from a legitimate source. Posting BB.com or AST-related studies mean fvck all if you're trying to prove a point 

The only "study" here worth a damn mentioning is:

-www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=103 -

And even here they used a small group of people comparing a carb-only drink to a glutamine only solution. "8 grams of glutamine were just as effective as 61 gms of carbs in replenishing muscle glycogen". Great. Check out your protein shake next time, you get an average of 4gms of glutamine per scoop of whey as it is. Its probably safe to say most of us here take at least 2 scoops of whey after a workout. Problem solved. 

[Blake]

And I can post studies showing the opposite:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11822473&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10410846&query_hl=3
(not so much a specific study as summary of current research regarding oral supplementation of individual amino acids)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14636104&query_hl=15

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11834123&query_hl=15

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10678686&query_hl=15


And around and around we go!   

[loco]

My personal experience with it is not great either, I've tried everything from 5gms daily up to 35 and I don't notice anything in terms of measurable strength/weight gain. I do think its beneficial for the immune system but I've had just as much success preventing colds, etc. by keeping my Vit. C intake at 3gms a day minimum.

Also, if you guys are going to post studies either way I'd suggest getting them from a legitimate source. Posting BB.com or AST-related studies mean fvck all if you're trying to prove a point 

The only "study" here worth a damn mentioning is:

-www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=103 -

And even here they used a small group of people comparing a carb-only drink to a glutamine only solution. "8 grams of glutamine were just as effective as 61 gms of carbs in replenishing muscle glycogen". Great. Check out your protein shake next time, you get an average of 4gms of glutamine per scoop of whey as it is. Its probably safe to say most of us here take at least 2 scoops of whey after a workout. Problem solved. 

You are not going to notice anything in terms of measurable strength/weight gain from glutamine.  It is an anti-catabolic supplement.  If you are using performance enhancing drugs, then you don't need glutamine since the drugs are much more anti-catabolic.  If you are bulking up, then you probably don't need glutamine.  I recommend it for non-drug users who are not bulking up, or even yet, are leaning out.  You tried it and it didn't work for you and you have your mind set on not using it again.  Cool, but it may well work for somebody else.

I don't take what AST, or any other supplement company says as the gospel.  I said that AST does at least provide the "legitimate source" on which they base their articles, something that most companies and bodybuilding books out there don't do.   

[loco]

And I can post studies showing the opposite:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11822473&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10410846&query_hl=3
(not so much a specific study as summary of current research regarding oral supplementation of individual amino acids)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14636104&query_hl=15

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11834123&query_hl=15

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10678686&query_hl=15


And around and around we go!   

Good reads, but which one of the above shows that glutamine does not help prevent/reduce muscle catabolism?

[250Ben250]

I see your point, I just don't agree with the way those kind of wesites extrapolate the data from original studies and post it up as a "technical" write-up. You have to remember those are still marketing people that are converting those studies to consumer-friendly text.

It may work for some people who are in a severly restricted state. I haved used it both during bulking and during my one pre-contest diet, but I am natural so I can't really compare it to anything better in terms of sparing muscle. I can say that high dose BCAA's before a workout and before bed seem to have a much more significant effect in terms of recovery. iow, I do notice differences in (lesser) soreness with BCAA's whereas I did not notice the same with Glutamine.

[Blake]

Good reads, but which one of the above shows that glutamine does not help prevent/reduce muscle catabolism?

They don't.  And that's not the point I'm refuting.  I'm saying oral glutamine supplementation is not going to have a positive impact on muscle hypertrophy (gains) or positively affect performance during weight training moreso than not taking it.

Now, one may argue, "well, if it helps w/ catabolism, it's going to help gains over time".  I wouldn't agree.  I think keeping training in check (volume, frequency, duration, etc) while consuming a good diet high in protein throughout the day will do far more for preventing catabolism than oral glutamine.

[250Ben250]

Exactly, if you're looking at the best means of adding the most amount of net muscle over a long period of time, supplementing glutamine really shouldn't play much of a roll at all. 

[Brutal_1]

Blake, and everyone else who stubbornely argues their point over and over again...

