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Author Topic: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit  (Read 12429 times)
TrueBB93
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« Reply #200 on: January 02, 2013, 05:50:22 PM »

Well, apparently there is, or at least lots of people believe that there is.

you in your heart know there isnt. if you really do go find one! dont just say "lots of people believe there is".

Step 1. Find contradiction
Step 2. give us the verse before and after it.
Step 3. give us the chapter name which you found this contradiction

http://quran.com

^^^^ if you find a verse check this website to make sure it really is in the Quran and not somthing a non-muslim has added to forward their arugement(yes there have been people stupid enough and shameless enough to make things up!)


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« Reply #201 on: January 02, 2013, 07:48:09 PM »

Are you blind in what I copy pasted from the two encyclopedias?

The trinity doctrine in its full form was not even finalized until around 400 years after. The first time it was even debated and finalized was ultimately in the council of nicea and at that time the holy spirit was not a discussion point much it was about who is jesus and who is God.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to note that the encyclopedia reference is just flat out wrong about the God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit not being preached...it's all their in scripture and completely affirmed by God, the disciples, the apostles and millions of believers worldwide.  So, it's all good.
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TrueBB93
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« Reply #202 on: January 02, 2013, 10:29:17 PM »

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to note that the encyclopedia reference is just flat out wrong about the God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit not being preached...it's all their in scripture and completely affirmed by God, the disciples, the apostles and millions of believers worldwide.  So, it's all good.

give me a source(besides the modern bible) that says Jesus died for you sins
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« Reply #203 on: January 02, 2013, 10:57:39 PM »

give me a source(besides the modern bible) that says Jesus died for you sins

*SNICKER*

That book, the New Testament, the one  you so despise and ignore is all that those who follow the Christ need.  It is the source of their spiritual nourishment, if you will. You already know this and yet in your pathetic attempts to belittle their faith you make idiotic statements such as the one quoted above. 

You really are stupid.  How goes that myth about your foundling father, Mohammed and  his flying horse?  I think it should be called something other than

"My little pony".  How about, ""My little phony"?  Yes, that would aptly describe your pathetic leader and his wife beating followers.

Gutless pedophiles, the lot of you.  Mistreaters of women and sodomizers of boys, this is the heritage of Islam.  That and murder.    No better than the Popes of Catholicism.
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« Reply #204 on: January 03, 2013, 06:14:59 AM »

sure but before I do I must add somthing important: In the other thread I asked you guys whiter you thought the Bible is "word for word" the word of God, you guys answered No, but inspired by God.

the reason I point this out is very important. I(and all other muslims) believe in ALL the books, hence why the Quran refers to you guys(christians) as "people of the book"(people who have been revealed the truth), except we believe in the original version(which contained 100% truth), not the modern day bible( a blend of truth and falsehoods)

the Bible that people read today seeing as there many many diffrent versions, with certain verses being taken out, and others put in(go to a christian scholar and ask him, if you dont believe me). So the Bible is no longer 100% the word of God it once was. hence a verse will hints at the idea of Jesus(pbuh) dying for you sins or being the son of God is somthing added later.

So the statement I said "the orignal followers of jesus didnt say jesus died for there sins" is somthing which can be proved through history  (how the follows of jesus prayed like jews at syangoues 300 years AFTER jesus left this world and considerd jesuses departure from earth nothing like you guys do in the sense of him being sacrificed). and the opposite(your side of the arugment of him dying for you sins) cannot be proven any other way except using the modern day bible, the same bible why was edited and isnt 100% word of God which even chrisitans admit(hence why they say inspired by God rather then "word for word the word" of God). So  verses which say things like " died for us" is somthing put into the bible many many years later and nothing somthing original.

hope I answered you question Loco, and sorry if I offended you in anyway.

Thank you for addressing this, finally.  Nice conspiracy theory you got going there.  So some guy said this on a YouTube video and you believe it?

There are an abundance of Bible scholars, past and present, who will disagree with you.  I have studied the Bible, Bible History, and Archeology myself.  My father was a Bible scholar.  I have known Bible scholars.  And we all know what you say is not true and you have not an ounce of evidence to back it up.

With your conspiracy theory, you can conveniently add to or remove from the Bible anything that you want to fit your beliefs.  You could say that the original Bible never mentioned Jesus, that Jesus was added later.  You could even say that the original Bible never mentioned God, that God was added later.

