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Author Topic: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit  (Read 10965 times)
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« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2012, 10:46:12 AM »

VERY POOR LOGIC, The word Bible or the Bible is not mentioned or talked about in the Bible

lol so its "very poor logic" to expect scriptural confirmation of fundamental beliefs?

Yes the word Bible is not mentioned in the Bible, which reinforces that it's an incomplete collection of manuscripts.
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« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2012, 11:05:09 AM »

Isaiah 9:6

New International Version (NIV)


For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.



* Jesus.jpg (73.82 KB, 752x600 - viewed 315 times.)
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« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2012, 11:35:27 AM »

That's cute, however, the Jews did not smile and have a happy happy fairy tale in a barn.

The fact is, the Jews called marry a whore and all kinds of other names. This is in their writings, in the talmud, etc...

The islamic narrative of Mary was that she kept away from the people.

The fact is, she got pregnant without being married, something that outraged everyone to accuse her of adultery and other lewdness.

Your image is fancy art but not reality. The Jews rejected Jesus (peace be upon him) as the messiah.

They wanted to put Mary (peace be upon her) to death as well.

The daughter of a priest is to be put to death by fire according to Jewish law:

"'If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire. Leviticus 21:9

She was under the care of Zacharia (peace be upon him) who served in the temple as well as Mary (pbuh) did too.

They made all kinds of accusations against both of them.
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« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2012, 12:08:30 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9MvU7mNIc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9MvU7mNIc</a>

Watch this, it explains it all!!

go to 5:00 if you dont want to watch the whole thing.
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« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2012, 12:17:34 PM »

so God is a split personality ? a divine three legged stool
explains alot
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« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2012, 12:29:26 PM »

so God is a split personality ? a divine three legged stool
explains alot

Allah is one.
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« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2012, 12:49:17 PM »

Allah is one.

did she tell you that?
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« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2012, 01:03:19 PM »

so God is a split personality ? a divine three legged stool
explains alot

What's so hard to understand about God being three persons in one God?

You are three in one as well:  body, mind and soul.  God is just much more complex because he is God, but still three in one like you are.
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« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2012, 01:55:50 PM »

^It's called bipolar or in this case tripolar disorder and you making stuff up  because you have no certainty or proof. The proofs of scripture are not in your favour either. Neither is philosophical debate. Neither is rational thought. They all go against your trinitarianism. Trinity did not exist until after Jesus (pbuh). These teachings are foreign to the teachings of Jesus. It's the pagan polution of the romans, the very enemies of Jesus, the Jews and the believing people.

God is not three. God is one as Jesus said:

Hear oh Israel OUR Lord God is one

You are closer to Hindus than you are to Muslims and Jews (Jesus was a Jew).

Hindus also believe there is 'only one God', according to their scriptures, however they further invent that there are 'three main gods', and then they go further with the brahman priests saying the peasent lower castes are dumb so they need to worship many gods and idols to get 'closer to God' and thus you have 'millions of gods'... and God is 'in everything'. Dwelling in people, nature, things, idols, objects. etc...

Sounds a lot closer to what you are preaching than to what Jews and Muslims preach as far as pure monotheism is concerned.
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« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2012, 02:24:59 PM »

One example I love to cite as far as trinitarianism is concerned and this notion of God being bipolar or not knowing things is the verse about "the hour".

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mark 13:32

The hilarious thing is, certain christian theologians say that when Jesus 'god' was in 'flesh', he chose deliberately to be ignorant of the hour lol... UNTIL he returns for 'judgement'... no I am not joking.

Non-sense to a rational person... because this is trying to make things up to prove the trinity NOT use scripture even as evidence to do anything... the scripture as evidence goes against the trinity period.

Plain and simple rational. If Jesus is God, why does he say he doesn't know, angels don't know, no man knows. ONLY the 'father' aka God knows.

