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Author Topic: David Gregory from meet the depressed in legal trouble  (Read 3033 times)
Straw Man
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« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2012, 06:38:08 PM »

Roll Eyes LOL and you were just making a bitch about others having dumb arguments in all this... 

pointing out the absurdity of suggesting that gun laws don't do any good (i.e. that even with laws we still will have gun violence)

the argument seem to be if we can't get rid of all gun violence then why bother doing anything at all

That is the dumb argument that I"m talking about

Obviously you missed the point too
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Straw Man
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« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2012, 06:39:56 PM »

Why are we limiting them to after columbine?

Oklahoma city and 9/11 have far greater numbers of dead and they didnt use guns...

so you think that these ppl wouldnt have killed anyone if they didnt have access to guns?

fine - show me how many bombing there have been in OK City

btw - aren't there laws to prevent that kind of thing too

they didn't seem to work in that case either
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tonymctones
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« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2012, 06:40:41 PM »

pointing out the absurdity of suggesting that gun laws don't do any good (i.e. that even with laws we still will have gun violence)

the argument seem to be if we can't get rid of all gun violence then why bother doing anything at all

That is the dumb argument that I"m talking about

Obviously you missed the point too
The dumb argument is that by passing legislation that has already proven to not work we can stop crazy ppl from killing others.

All you will be doing is replacing gun violence with other forms of violence and thats IF THE LEGISLATION makes a difference which we all know it wont b/c CRIMINALS DONT FOLLOW LAWS!!!!
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Straw Man
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« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2012, 06:40:51 PM »

So lets clarify your stance straw.

youre ok with crazy ppl killing innocent ppl just not in mass?

what number is to many at one time for you?


do you really truly believe that is my position

be honest
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tonymctones
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« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2012, 06:42:25 PM »

fine - show me how many bombing there have been in OK City

btw - aren't there laws to prevent that kind of thing too

they didn't seem to work in that case either
http://stephenewright.com/fromthebluff/2008/10/23/the-butcher%e2%80%99s-bill-%e2%80%93-non-gun-mass-murders/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=980980

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/07/aurora_shooting_how_did_people_commit_mass_murder_before_automatic_weapons_.html

"Guns arenít even the most lethal mass murder weapon. According to data compiled by Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections, guns killed an average of 4.92 victims per mass murder in the United States during the 20th century, just edging out knives, blunt objects, and bare hands, which killed 4.52 people per incident. Fire killed 6.82 people per mass murder, while explosives far outpaced the other options at 20.82. Of the 25 deadliest mass murders in the 20th century, only 52 percent involved guns."




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Straw Man
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« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2012, 06:42:45 PM »

The dumb argument is that by passing legislation that has already proven to not work we can stop crazy ppl from killing others.[/b]

All you will be doing is replacing gun violence with other forms of violence and thats IF THE LEGISLATION makes a difference which we all know it wont b/c CRIMINALS DONT FOLLOW LAWS!!!!

why do you keep making that idiotic statement when I've told you repeatedly that is NOT was the purpose of some of the proposed ideas

I seriously don't understand when I've told you this many time why you keep repeating it

are you stupid or just playing stupid?

I'm having hard time telling the difference at this point
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tonymctones
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« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2012, 06:42:57 PM »

btw - aren't there laws to prevent that kind of thing too

they didn't seem to work in that case either
THATS B/C THEY DIDNT ADDRESS THE FUKING PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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tonymctones
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« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2012, 06:44:36 PM »

do you really truly believe that is my position

be honest
If you truly believe that guns are a part of the problem then yes....

if you believe that the problem is crazy ppl wanting to kill others it doesnt matter if its one or twenty that they kill.

But you want to focus in on guns knowing full well that even if they dont have guns they will still kill ppl.