New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing.  Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy...and they are very consistent.

There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.  If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.

Just one example:

Aristotle's ancient writings date 384-322 B.C..  The earliest copy we have is from 1,100 A.D..  The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,400 years.  We have only 49 copies.

Ceasar's ancient writings date 100-44 B.C..  The earliest copy we have is from 900 A.D..  The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,000 years.  We have only 10 copies.

The New Testament on the other hand dates 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.).  The earliest copies we have are from 2nd Cent. A.D. (130 A.D.).  The approximate time span between original & copy is less than 100 years.  We have 5,686 copies.


I'll tell you what, prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.  
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« Reply #205 on: January 03, 2013, 10:48:01 AM »

Thank you for addressing this, finally.  Nice conspiracy theory you got going there.  So some guy said this on a YouTube video and you believe it?
There are an abundance of Bible scholars, past and present, who will disagree with you.  I have studied the Bible, Bible History, and Archeology myself.  My father was a Bible scholar.  I have known Bible scholars.  And we all know what you say is not true and you have not an ounce of evidence to back it up.

With your conspiracy theory, you can conveniently add to or remove from the Bible anything that you want to fit your beliefs.  You could say that the original Bible never mentioned Jesus, that Jesus was added later.  You could even say that the original Bible never mentioned God, that God was added later.
New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing.  Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy...and they are very consistent.

There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.  If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.

Just one example:

Aristotle's ancient writings date 384-322 B.C..  The earliest copy we have is from 1,100 A.D..  The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,400 years.  We have only 49 copies.

Ceasar's ancient writings date 100-44 B.C..  The earliest copy we have is from 900 A.D..  The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,000 years.  We have only 10 copies.

The New Testament on the other hand dates 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.).  The earliest copies we have are from 2nd Cent. A.D. (130 A.D.).  The approximate time span between original & copy is less than 100 years.  We have 5,686 copies.


I'll tell you what, prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.  

alright  Roll Eyes you want to open this can of worms huh?

so since you claim to have studied the Bibile, you father has too and you claim to know Bibile Scholars, then I am assuming you know who Bart D. Ehrman is? he is a New testament scholar. lets take a look at a few of the things he said in his books shall we?

"In his book Forged which was released in 2011, he asserts that 11 or more books of the Christian New Testament were essentially politically expeditious forgeries, intended to advance various theological positions and were in fact not written by the authors traditionally ascribed to them"

He also said  in misqouting jesus we dont even have a COPY of a COPY of a COPY of a COPY of a COPY or anything original from the bible!!!!!!!!! thats 5!!!!!

AND THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS!!!!  ALMOST ALL OF MY INFORMATION ABOUT THE BIBLES FAULTS HAVE BEEN FROM CHRISITANS!! PEOPLE WHO ARE SCHOLARS! THIS ISNT A YOUTUBE-ILLUMANTI TYPE GIMMICK VIDEO! THESE ARE EDUCATED BIBLE SCHOLARS COMMING OUT AND SAYING SOMTHING THINGS ABOUT THEIR OWN FAITH IS JUST PLAIN WORNG!

If you consider youself to have strong faith then watch this(if you dont, it means you belief is weak, since you rather not hear the truth and stay in your own bubble)

here is ANOTHER bible scholar Yusuf estes!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kX72KvnMmI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kX72KvnMmI</a>
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« Reply #206 on: January 03, 2013, 10:53:21 AM »

alright  Roll Eyes you want to open this can of worms huh?

so since you claim to have studied the Bibile, you father has too and you claim to know Bibile Scholars, then I am assuming you know who Bart D. Ehrman is? he is a New testament scholar. lets take a look at a few of the things he said in his books shall we?

"In his book Forged which was released in 2011, he asserts that 11 or more books of the Christian New Testament were essentially politically expeditious forgeries, intended to advance various theological positions and were in fact not written by the authors traditionally ascribed to them"

He also said  in misqouting jesus we dont even have a COPY of a COPY of a COPY of a COPY of a COPY or anything original from the bible!!!!!!!!! thats 5!!!!!