This EXACT same situation is posed in the qur'an and certain hadi'ths. Where Muhammad (pbuh) is asked about the hour, arch-angel Gabriel is asked about the hour and the SAME answer is given in the qur'an and hadi'th that NO ONE, no man, no angel, etc... knows about the hour EXCEPT God. The knowlege of the hour is with God.
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« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2012, 06:22:16 PM »

these christans are not even real christans, they do not worship like Jesus did.
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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2012, 12:26:00 PM »

JEWISHNESS AND THE TRINITY

By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Founder/Director of Ariel Ministries

"Shema Yisroel Adonai Elochenu Adonai Echad"

(Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.)

Rabbi Stanley Greenberg of Temple Sinai in Philadelphia wrote:

"Christians are, of course, entitled to believe in a Trinitarian conception of God. but their effort to base this conception on the Hebrew Bible must fly in the face of the overwhelming testimony of that Bible. Hebrew Scriptures are clear and unequivocal on the oneness of God The Hebrew Bible affirms the one God with unmistakable clarity Monotheism, an uncompromising belief in one God, is the hallmark of the Hebrew Bible, the unwavering affirmation of Judaism and the unshakable faith of the Jew."

Whether Christians are accused of being polytheists or tritheists and whether or not it is admitted that the Christian concept of the Tri-unity is a form of monotheism, one element always appears: one cannot believe in the Trinity and be Jewish. Even if what Christians believe is monotheistic, it still does not seem to be monotheistic enough to qualify as true Jewishness. Rabbi Greenberg's article tends to reflect that thinking.

He went on to say, "... under no circumstances can a concept of a plurality of the Godhead or a trinity of the Godhead ever be based upon the Hebrew Bible." It is perhaps best to begin with the very source of Jewish theology and the only means of testing it: Hebrew Scriptures. Since so much relies on Hebrew Scripture usage, then to the Hebrew we should turn.

GOD IS A PLURALITY

The Name Elohim


It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending "im." The very word Elohim used of the true God in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," is also used in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods (Elohim) before Me," and in Deuteronomy 13:2, "Let us go after other gods (Elohim)... ." While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead since it is the word that is used for the one true God as well as for the many false gods.

Plural Verbs Used With Elohim

Virtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When "Elohim" is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:

"But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is "bara," which means "he created" - singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God."

The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:

Genesis 20:13: And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander (Literally: THEY caused me to wander) from my father's house ...

Genesis 35:7: ... because there God (Elohim) appeared to him ... (Literally: THEY appeared to him.)

2 Samuel 7:23: ... God (Elohim) went ... (Literally: THEY went.)

Psalm 58 Surely He is God who judges ... (Literally: THEY judge.)

The Name Eloah

If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could easily have been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.

Plural Pronouns

Another case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:

Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..."

He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage and comments as follows:

Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to the verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the universe, why do you give here with an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)" God answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err, let him err." (Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26 [New York NOP Press, N.D.])

It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is simply trying to get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to himself in the plural.

The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen In the following:

Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us''

Genesis 11:7: "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.''

Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"

This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular "I" and the plural "us'' except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).

Plural Descriptions of God

Another point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:

Ecclesiastes 12:1: Remember now your Creator ... (Literally: CREATORS.)

Psalm 149:2: Let Israel rejoice in their Maker. (Literally: MAKERS.)

Joshua 24:19: ... holy God ... (Literally: HOLY GODS.)

Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your husband. (Literally: MAKERS, HUSBANDS.)

Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.

The Shema

Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Deuteronomy 6:4, known as the SHEMA, has always been Israel's great confession. It is this verse more than any other that is used to affirm the fact that God is one and is often used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?

On the one hand it should be noted that the very words "our God" are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods." However, the main argument lies in the word "one," which is the Hebrew word, ECHAD. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute "one" but a compound "one."

For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two "shall become one (echad) flesh." In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.

There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is YACHID, which is found in many Scripture passages, (Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21: 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10) the emphasis being on the meaning of "only." If Moses intended to teach God's absolute oneness as over against a compound unity, this would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of "yachid' and chose to use that word in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith'' in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use "yachid" in reference to God.

GOD IS AT LEAST TWO

Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities


As if to make the case for plurality even stronger. there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:6-7:

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed him with the oil of gladness.

A second example is Hosea 1:7:

"Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen."

The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24:

"Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens."

Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.

A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:

"For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."

Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.