So your problem isnt that they want to kill others its that they want to kill others in mass.....
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Straw Man
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« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2012, 06:44:42 PM »

http://stephenewright.com/fromthebluff/2008/10/23/the-butcher%e2%80%99s-bill-%e2%80%93-non-gun-mass-murders/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=980980

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/07/aurora_shooting_how_did_people_commit_mass_murder_before_automatic_weapons_.html

"Guns arenít even the most lethal mass murder weapon. According to data compiled by Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections, guns killed an average of 4.92 victims per mass murder in the United States during the 20th century, just edging out knives, blunt objects, and bare hands, which killed 4.52 people per incident. Fire killed 6.82 people per mass murder, while explosives far outpaced the other options at 20.82. Of the 25 deadliest mass murders in the 20th century, only 52 percent involved guns."

so no recent examples ?

why didn't the shooter in CT just break into the school and use his bare hands to kill all those kids or why didn't he just set them on fire

you know why

because the gun was a lot easier and more efficient

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Straw Man
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« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2012, 06:46:19 PM »

THATS B/C THEY DIDNT ADDRESS THE FUKING PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we don't agree on the problem so we'll never agree on the solution

moreover you either seem to choose to draw patently absurd conclusions or you are really truly believe absurd positions on the subject

not much farther to go here
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tonymctones
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« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2012, 07:02:06 PM »

so no recent examples ?

why didn't the shooter in CT just break into the school and use his bare hands to kill all those kids or why didn't he just set them on fire

you know why

because the gun was a lot easier and more efficient
There were plenty of recent examples in those 3 links...

Easier maybe more efficient not hardly...did you pay attention to my post earlier?

"Guns arenít even the most lethal mass murder weapon. According to data compiled by Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections, guns killed an average of 4.92 victims per mass murder in the United States during the 20th century, just edging out knives, blunt objects, and bare hands, which killed 4.52 people per incident. Fire killed 6.82 people per mass murder, while explosives far outpaced the other options at 20.82. Of the 25 deadliest mass murders in the 20th century, only 52 percent involved guns."

Read that again straw explosives are the most efficient

Do you think this kid wouldnt have killed ppl without guns?

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tonymctones
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« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2012, 07:04:11 PM »

we don't agree on the problem so we'll never agree on the solution

moreover you either seem to choose to draw patently absurd conclusions or you are really truly believe absurd positions on the subject

not much farther to go here
yes your view is that the problem is that crazy ppl want to use guns to kill mass amounts of ppl.

and your solution is to limit the access to types of accessories for guns to help limit the amount of killings.

Nevermind that the urge to kill mass amounts of ppl is still perfectly intact and that there are a plethora of ways to do so.

Bravo at your pragmatism!!!!!
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tonymctones
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« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2012, 07:07:02 PM »


really, so if guns aren't part of the problem then show me all the mass murder since Columbine that didn't include a gun

Here's the list of all the mass murders from Columbine forward that did include a gun

On Friday morning, 27 people were reportedly shot and killed at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, CT. According to sources, 18 of these casualties were children. This is the second mass shooting in the US this week, after a gunman opened fire in an Oregon shopping mall on Tuesday, killing 2. ABC News reports that there have been 31 school shootings in the US since Columbine in 1999, when 13 people were killed.
The rate of people killed by guns in the US is 19.5 times higher than similar high-income countries in the world. In the last 30 years since 1982, America has mourned at least 61 mass murders. Below is a timeline of mass shootings in the US since the Columbine High massacre:


December 11, 2012. On Tuesday, 22-year-old Jacob Tyler Roberts killed 2 people and himself with a stolen rifle in Clackamas Town Center, Oregon. His motive is unknown.

September 27, 2012. Five were shot to death by 36-year-old Andrew Engeldinger at Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, MN. Three others were wounded. Engeldinger went on a rampage after losing his job, ultimately killing himself.

August 5, 2012. Six Sikh temple members were killed when 40-year-old US Army veteran Wade Michael Page opened fire in a gurdwara in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Four others were injured, and Page killed himself.

July 20, 2012. During the midnight premiere of The Dark Knight Rises in Aurora, CO, 24-year-old James Holmes killed 12 people and wounded 58. Holmes was arrested outside the theater.