AND THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS!!!!  ALMOST ALL OF MY INFORMATION ABOUT THE BIBLES FAULTS HAVE BEEN FROM CHRISITANS!! PEOPLE WHO ARE SCHOLARS! THIS ISNT A YOUTUBE-ILLUMANTI TYPE GIMMICK VIDEO! THESE ARE EDUCATED BIBLE SCHOLARS COMMING OUT AND SAYING SOMTHING THINGS ABOUT THEIR OWN FAITH IS JUST PLAIN WORNG!

If you consider youself to have strong faith then watch this(if you dont, it means you belief is weak, since you rather not hear the truth and stay in your own bubble)

here is ANOTHER bible scholar Yusuf estes!


TrueBB93,

It's very simple.  Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins. 
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TrueBB93
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« Reply #207 on: January 03, 2013, 10:58:39 AM »

TrueBB93,

It's very simple.  Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.  

let me guess you didnt watch the vid i posted becuase of your weak faith you were afriad rigth?  Kiss how do you sleep at night know the truth is there but you skip over it?

I asked you FIRST to prove jesus died for your sins without using the bible, you werent man enough to do that, now you come and ask me the same question? You first buddy, then I will go  Kiss Kiss Kiss
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« Reply #208 on: January 03, 2013, 11:14:43 AM »

let me guess you didnt watch the vid i posted becuase of your weak faith you were afriad rigth?  Kiss how do you sleep at night know the truth is there but you skip over it?

I asked you FIRST to prove jesus died for your sins without using the bible, you werent man enough to do that, now you come and ask me the same question? You first buddy, then I will go  Kiss Kiss Kiss

Why are you trying to change the subject now?  Now you want me to prove what?  I cannot, and no one can, prove that Jesus died for our sins.  All I did was show you, using the Bible, that you are mistaken when you said that

the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

To which you replied that Jesus dying for our sins was not in the original Bible, but that it was added later.

TrueBB93,

It's very simple.  Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.

You won't because you can't.
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« Reply #209 on: January 03, 2013, 11:39:13 AM »

give me a source(besides the modern bible) that says Jesus died for you sins

I need a source other than God?
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« Reply #210 on: January 03, 2013, 11:47:39 AM »

Doctor William Lane Craig:

"If you approach this question simply on the basis of the Hebrew Bibile or what we would call the old testement one wouldnt
 come to beleive God is a trinity
"  Kiss


"the doctrine of the trinity isnt explicly taught in any passage of the Bible, in otherwords the doctrine that there is One God manifest in three persons, that these three persons are each individually God, but theres only one God. not three Gods but one God but not one person three persons. This is not taught in any passage of the Bible except for 1 John, Chapter 5 verses 7 and 8."

more from our friend and CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR Bart Ehrman  Wink

"in the year 1516 he(erasmus) put together the frist printed edition of the greek new testement he didnt include the verse(the ons mentioned above, the ONLY verses which teach the supposely trinity which later become known as a forgery Kiss) becuase it wasnt in the manuscripts. and the latin theologists went balalistic.  according to the story erasmus said look its not in any of the greek manuscripts, and they(the lantin theologists) said but yes its part of the churchs doctrine! you have gotten rid of the Trinity! and Erasmus said look if you can produce a Greek manuscipt that has it in it(the verse in question), I will include it in my next edition. SO THEY PRODUCED A GREEK MANUSCIPT!(they made one LOL!)


Doctor James White believes the Trinity was revealed AFTER the old Testament. Thus he believes the Trinity was not their either.


These are words from your OWN CHRISTAN SCHOLARS!! not from a muslim.
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« Reply #211 on: January 03, 2013, 11:49:20 AM »

I need a source other than God?

In the Quran God says who ever gives him partners and is a poltheist will burn in Hell forever. He also says jesus was a prophet and NOT a son.