The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton (1) and wrote:

"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit ." (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew editions. (See also Sonclno Press edition, Vol III, 134.)

GOD IS THREE

How Many Persons are There?

If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities exist in the Godhead? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures we find that three, and only three, distinct personalities are ever considered divine.

1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.

2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where he is found he is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH himself. For instance in Genesis 16:7 he is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH himself. In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of YHVH, but God himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given. (2)

A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God's own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God's own name is in this angel shows his divine status.

3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to simply as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 63:10,14. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because he has all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.

So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.

The Three Personalities in the Same Passage

In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me."

It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of "I" and "me" and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse seven, the Angel of YHVH in verse nine and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel's redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

Conclusion

The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH, while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.

If the concept of the Tri-unity of God is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when the Lord said:

"Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off'' (Exodus 23:20-23).

New Testament Light

In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: "What is His name, and what is His Son's name If you know?'' His Son's name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel.

Furthermore, he is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.

The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament He is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament relating to the Tri-unity of God.

(1) "Personal Name of God of Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was "Adonai" ("the Lord"), itself later replaced by "ha-Shem" (the Name). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of "Adonai." Encyclopedia Dictionary of Judaica, 593.

2) In Genesis 31 he is the Angel of God in verse 11, but then he is the God of Bethel in verse 13. In Exodus 3 he is the Angel of YHVH in verse two and he is both YHVH and God in verse four. In Judges 6 he is the Angel of YHVH in verses 11,12, 20 and 21, but is YHVH himself in verses 14, 16, 22 and 23. Then in Judges 13:3 and 21 he is the Angel of YHVH but is referred to as God himself in verse 22.

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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2012, 12:36:46 PM »

JEWISHNESS AND THE TRINITY

By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Founder/Director of Ariel Ministries

"Shema Yisroel Adonai Elochenu Adonai Echad"

(Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.)

Rabbi Stanley Greenberg of Temple Sinai in Philadelphia wrote:

"Christians are, of course, entitled to believe in a Trinitarian conception of God. but their effort to base this conception on the Hebrew Bible must fly in the face of the overwhelming testimony of that Bible. Hebrew Scriptures are clear and unequivocal on the oneness of God The Hebrew Bible affirms the one God with unmistakable clarity Monotheism, an uncompromising belief in one God, is the hallmark of the Hebrew Bible, the unwavering affirmation of Judaism and the unshakable faith of the Jew."

Whether Christians are accused of being polytheists or tritheists and whether or not it is admitted that the Christian concept of the Tri-unity is a form of monotheism, one element always appears: one cannot believe in the Trinity and be Jewish. Even if what Christians believe is monotheistic, it still does not seem to be monotheistic enough to qualify as true Jewishness. Rabbi Greenberg's article tends to reflect that thinking.

He went on to say, "... under no circumstances can a concept of a plurality of the Godhead or a trinity of the Godhead ever be based upon the Hebrew Bible." It is perhaps best to begin with the very source of Jewish theology and the only means of testing it: Hebrew Scriptures. Since so much relies on Hebrew Scripture usage, then to the Hebrew we should turn.

GOD IS A PLURALITY

The Name Elohim


It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending "im." The very word Elohim used of the true God in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," is also used in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods (Elohim) before Me," and in Deuteronomy 13:2, "Let us go after other gods (Elohim)... ." While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead since it is the word that is used for the one true God as well as for the many false gods.

Plural Verbs Used With Elohim

Virtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When "Elohim" is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:

"But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is "bara," which means "he created" - singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God."

The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:

Genesis 20:13: And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander (Literally: THEY caused me to wander) from my father's house ...

Genesis 35:7: ... because there God (Elohim) appeared to him ... (Literally: THEY appeared to him.)

2 Samuel 7:23: ... God (Elohim) went ... (Literally: THEY went.)

Psalm 58 Surely He is God who judges ... (Literally: THEY judge.)

The Name Eloah

If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could easily have been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.

Plural Pronouns

Another case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:

Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..."

He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage and comments as follows:

Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to the verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the universe, why do you give here with an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)" God answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err, let him err." (Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26 [New York NOP Press, N.D.])