May 29, 2012. Ian Stawicki opened fire on Cafe Racer Espresso in Seattle, WA, killing 5 and himself after a citywide manhunt.

April 6, 2012. Jake England, 19, and Alvin Watts, 32, shot 5 black men in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in racially motivated shooting spree. Three died.

April 2, 2012. A former student, 43-year-old One L. Goh killed 7 people at Oikos University, a Korean Christian college in Oakland, CA. The shooting was the sixth-deadliest school massacre in the US and the deadliest attack on a school since the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre.

February 27, 2012. Three students were killed by Thomas “TJ” Lane, another student, in a rampage at Chardon High School in Chardon, OH. Three others were injured.

October 14, 2011. Eight people died in a shooting at Salon Meritage hair salon in Seal Beach, CA. The gunman, 41-year-old Scott Evans Dekraai, killed six women and two men dead, while just one woman survived. It was Orange County’s deadliest mass killing.

September 6, 2011. Eduardo Sencion, 32, entered an IHOP restaurant in Carson City, NV and shot 12 people. Five died, including three National Guard members.

January 8, 2011. Former Rep. Gabby Giffords (D-AZ) was shot in the head when 22-year-old Jared Loughner opened fire on an event she was holding at a Safeway market in Tucson, AZ. Six people died, including Arizona District Court Chief Judge John Roll, one of Giffords’ staffers, and a 9-year-old girl. 19 total were shot. Loughner has been sentenced to seven life terms plus 140 years, without parole.

August 3, 2010. Omar S. Thornton, 34, gunned down Hartford Beer Distributor in Manchester, CT after getting caught stealing beer. Nine were killed, including Thornton, and two were injured.

November 5, 2009. Forty-three people were shot by Army psychiatrist Nidal Malik Hasan at the Fort Hood army base in Texas. Hasan reportedly yelled “Allahu Akbar!” before opening fire, killing 13 and wounding 29 others.

April 3, 2009. Jiverly Wong, 41, opened fire at an immigration center in Binghamton, New York before committing suicide. He killed 13 people and wounded 4.

March 29, 2009. Eight people died in a shooting at the Pinelake Health and Rehab nursing home in Carthage, NC. The gunman, 45-year-old Robert Stewart, was targeting his estranged wife who worked at the home and survived. Stewart was sentenced to life in prison.

February 14, 2008. Steven Kazmierczak, 27, opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University, killing 6 and wounding 21. The gunman shot and killed himself before police arrived. It was the fifth-deadliest university shooting in US history.

February 7, 2008. Six people died and two were injured in a shooting spree at the City Hall in Kirkwood, Missouri. The gunman, Charles Lee Thornton, opened fire during a public meeting after being denied construction contracts he believed he deserved. Thornton was killed by police.

December 5, 2007. A 19-year-old boy, Robert Hawkins, shot up a department store in the Westroads Mall in Omaha, NE. Hawkins killed 9 people and wounded 4 before killing himself. The semi-automatic rifle he used was stolen from his stepfather’s house.

April 16, 2007. Virginia Tech became the site of the deadliest school shooting in US history when a student, Seung-Hui Choi, gunned down 56 people. Thirty-two people died in the massacre.

February 12, 2007. In Salt Lake City’s Trolley Square Mall, 5 people were shot to death and 4 others were wounded by 18-year-old gunman Sulejman Talović. One of the victims was a 16-year-old boy.

October 2, 2006. An Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster, PA was gunned down by 32-year-old Charles Carl Roberts, Roberts separated the boys from the girls, binding and shooting the girls. 5 young girls died, while 6 were injured. Roberts committed suicide afterward.

March 25, 2006. Seven died and 2 were injured by 28-year-old Kyle Aaron Huff in a shooting spree through Capitol Hill in Seattle, WA. The massacre was the worst killing in Seattle since 1983.

March 21, 2005. Teenager Jeffrey Weise killed his grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend before opening fire on Red Lake Senior High School, killing 9 people on campus and injuring 5. Weise killed himself.