Do I need a source other then God?
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« Reply #212 on: January 03, 2013, 11:58:05 AM »

Doctor William Lane Craig:

"If you approach this question simply on the basis of the Hebrew Bibile or what we would call the old testement one wouldnt
 come to beleive God is a trinity
"  Kiss


"the doctrine of the trinity isnt explicly taught in any passage of the Bible, in otherwords the doctrine that there is One God manifest in three persons, that these three persons are each individually God, but theres only one God. not three Gods but one God but not one person three persons. This is not taught in any passage of the Bible except for 1 John, Chapter 5 verses 7 and 8."

more from our friend and CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR Bart Ehrman  Wink

"in the year 1516 he(erasmus) put together the frist printed edition of the greek new testement he didnt include the verse(the ons mentioned above, the ONLY verses which teach the supposely trinity which later become known as a forgery Kiss) becuase it wasnt in the manuscripts. and the latin theologists went balalistic.  according to the story erasmus said look its not in any of the greek manuscripts, and they(the lantin theologists) said but yes its part of the churchs doctrine! you have gotten rid of the Trinity! and Erasmus said look if you can produce a Greek manuscipt that has it in it(the verse in question), I will include it in my next edition. SO THEY PRODUCED A GREEK MANUSCIPT!(they made one LOL!)


Doctor James White believes the Trinity was revealed AFTER the old Testament. Thus he believes the Trinity was not their either.


These are words from your OWN CHRISTAN SCHOLARS!! not from a muslim.

So what?  I could cut and paste quotes from thousands of Bible scholars who do believe the entire Bible supports the Trinity.  And I have already posted an abundance of Bible passages showing why we believe this.

TrueBB93,

Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.
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« Reply #213 on: January 03, 2013, 12:12:22 PM »

So what?  I could cut and paste quotes from thousands of Bible scholars who do believe the entire Bible supports the Trinity.  And I have already posted an abundance of Bible passages showing why we believe this.

TrueBB93,

Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.

you really are loco arent you? can your read english? THERE ARE NO ORIGINAL COPIES OF ANYTHING LEFT! its ALL alterd.

I just proved to you the idea of the trinity is nothing but nonsense! the only verse which even comes close was a FORGERY!!! just like many other things in chrisitany that innocent and good people fall pray into.
 

lets do this:

I will keep giving charity, fasting and praying 5 times a day the same way Jesus did. I will continue to Pray to GOD alone and ask GOD for forgivness and ask GOD for help. and continue to priase God the almighty, not his creation.

you can continue with your beleifs and tell people 3=1 and 1=3? sound good? tell people jesus loves you, yet you dont pray like Jeusus did. jesus when to synagouges to worship God, you go to chruch to worship jesus.

 the only reason you christian is becuase you were brought up that way, you never gave religion of life in genral a second thought. Open you eye buddy, open you eyes. theres a reason why people who are searching for religion alwas come to islam, no ones holdin a sword to their neck.

Im done with this debate
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« Reply #214 on: January 03, 2013, 12:35:36 PM »

TrueBB93,

All I did was show you, using the Bible, that you are mistaken when you said that

the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

To which you replied that Jesus dying for our sins was not in the original Bible, but that it was added later.

So I asked you to prove your conspiracy theory by producing, NOT an ORIGINAL, but an EARLIER copy that doesn't mention Jesus dying for our sins.

To which your reply

THERE ARE NO ORIGINAL COPIES OF ANYTHING LEFT! its ALL alterd.

Nice conspiracy theory you got there.

TrueBB93,

I respect your faith and I am not here to try to convert you, though I do wish you'd see the light and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior because I believe that is the truth.

I am here to set the record straight about what the Bible says.

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
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« Reply #215 on: January 03, 2013, 01:12:25 PM »

Doctor William Lane Craig:

"If you approach this question simply on the basis of the Hebrew Bibile or what we would call the old testement one wouldnt
 come to beleive God is a trinity
"  Kiss


"the doctrine of the trinity isnt explicly taught in any passage of the Bible, in otherwords the doctrine that there is One God manifest in three persons, that these three persons are each individually God, but theres only one God. not three Gods but one God but not one person three persons. This is not taught in any passage of the Bible except for 1 John, Chapter 5 verses 7 and 8."

more from our friend and CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR Bart Ehrman  Wink

"in the year 1516 he(erasmus) put together the frist printed edition of the greek new testement he didnt include the verse(the ons mentioned above, the ONLY verses which teach the supposely trinity which later become known as a forgery Kiss) becuase it wasnt in the manuscripts. and the latin theologists went balalistic.  according to the story erasmus said look its not in any of the greek manuscripts, and they(the lantin theologists) said but yes its part of the churchs doctrine! you have gotten rid of the Trinity! and Erasmus said look if you can produce a Greek manuscipt that has it in it(the verse in question), I will include it in my next edition. SO THEY PRODUCED A GREEK MANUSCIPT!(they made one LOL!)