It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is simply trying to get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to himself in the plural.

The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen In the following:

Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us''

Genesis 11:7: "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.''

Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"

This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular "I" and the plural "us'' except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).

Plural Descriptions of God

Another point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:

Ecclesiastes 12:1: Remember now your Creator ... (Literally: CREATORS.)

Psalm 149:2: Let Israel rejoice in their Maker. (Literally: MAKERS.)

Joshua 24:19: ... holy God ... (Literally: HOLY GODS.)

Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your husband. (Literally: MAKERS, HUSBANDS.)

Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.

The Shema

Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Deuteronomy 6:4, known as the SHEMA, has always been Israel's great confession. It is this verse more than any other that is used to affirm the fact that God is one and is often used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?

On the one hand it should be noted that the very words "our God" are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods." However, the main argument lies in the word "one," which is the Hebrew word, ECHAD. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute "one" but a compound "one."

For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two "shall become one (echad) flesh." In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.

There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is YACHID, which is found in many Scripture passages, (Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21: 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10) the emphasis being on the meaning of "only." If Moses intended to teach God's absolute oneness as over against a compound unity, this would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of "yachid' and chose to use that word in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith'' in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use "yachid" in reference to God.

GOD IS AT LEAST TWO

Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities


As if to make the case for plurality even stronger. there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:6-7:

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed him with the oil of gladness.

A second example is Hosea 1:7:

"Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen."

The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24:

"Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens."

Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.

A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:

"For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."

Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.

The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton (1) and wrote:

"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit ." (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew editions. (See also Sonclno Press edition, Vol III, 134.)

GOD IS THREE

How Many Persons are There?

If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities exist in the Godhead? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures we find that three, and only three, distinct personalities are ever considered divine.

1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.

2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where he is found he is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH himself. For instance in Genesis 16:7 he is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH himself. In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of YHVH, but God himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given. (2)

A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God's own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God's own name is in this angel shows his divine status.

3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to simply as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 63:10,14. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because he has all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.

So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.

The Three Personalities in the Same Passage

In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me."

It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of "I" and "me" and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse seven, the Angel of YHVH in verse nine and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel's redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

Conclusion

The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH, while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.

If the concept of the Tri-unity of God is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when the Lord said:

"Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off'' (Exodus 23:20-23).

New Testament Light

In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: "What is His name, and what is His Son's name If you know?'' His Son's name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel.

Furthermore, he is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.

The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament He is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament relating to the Tri-unity of God.

(1) "Personal Name of God of Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was "Adonai" ("the Lord"), itself later replaced by "ha-Shem" (the Name). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of "Adonai." Encyclopedia Dictionary of Judaica, 593.

2) In Genesis 31 he is the Angel of God in verse 11, but then he is the God of Bethel in verse 13. In Exodus 3 he is the Angel of YHVH in verse two and he is both YHVH and God in verse four. In Judges 6 he is the Angel of YHVH in verses 11,12, 20 and 21, but is YHVH himself in verses 14, 16, 22 and 23. Then in Judges 13:3 and 21 he is the Angel of YHVH but is referred to as God himself in verse 22.

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Excellent read.

Be aware that any suggestion of "Plural Pronouns" for the sake of the trinity will be hit with the ole "royal plural" pronoun usage comeback....suggesting that "royal plurals" used in hebrew don't indicate the trinity.  Most likely that logic will be applied against other sections of the article whether that defense is correct or relevant.

Also any quoting of scripture outside of the Torah will be simply deemed as "corrupted" and ignored, but even the Torah will be deemed "corrupted" if it doesn't work in the opposition's favor....cherry picking at its finest.   But of course, any verse selected by the opposition is never "corrupted" and anything used as a Christian defense is either "fully corrupted" or "highly suspect".....after all we're nothing but "Pauline Christian's" and any follower of that "liar Paul" is a glorified pagan LOL!!

In addition, Deut 6:4 is the kinda "go-to argument positioning" for those that oppose the trinity.  If all else fails hit em with Deut 6:4...it's the "knock out punch" that packs about as much whallop as a declawed, newborn kitten.  It does nothing but justify the Christian position of monotheism, but hey "it's a response".