HERE'S A QUOTE FOR THE DAY:

"A man convinced against his will,
is of the same opinion still"

...and please don't ask me to find studies to prove this 

[lapd21]

Blake, and everyone else who stubbornely argues their point over and over again...

HERE'S A QUOTE FOR THE DAY:

"A man convinced against his will,
is of the same opinion still"

...and please don't ask me to find studies to prove this 

lol dam good point

[Blake]

Blake, and everyone else who stubbornely argues their point over and over again...

 

Isn't the point of a message board to have discussions?

Why is it that when I participate in a discussion (like this one) that I suddenly am deemed stubborn?  Because (in this particular discussion) I'm using science and not bodybuilder anecdotes like 'lapd21'?  And not saying things like "dude, you don't know what you're talking about, Milos told me otherwise, etc"

As I said before, lapd21 could have left it alone when I said "I can agree to disagree".  But he continued posting responses and attempted to make it personal by saying he'd post a pic and that somehow would make me wrong and him right.

[loco]

I see your point, I just don't agree with the way those kind of wesites extrapolate the data from original studies and post it up as a "technical" write-up. You have to remember those are still marketing people that are converting those studies to consumer-friendly text.

I am aware of this, and I am cautious.  I'll start another thread about websites offering health-related resources.

I was simply showing above that there are indeed studies out there for glutamine supplementation, in case someone here denied it. 

[lapd21]

Isn't the point of a message board to have discussions?

Why is it that when I participate in a discussion (like this one) that I suddenly am deemed stubborn?  Because (in this particular discussion) I'm using science and not bodybuilder anecdotes like 'lapd21'?  And not saying things like "dude, you don't know what you're talking about, Milos told me otherwise, etc"

As I said before, lapd21 could have left it alone when I said "I can agree to disagree".  But he continued posting responses and attempted to make it personal by saying he'd post a pic and that somehow would make me wrong and him right.

i made it personal.. sorry if i jolted a tear from ya, i was just trying to prove a point that im right and your wrong, just like it is the other way around for you.....    ill let you win on this one if you want, im sure you know more then me anwayz right??  id bet my unborn childrens souls you dont, but its cool im done with this topic

[250Ben250]

I am aware of this, and I am cautious.  I'll start another thread about websites offering health-related resources.

I was simply showing above that there are indeed studies out there for glutamine supplementation, in case someone here denied it. 

Good to hear, I know those are out there as well. I just worry about the day people start posting "articles" about Fizogen's Strap as scientific proof.   
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/fiz/strap.html

[Blake]

i made it personal.. sorry if i jolted a tear from ya,

Don't worry, no tears shed here.   

i was just trying to prove a point that im right and your wrong,

Right.  And I'll I'm saying is I don't know why it couldn't have been a civil, intelligent discussion about the topic rather than making it personal and turning it into a pissing match.

ill let you win on this one if you want, im sure you know more then me anwayz right??  id bet my unborn childrens souls you dont, but its cool im done with this topic

You'll "let" me win?  Why, because you don't have valid information refuting the exact scientific stuides I posted or any other info that would make me think glutamine is actually useful for muscular hypertrophy or greater lifting performance? Also, when did this become a competition? When you're trying to convince people that a certain supplement works, you need to provide evidence.  I don't consider pro bodybuilder anecdotes or "Joe down the street told me so" or "yeah man, glutamine helped me add 20 pounds!" or random sentences posted from bodybuilding.com as evidence.

And, I see you're still going personal with the "I know more than you, etc." instead of sticking to the topic at hand.  Where did I ever claim that I know more than you?  Either way, it's all good.   

[lapd21]

im not getting personal on here if it sounds like it is im sorry...  i actually like you at least your not a dickhead like some people are on here....  im basically just trying to drop this now lol

[Blake]

im not getting personal on here if it sounds like it is im sorry...  i actually like you at least your not a dickhead like some people are on here....  im basically just trying to drop this now lol

Bro, that's cool.  I've got absolutely nothing against you, and didn't mean to seem antagonistic.

Take it easy...

[lapd21]

Bro, that's cool.  I've got absolutely nothing against you, and didn't mean to seem antagonistic.

Take it easy...

but im still right and your wrong .. lol .... im playin