March 12, 2005. A Living Church of God meeting was gunned down by 44-year-old church member Terry Michael Ratzmann at a Sheraton hotel in Brookfield, WI. Ratzmann was thought to have had religious motivations, and killed himself after executing the pastor, the pastor’s 16-year-old son, and 7 others. Four were wounded.

July 8, 2003. Doug Williams, a Lockheed Martin employee, shot up his plant in Meridian, MS in a racially-motivated rampage. He shot 14 people, most of them African American, and killed 7 before killing himself.

December 26, 2000. Edgewater Technology employee Michael “Mucko” McDermott shot and killed seven of his coworkers at the office in Wakefield, MA. McDermott claimed he had “traveled back in time and killed Hitler and the last 6 Nazis.” He was sentenced to 7 consecutive life sentences.

September 15, 1999. Larry Gene Ashbrook opened fire on a Christian rock concert and teen prayer rally at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, TX. He killed 7 people and wounded 7 others, almost all teenagers. Ashbrook committed suicide.

July 29, 1999. Mark Orrin Barton, 44, murdered his wife and two children with a hammer before shooting up two Atlanta day trading firms. Barton, a day trader, was believed to be motivated by huge monetary losses. He killed 12 including his family and injured 13 before killing himself.

April 20, 1999. In the deadliest high school shooting in US history, teenagers Eric Harris and Dylan Kiebold shot up Columbine High School in Littleton, CO. They killed 13 people and wounded 21 others. They killed themselves after the massacre.
How many of these incidents involved high cap magazines straw?
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Straw Man
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« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2012, 07:08:57 PM »

There were plenty of recent examples in those 3 links...

Easier maybe more efficient not hardly...did you pay attention to my post earlier?

"Guns arenít even the most lethal mass murder weapon. According to data compiled by Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections, guns killed an average of 4.92 victims per mass murder in the United States during the 20th century, just edging out knives, blunt objects, and bare hands, which killed 4.52 people per incident. Fire killed 6.82 people per mass murder, while explosives far outpaced the other options at 20.82. Of the 25 deadliest mass murders in the 20th century, only 52 percent involved guns."

Read that again straw explosives are the most efficient

Do you think this kid wouldnt have killed ppl without guns?



you takes from ALL kinds of violent events (many where guns probalby weren't even available) and then try to use that as some kind of proof of what exactly.....?

I don't think this kid would have been able to kill 27 people without being stopped first if he did not have a gun

btw - I'm not suggesting nor have never suggested we can or should get rid of all guns

All I've ever said is that we can try to do some things to 1) lessen the incidents of gun violence and 2) lessen the loss of life when gun violence happens

THAT'S IT

THAT'S ALL I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS ENTIRE TIME

It's not going to totally eliminate the problem and I never said it would

It's not going to turn insane people into sane people and I never said it would

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Straw Man
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« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2012, 07:10:37 PM »

How many of these incidents involved high cap magazines straw?

you tell me

there is Columbine (btw - those guys used explosives - remind me again of how many people died from the explosive)

Aurora

AZ

CT

and probably more if I went back and looked at the details

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« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2012, 07:13:09 PM »

you takes from ALL kinds of violent events (many where guns probalby weren't even available) and then try to use that as some kind of proof of what exactly.....?

I don't think this kid would have been able to kill 27 people without being stopped first if he did not have a gun

btw - I'm not suggesting nor have never suggested we can or should get rid of all guns

All I've ever said is that we can try to do some things to 1) lessen the incidents of gun violence and 2) lessen the loss of life when gun violence happens

THAT'S IT

THAT'S ALL I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS ENTIRE TIME

It's not going to totally eliminate the problem and I never said it would

It's not going to turn insane people into sane people and I never said it would




And forget about the 2nd Amendment in the process right? 
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« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2012, 07:13:48 PM »




Guns make it easier to kill people especially in those "heath-of- the-moment" situations ( not referring to this case).

More guns available= more deaths. Its that simple.

I wish you would just come out and say that the death people is worth it so you can have your guns. That would be called honesty and people respect that.