Doctor James White believes the Trinity was revealed AFTER the old Testament. Thus he believes the Trinity was not their either.


These are words from your OWN CHRISTAN SCHOLARS!! not from a muslim.

Yes, I am very familiar with Dr. Craig, Dr. White and Dr. Ehrman.  Again, the term trinity was later coined by the church (ahmed has confirmed this), but scripture already contained the unnamed concept.  God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit are fully represented in biblical scripture.  Dr. Craig also has fully validated that over 99% of the NT is completely accurate and intact from the earliest, most reliable forms....for what it's worth.  Although, your posting doesn't express it, Craig and White also fully support, preach, lecture and debate (in defense of) the trinity.
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« Reply #216 on: January 03, 2013, 01:32:13 PM »

99% accurate? No he hasn't lol, he has in fact proven what we've been repeating over and over again. Not our words, but words of Christians who know the scriptures and not just fundamentalist evangelists who are all blinded by blind faith... and who even go as far as saying the bible is the word of God.

He was in fact a fundamentalist evangelist and studied under them as well but the more knowledge he received, the more he studied, the more he realized that these are lies he's been fed.

He has had a chance to look at the actual parchments and can attest that there are millions of errors, manipulations, forgeries, etc...
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« Reply #217 on: January 03, 2013, 01:45:37 PM »

Bart Ehrman is not a Christian.  He is an agnostic.
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« Reply #218 on: January 03, 2013, 01:54:43 PM »

99% accurate? No he hasn't lol, he has in fact proven what we've been repeating over and over again. Not our words, but words of Christians who know the scriptures and not just fundamentalist evangelists who are all blinded by blind faith... and who even go as far as saying the bible is the word of God.

He was in fact a fundamentalist evangelist and studied under them as well but the more knowledge he received, the more he studied, the more he realized that these are lies he's been fed.

He has had a chance to look at the actual parchments and can attest that there are millions of errors, manipulations, forgeries, etc...

No, millions is a word used by anti-Christian extremists for the sake of impact, but minor variations in the minutia of scripture have been estimated at say 300,000 to 400,000.  You do realize how these amounts are calculated?  Let's say there are 5000 manuscripts that are identical and each contains 20 words and 25 letters that vary from an earlier document they were sourced from - keeping in mind that the message and content are completely intact and accurate despite the variation in minutia.  Those 20 word variations and 25 letter differences are then multiplied by the 5000 total, identical manuscripts.  Presto, there are at least 225,000 errors in the bible!!  When in actually there were about 50 minute variances.  Then factor in that scribes misspelled something, omitted a word accidentally, accidentally deleted a line, repeated "thee" or "thou" twice.   Take those 5000 manuscripts and factor in 20 of those types of errors for all 5000 and you have another 100,000 errors.  Now we have a total of 325,000 errors in the bible!!  
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« Reply #219 on: January 03, 2013, 01:57:47 PM »

Bart Ehrman is not a Christian.  He is an agnostic.

You know what, you are absolutely correct.  I was thinking of Dr. Paul Copan.  That was my mistake.  Dr. Ehrman has debated Dr. Craig in the past.  I've modified my post above because of my mistake.
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« Reply #220 on: January 03, 2013, 02:16:05 PM »

You know what, you are absolutely correct.  I was thinking of Dr. Paul Copan.  That was my mistake.  Dr. Ehrman has debated Dr. Craig in the past.  I've modified my post above because of my mistake.

And you sir are correct in that William Lane Craig fully supports the Trinity and fervently debates in favor of the Trinity. 

An interesting fact too is that William Lane Craig graduated from and later taught at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.   Grin
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« Reply #221 on: January 03, 2013, 02:26:24 PM »

And you sir are correct in that William Lane Craig fully supports the Trinity and fervently debates in favor of the Trinity. 

An interesting fact too is that William Lane Craig graduated from and later taught at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.   Grin

I've been watching his debates for a couple of years now and I'm the middle of his book "Reasonable Faith".  It's a bit heady, but still interesting.  He has to be the foremost expert on the Kalam Cosmological Argument that I know of.
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« Reply #222 on: January 03, 2013, 03:05:35 PM »

You haven't obviously watched any of his lectures or read any of his books. That's just silly.