There's a canned response for almost everything regardless of that response being invalid or "forced to fit" incorrectly.

FYI and I'll be praying for you!!
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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2012, 09:11:01 PM »

Isaiah 9:6

New International Version (NIV)


For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.



Unfortunately the old testament uses the word "god" quite liberally - ex. Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'you are gods', you are all sons of the Most High" and again in Isaiah 9:6 example you just gave.  Even if "mighty god" in Isaiah 9:6 meant something different than Psalm 82:6, the verse does not say that Jesus will be God, but that "he will be called" mighty god, among other names such as prince of peace, everlasting father, etc.

I think it's pretty weak that from the whole bible that's the best example there is to to try to claim that Jesus was God?
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2012, 11:03:35 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Kbgdf-TLA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Kbgdf-TLA</a>

Watch this guys. it will do you alot of good both Muslims and non-muslims.
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« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2012, 06:52:36 AM »

Unfortunately the old testament uses the word "god" quite liberally - ex. Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'you are gods', you are all sons of the Most High" and again in Isaiah 9:6 example you just gave.  Even if "mighty god" in Isaiah 9:6 meant something different than Psalm 82:6, the verse does not say that Jesus will be God, but that "he will be called" mighty god, among other names such as prince of peace, everlasting father, etc.

I think it's pretty weak that from the whole bible that's the best example there is to to try to claim that Jesus was God?

No.  In this thread alone I have provided an overwhelming amount of Biblical material, both Old and New Testaments, that supports the deity of Jesus Christ, along with Jewish Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's great article.  I am still waiting for you to address the rest of the material I have posted so that I can address your posts, of which I have already seen mistakes on your part.
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« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2012, 08:10:01 AM »

No.  In this thread alone I have provided an overwhelming amount of Biblical material, both Old and New Testaments, that supports the deity of Jesus Christ, along with Jewish Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's great article.  I am still waiting for you to address the rest of the material I have posted so that I can address your posts, of which I have already seen mistakes on your part.

Agreed, you have, and God bless you for it!!   

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« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2012, 08:18:19 AM »

No.  In this thread alone I have provided an overwhelming amount of Biblical material, both Old and New Testaments, that supports the deity of Jesus Christ, along with Jewish Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's great article.  I am still waiting for you to address the rest of the material I have posted so that I can address your posts, of which I have already seen mistakes on your part.

I haven't read the article you pasted and I can't promise I will as I rarely read lengthy copy-pasted material unless it's something I find very intriguing. 

And I have no idea what "overwhelming amount of Biblical material supporting the deity of Jesus Christ" you're referring to, I haven't found any such evidence in this thread.  I just noticed your post with the verse from Isaiah and I responded showing that's no evidence of the Bible calling Jesus God.

And what are you waiting for me to address?  Why am I always the last to know these things lol.
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« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2012, 08:31:55 AM »

Unfortunately the old testament uses the word "god" quite liberally - ex. Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'you are gods', you are all sons of the Most High" and again in Isaiah 9:6 example you just gave.  Even if "mighty god" in Isaiah 9:6 meant something different than Psalm 82:6, the verse does not say that Jesus will be God, but that "he will be called" mighty god, among other names such as prince of peace, everlasting father, etc.

I think it's pretty weak that from the whole bible that's the best example there is to to try to claim that Jesus was God?
Here is the whole of Pslam 82:

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
    he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
    and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
    uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
    deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
    They walk about in darkness;
    all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
    you are all sons of the Most High.’

7 But you will die like mere mortals;
    you will fall like every other ruler.”

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
    for all the nations are your inheritance.


In John 10:34 Christ directly quotes Pslam 82:6 when discussing with the Pharisees his own claims of divinity:
John 10

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep
10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, 41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

It's that all important context that makes the difference.    Wink
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« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2012, 08:36:32 AM »

I haven't read the article you pasted and I can't promise I will as I rarely read lengthy copy-pasted material unless it's something I find very intriguing.  

And I have no idea what "overwhelming amount of Biblical material supporting the deity of Jesus Christ" you're referring to, I haven't found any such evidence in this thread.  I just noticed your post with the verse from Isaiah and I responded showing that's no evidence of the Bible calling Jesus God.