Your ridicilous argumentation to convince yourself that your choices is the only right ones is sad.

Own your opinions and actions.

If you think the right to bear guns outweighs the death people, just own it. Its your opinion and nobody can say its wrong. Its a choice and thats your right.
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tonymctones
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« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2012, 07:14:19 PM »

you takes from ALL kinds of violent events (many where guns probalby weren't even available) and then try to use that as some kind of proof of what exactly.....?

I don't think this kid would have been able to kill 27 people without being stopped first if he did not have a gun

btw - I'm not suggesting nor have never suggested we can or should get rid of all guns

All I've ever said is that we can try to do some things to 1) lessen the incidents of gun violence and 2) lessen the loss of life when gun violence happens

THAT'S IT

THAT'S ALL I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS ENTIRE TIME

It's not going to totally eliminate the problem and I never said it would

It's not going to turn insane people into sane people and I never said it would
so youre agreeing with me that youre not addressing the problem and that these crazy ppl even if they dont have access to fire arms are still going to do what they do and try and commit mass murder?

then youre agreeing that the problem isnt guns, its the crazy ppl with the intent to mass murder.

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Straw Man
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« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2012, 07:14:40 PM »


And forget about the 2nd Amendment in the process right? 

2nd amendment doesn't guarantee your right to any weapon that you want

please stop being a moron and if you need help with the Constitution then go find a lawyer to explain it to you
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« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2012, 07:14:57 PM »



Guns make it easier to kill people especially in those "heath-of- the-moment" situations ( not referring to this case).

More guns available= more deaths. Its that simple.

I wish you would just come out and say that the death people is worth it so you can have your guns. That would be called honesty and people respect that.

Your ridicilous argumentation to convince yourself that your choices is the only right ones is sad.

Own your opinions and actions.

If you think the right to bear guns outweighs the death people, just own it. Its your opinion and nobody can say its wrong. Its a choice and thats your right.


Millions upon millions of guns have been sold over the last 4 years wo a significant increase in crime.  Explain that,  
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tonymctones
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« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2012, 07:15:43 PM »

you tell me

there is Columbine (btw - those guys used explosives - remind me again of how many people died from the explosive)

Aurora

AZ

CT

and probably more if I went back and looked at the details
so you have 3....

how many were killed in OKC?

9/11?

to bad they didnt use guns in those incidents there would have been alot less killed.
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Straw Man
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« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2012, 07:17:36 PM »

so you have 3....

how many were killed in OKC?

9/11?

to bad they didnt use guns in those incidents there would have been alot less killed.

3 off the top of my head because I'm not going to go and read all the details of each case

let's bottom line this thing

should we do ANYTHING to try to prevent gun violence or limit death by guns by means of laws pertaining to the use of guns

yes or no

if no, why not
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« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2012, 07:18:57 PM »

3 off the top of my head because I'm not going to go and read all the details of each case

let's bottom line this thing

should we do ANYTHING to try to prevent gun violence or limit death by guns by means of laws pertaining to the use of guns

yes or no

if no, why not

Yes - incarcerate felons and violent thugs and gang members for longer sentences since those groups make up the far majority of gun crimes. 
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tonymctones
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« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2012, 07:22:16 PM »

3 off the top of my head because I'm not going to go and read all the details of each case

let's bottom line this thing

should we do ANYTHING to try to prevent gun violence or limit death by guns by means of laws pertaining to the use of guns

yes or no

if no, why not
sure absolutely we should

now lets bottom line this again

should we spend more time addressing the actual root of the problem or one of the more common expressions of the problem(even though it accounts for less deaths than other forms)?
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Straw Man
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« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2012, 07:22:51 PM »

Yes - incarcerate felons and violent thugs and gang members for longer sentences since those groups make up the far majority of gun crimes. 

yet no one on this list of mass murder using guns fit that description and most felons violent gang member will eventually wind up in jail

those are the not the people committing mass murder with guns (at least not in one day in a matter of a few minutes)

once again, you're just dumb as a box of rocks
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