He outlines some pretty radical manipulations and forgeries it's not 'minute changes'. He points to those being tens upon tens of thousands indeed. He also talks about the manipulations and foregeries.

Some of those 'minute changes' as you like to call them are significant enough as well as changing a word can change the whole meaning of something dramatically. For example to allure to the trinity or to have absolutely nothing to do with the trinity.

He points to fabricated stories, where lines were added, moved or removed throughout parchments in the books how stories moved around and where placed in different locations to add flavour or distinct manipulated meaning. Intended meaning vs actual meaning. etc...

One big forgery is the story of the prostitute. Why? Because it allures to doctrine. Disobeying the law (which Jesus would have not done) and coming up with a clever line to showcase 'mercy' of sorts. He talks about this deliberate development and forgery as one such example to reinforce the church doctrine that was developing.

As we all know 300-400 years after in particular.

These 'minute' changes as you call them are big changes in the long run as we can see today.

That's why in islam we say:

The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Every innovation is misguidance and going astray" Reported by Abu Daawood (no. 4607), at-Tirmidhee (no. 2676) and it is saheeh. Ibn Hajr authenticated it Takhreej Ahaadeeth Ibn ul-Haajib (1/137).

And he (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) also said: "… and every innovation is misguidance and all misguidance is in the Hellfire." Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (1/224) from Jaabir bin Abdullaah and it is saheeh as declared by Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah in Majmoo' ul-Fataawaa (3/58).


Point a flash light at a wall straight, it will be a straight line. Make a 1* change at the starting point of the flash light and that change at the wall will be far more than just 1*. It will be way off course.

That's why God sent prophets and messengers repeatedly to bring people back to the truth once they've swerved off the true and straight path.

The Prophet   said, "Leave me as I leave you, for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their prophets. So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can."Hadith - Bukhari 9:391, Narrated Abu Huraira 
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« Reply #223 on: January 03, 2013, 03:17:46 PM »

You haven't obviously watched any of his lectures or read any of his books. That's just silly.

He outlines some pretty radical manipulations and forgeries it's not 'minute changes'. He points to those being tens upon tens of thousands indeed. He also talks about the manipulations and foregeries.

Some of those 'minute changes' as you like to call them are significant enough as well as changing a word can change the whole meaning of something dramatically. For example to allure to the trinity or to have absolutely nothing to do with the trinity.

He points to fabricated stories, where lines were added, moved or removed throughout parchments in the books how stories moved around and where placed in different locations to add flavour or distinct manipulated meaning. Intended meaning vs actual meaning. etc...

One big forgery is the story of the prostitute. Why? Because it allures to doctrine. Disobeying the law (which Jesus would have not done) and coming up with a clever line to showcase 'mercy' of sorts. He talks about this deliberate development and forgery as one such example to reinforce the church doctrine that was developing.

As we all know 300-400 years after in particular.

These 'minute' changes as you call them are big changes in the long run as we can see today.

That's why in islam we say:

The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Every innovation is misguidance and going astray" Reported by Abu Daawood (no. 4607), at-Tirmidhee (no. 2676) and it is saheeh. Ibn Hajr authenticated it Takhreej Ahaadeeth Ibn ul-Haajib (1/137).

And he (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) also said: "… and every innovation is misguidance and all misguidance is in the Hellfire." Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (1/224) from Jaabir bin Abdullaah and it is saheeh as declared by Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah in Majmoo' ul-Fataawaa (3/58).


Point a flash light at a wall straight, it will be a straight line. Make a 1* change at the starting point of the flash light and that change at the wall will be far more than just 1*. It will be way off course.

That's why God sent prophets and messengers repeatedly to bring people back to the truth once they've swerved off the true and straight path.

The Prophet   said, "Leave me as I leave you, for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their prophets. So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can."Hadith - Bukhari 9:391, Narrated Abu Huraira 


No I don't own a copy of "Jesus Misquoted" and have not read it. 

I have watched him debate and wasn't particularly impressed or disappointed....was more left with a feeling of "meh".
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« Reply #224 on: January 03, 2013, 03:20:42 PM »

Bart Ehrman is not a Christian.  He is an agnostic.

he WAS a christian unil he saw the amount of deception, lies, contradictions and mistakes. how can a sane person still even consider reading the Bible after it is well know to have certain verses played with?
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