And what are you waiting for me to address?  Why am I always the last to know these things lol.

The article is by a Jew who knows Hebrew, to shut you guys up who keep saying I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't know Hebrew.  He addresses one of your misguided arguments about the word "LORD" in one of the verses that I posted earlier.

And here is what you said you'd do.  Your words, not mine.  I'm just waiting.  That's all.  

Will do when I have time, and on the one condition that you also do the same when I subsequently post a multitude of verses in this thread which show that Jesus denied being God and clarified that he was a man.  Let me know.


Will respond to the others later, out of time for now.

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« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2012, 08:43:07 AM »

Here is the whole of Pslam 82:

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
    he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
    and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
    uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
    deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
    They walk about in darkness;
    all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
    you are all sons of the Most High.’

7 But you will die like mere mortals;
    you will fall like every other ruler.”

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
    for all the nations are your inheritance.


In John 10:34 Christ directly quotes Pslam 82:6 when discussing with the Pharisees his own claims of divinity:
John 10

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep
10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, 41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

It's that all important context that makes the difference.    Wink




God bless you, Man of Steel!  And Merry Christmas to you and your family!



God bless you too, bigboobs!
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« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2012, 09:07:14 AM »

The article is by a Jew who knows Hebrew, to shut you guys up who keep saying I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't know Hebrew.  He addresses one of your misguided arguments about the word "LORD" in one of the verses that I posted earlier.

And here is what you said you'd do.  Your words, not mine.  I'm just waiting.  That's all.  


Ahh, thanks for reminding me.  I haven't logged on much lately and didn't recall those posts, will try to address them during the holidays.

Still not reading your article unless you can summarize its main point in your own words.
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« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2012, 09:29:59 AM »

Ahh, thanks for reminding me.  I haven't logged on much lately and didn't recall those posts, will try to address them during the holidays.

Still not reading your article unless you can summarize its main point in your own words.

Ye ole classic sidestep....aka, the "Muslim Shuffle" LOL!!   "Hah-Cha-Cha!!  Hello my baby, hello my honey......"


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« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2012, 09:52:39 AM »

Ye ole classic sidestep....aka, the "Muslim Shuffle" LOL!!   "Hah-Cha-Cha!!  Hello my baby, hello my honey......"




Has nothing to do with being Muslim.  Just like you replied once to a video which Ahmed posted saying you're not going to spend the time viewing it.  Does that make it a "Christian Shuffle" lol?  I only have a given amount of time in a day for reading and posting online, so I base what I read on what interests me and the amount of time I have, so when something is condensed I'm much more inclined to read it due to the lack of time involved.

I can start posting links to lengthy pro-Islam articles and saying "aha!  Gotcha!  What's your response?!" and you and loco would likely not try to address it either.  
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« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2012, 11:04:55 AM »

Has nothing to do with being Muslim.  Just like you replied once to a video which Ahmed posted saying you're not going to spend the time viewing it.  Does that make it a "Christian Shuffle" lol?  I only have a given amount of time in a day for reading and posting online, so I base what I read on what interests me and the amount of time I have, so when something is condensed I'm much more inclined to read it due to the lack of time involved.

I can start posting links to lengthy pro-Islam articles and saying "aha!  Gotcha!  What's your response?!" and you and loco would likely not try to address it either.  

The difference was ahmed's video was a random posting, not part of a discussion....he said I needed to make time to watch it.  At that time I couldn't, but I later went back and watched it and spoke to ahmed about it.

loco's article was directly related to and complete justification for the discussion at hand.  Refusal to read copy and pasted material that fully validates a claim (because it's not in the poster's own words) has been a trademark move established by ahmed and adopted by you.....our Muslim bretheren.  Hence, the "Muslim Shuffle".  

Oh, I posted the full chapters because ahmed once accussed me of taking verses out of context.....I hadn't done anything of the sort, but agreed to post the full chapters during discussions to prevent such accusation.  I agreed to do so, ahmed did not; regardless, I'm just holding up my end of the bargain.

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